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Apologies if this has already been asked somewhere. I tried Google, but nothing came up.
In the Monster Codex we are introduced to the class simple templates. These give creatures various class abilities that the normally wouldn't have without multiclassing into it, and taking multiple levels. While not perfect, it definitely makes it easier for GMs who just need a quick bump.
Question though. If you put on the template, can you later take class levels of the actual class later? Or multiclass into something else?
For example, could you go troll fighter creature/fighter 1 or troll fighter creature/barbarian 1? Or, do you remove the template altogether when you add class levels? Or, are you just supposed to increase the monster HD, and hope for the best?
Kind of like how driders and dragons can take sorcerer levels, or nymphs can take druid levels.
The problem I see with removing the templates altogether is that it could actually make them weaker, or ridiculously strong. Take the frost giant for example. Putting the fighter template on it makes it CR 11. It now has 4 combat feats (also counts as a 14 HD fighter for feat requirements), +4 Str, weapon training 3, and armor training 3. A frost giant fighter 2, has 15 point buy for stats, 2 combat feats, bravery +1, +2 BAB, +3 Fort, +2d10 +Con mod hp, and is also CR 11. It's not quite balanced. You'd have to remove two feats, increase the armor penalty by 3, and remove weapon training.
And please, don't answer with "If you're the GM, do whatever you feel like." That's not a real answer. This is a design question.
Contributor
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I would say no to combining the template and the class. In that case, I would suggest advancing the HD. Multiple class templates seem fine, though.
If you're converting a templated creature into a classed one, I'd suggest only doing so when you're adding a lot of levels. Remember - the players won't see any of the nuts and bolts. The details of the creature's feats and class features are almost certainly invisible to them.
The templates are for a quick and easy rebuild to give the monster the feel of the class w/o needing the full rebuild of adding class levels, doing ability adjustments, new feats, extra skill ranks, is it a key or non-key class (especially hard for new base classes or monsters from newer books).
If you are going to go through all the trouble of adding class levels, just add them. There is no need to use the template then, you already did all the hard work. Dropping one more level of Wizard or Monk on the creature when you already did 6 or 8 or whatever is much easier then adding the initial 6 levels was.
Obviously, some monsters will do better with some templates than others. In your example, yes a Frost Giant (which is in essence a Fighter already just done with racial HD (see also: Keyed classes)) will do very well with the Fighter creature template, seemingly more powerful than with actual fighter levels. It appears that you are skipping a step in adding the fighter levels to the Frost Giant. If you look at the "Advancing a Monster" section. On "Step 2: Add Class Levels": you take the monsters base stats and add +4, +4, +2, +2, -2 to their stats. Including the BAB bump from class levels, your Frost Giant Fighter 2 gets a +4 to hit (before feats) with all weapons vs. +2 on all and +3 on one weapon group. They also get a big boost to 3 other stats. Likely being added to Dex and Con, to boost AC and Hp, also probably Wis to help that will save. Also don't underestimate the extra 2d10+14 hp (+4 con, average of 25hp), staying upright for an extra round is worth much more than a +1 to hit.
That being said, not all templates will be equally good for all creatures. Fiendish template is great for a White Dragon, since they get Fire Resistance, protecting from their one weakness. Young template really boosts a shadow, since +2 Dex and small size bonus makes their touch attack even more likely to hit. As with all monster adjustments, you need to look at it and see if the boost pushes it up another CR on the Monster Statistics by CR table.
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Just wanted to point out that I didn't skip a step. Those array bonuses you pointed out equal the 15 point but I mentioned.
Also, where are getting the +2 and +3? It's got 14 HD. It'll have +5 to hit and damage with the first weapon group, which guaranteed will be their main weapon. Be higher damage if it's two-handed.
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When you say "can you later take class levels..." do you mean:
1) Add class levels immediately after applying the SCT during creature design time
or
2) Add class levels some time in the future of the career path for the creature with SCT? i.e., Creature with SCT that gains a level in fighter after delving in a dungeon?for 2), I wouldn't advance NPCs like PCs. I would make each stage of the creature's career a separate creature.
for 1), I don't see a problem in doing so, but as with all custom creatures, I would compare it with other creatures in the Bestiary before assignign a final CR. I would use the template CR increases as a guideline to find other similar Bestiary creatures as a point of comparison, but I would not say "This frost giant fighter creature fighter 2 is CR 13 because the Template CR increases say so."
I mean, as per my examples. Like the fighter creature/fighter 1 and the fighter creature/barbarian 1. Doesn't really matter when they get the classes though. It's a design thing. It's fine if you don't want to advanced NPCs like PCs, but this question is meant to cover every basis. Like, what if you take Leadership? You have to advance it.
A frost giant fighter creature/fighter 2 should be at least CR 13. It counts as a 16th level fighter with 3/4 BAB. I wouldn't even bother looking at other Bestiary creatures because even Paizo can't stick to their own rules. If anything's getting compared, it's the Creation chart.I don't quite understand how you refer to the +4/4/2/2/0/-2 array as "15 point buy for stats". Firstly, the +4/4/2/2/0/-2 array applied to a human base stat 10/10/10/10/10/10 array is only 12 point buy. Secondly, monsters have stat distributions that are vastly different from the 10/10/10/10/10/10 array that can make applying the array worth way more than 15 points.
Also, when adding class levels to the Frost Giant, remember they still get generic feats every odd level. So adding 2 levels in any class (including fighter) would give it another generic feat.
Who cares about human base being 10? Monsters don't have that. Monster stats are: three even, three odd. So, when I say 15 point buy when the stats are 10/10/10/11/11/11 to make it 14/14/12/13/9/11, it's exactly 15 point buy. Now, you could argue that it's actually 17 point buy because you'd minmax it so that the +4 always gets put on the 11. That's fair, but it's still not "way more" than 15 points.
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The 15 point buy may be bothering you because of the way you think about it. I'm wondering if Pathfinder is your first system. A frost giant is not no 63 point array. I need to explain this because it's bothering me that you think it's this way.
Here's how it breaks down: all monsters are supposed to be 3 odd, 3 even. That's the Pathfinder rule (not that they always follow that). A frost giant is from 3.5 D&D. Back then you could play as monster races using the Savage Species book. However, you had to determine what a monster's base statistics were and divided that over all of the HD a creature had. You did this by subtracting 10 from the even numbers and 11 from the odd ones. This gives your racial bonuses. Which of course is modified by the fact that they're larger or smaller than medium. So, for frost giant, they +18 Str, -2 Dex, +10 Con, +4 Wis. this is spread over 14 HD, and the base race stats (much like you'd see in the Advanced Race Guide).
As for "design", I mean for publication. I mean for figuring things out to makes NPC monstrous cohorts through Leadership. I mean for player characters that are monsters to not seem weaker than PCs and have to try figure out when they level up vs when a standard PC levels up because CR means nothing after a while. I mean for monsters to not seem more powerful with the template as opposed to adding two class levels.
I have a similar (set of) question(s). If I use the Amalgam Creature template to combine a Monster creature and a creature that falls into the category of PC race, is that the same thing as if I had just given the race features of the monster? (In this case, I want to combine Rakshasa & Samsaran to get a result representing a rakshasa whose cycle kf reincarnation shifted when it reincarnated into a samsaran, but due to its awareness of the cycle combined with the rakshasa's malevolence, caused a rakshasa to merely genuinely take on the life of a samsaran with its memories intact.)
Also, where would I go to find homebrew examples of Simple Templates for non-core classes?