Psychic bloodline sorcerer - is it still an "arcane spellcasting class"?


Rules Questions

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It is nice to get an official answer regarding Improved Familiar.


I appreciate the answers (and I notice that the FAQs as of late are fairly lengthy and complex; I actually had to re-read a few sentences to see if I understood the meaning correctly), though this does raise an unusual precedent from the Psychic Bloodline corollary; that is, Archetypes count as their own, unique favored class. This means that technically, if your Favored Class is the vanilla Fighter, and not Mobile Fighter, as an example, and you took levels in Mobile Fighter, you would not be eligible for a Favored Class Bonus, because your Favored Class is the vanilla Fighter, and not the Mobile Fighter. (Also, before people spout the "FAQs only do what they say," this is an example that is explicitly paraphrased within the Psychic Bloodline FAQ, so...)

Another interesting thing of note, is that according to the Psychic Bloodline FAQ, if you have a Psychic Bloodline Sorcerer, he would not be eligible for the likes of the Expanded Arcana feat, several Racial Favored Class Bonuses, slews of Magic Items, etc. Basically, anything that requires or improves Arcane spellcasting, does not apply to Psychic Bloodline Sorcerers in any manner, since they are treated as having Psychic spellcasting, and have all of the rules and restrictions from that apply instead of the Arcane spellcasting.


I don't see anything in the FAQ that is saying what you suggest, Darksol. Do you care to give some citations.

Edit: I was referring to your first paragraph. Your second paragraph sounds right to me.


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Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
I appreciate the answers (and I notice that the FAQs as of late are fairly lengthy and complex; I actually had to re-read a few sentences to see if I understood the meaning correctly), though this does raise an unusual precedent from the Psychic Bloodline corollary; that is, Archetypes count as their own, unique favored class. This means that technically, if your Favored Class is the vanilla Fighter, and not Mobile Fighter, as an example, and you took levels in Mobile Fighter, you would not be eligible for a Favored Class Bonus, because your Favored Class is the vanilla Fighter, and not the Mobile Fighter. (Also, before people spout the "FAQs only do what they say," this is an example that is explicitly paraphrased within the Psychic Bloodline FAQ, so...)

An archetipe is still that class, what changes are the specific characteristics.

A psychic sorcerer is still a sorcerer, but is not an arcane caster. So it still qualifies for anything that calls out sorcerers

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Another interesting thing of note, is that according to the Psychic Bloodline FAQ, if you have a Psychic Bloodline Sorcerer, he would not be eligible for the likes of the Expanded Arcana feat, several Racial Favored Class Bonuses, slews of Magic Items, etc. Basically, anything that requires or improves Arcane spellcasting, does not apply to Psychic Bloodline Sorcerers in any manner, since they are treated as having Psychic spellcasting, and have all of the rules and restrictions from that apply instead of the Arcane spellcasting.

Yes, they can't take anything that explicitly requires arcane spellcasting, but can take stuff that requires psychic casting

On a side note, Expanded Arcana still works as it only requires spontaneous casting


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I like the Familiar FAQ up until the tumor familiar. Why can't further experimentation further improve the tumor familiar? That just doesn't make any sense to me.


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Azten wrote:
I like the Familiar FAQ up until the tumor familiar. Why can't further experimentation further improve the tumor familiar? That just doesn't make any sense to me.

It leads to some weird situations, like a being of Elysium agreeing to manifest as a tumorous lump of flesh.


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Azten wrote:
I like the Familiar FAQ up until the tumor familiar. Why can't further experimentation further improve the tumor familiar? That just doesn't make any sense to me.

It may be for some balance reason, but I can't think what that could be. It actually seems like a downgrade for the tumor, because you would no longer be getting the familiar bonus, while attached.


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Argh. Fare well to my celestial figment flying Cat.


Bardess wrote:
Argh. Fare well to my celestial figment flying Cat.

Why?


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The Figment archetype replaces Speak with others of its kind, so such a familiar is incompatible with Improved Familiar.


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Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
this does raise an unusual precedent from the Psychic Bloodline corollary; that is, Archetypes count as their own, unique favored class. This means that technically, if your Favored Class is the vanilla Fighter, and not Mobile Fighter, as an example, and you took levels in Mobile Fighter, you would not be eligible for a Favored Class Bonus, because your Favored Class is the vanilla Fighter, and not the Mobile Fighter. (Also, before people spout the "FAQs only do what they say," this is an example that is explicitly paraphrased within the Psychic Bloodline FAQ, so...)

Umm... Not quite, I'd say.

The FAQ isn't talking about FCB per se, it is creating a hypothetical example using "an alternate racial trait restrict[ing] your favored class bonus to “a single class that grants proficiency in heavy armor”", in other words an external restriction upon the FCB mechanic, not the FCB itself.

FCB *itself* doesn't care about Archetypes at all, you aren't required to specify any Archetypes/Vanilla ahead of time for FCB (even in the FAQ example you aren't specifying "Vanilla" ahead of time: ALL archetypes/class combos that get Heavy Armor Proficiency qualify for the example "alternative race trait" rule). You don't specify anything but the base class when choosing FCB, and all archetypes of a class do count as that class for FCB, even if the don't qualify for the external "alt race trait" limitation upon FCB given in the example.

Honestly I think the "alt race trait restricting FCB" example in FAQ is very confusing, since AFAIK no such rules exist in the game where external limitations are placed upon FCB. I do believe several FCB *are* functionally dependent on not swapping out a class feature by Archetype, but that is because they function off of that class feature, so you can technically still take the FCB even if an Archetype removed that feature, but it isn't going to do you any good (thus, you're better of taking HP or skill bonus, which you do qualify for).

Quote:
Another interesting thing of note, is that according to the Psychic Bloodline FAQ, if you have a Psychic Bloodline Sorcerer, he would not be eligible for the likes of the Expanded Arcana feat, several Racial Favored Class Bonuses, slews of Magic Items, etc.

Yup.


Entryhazard wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
I appreciate the answers (and I notice that the FAQs as of late are fairly lengthy and complex; I actually had to re-read a few sentences to see if I understood the meaning correctly), though this does raise an unusual precedent from the Psychic Bloodline corollary; that is, Archetypes count as their own, unique favored class. This means that technically, if your Favored Class is the vanilla Fighter, and not Mobile Fighter, as an example, and you took levels in Mobile Fighter, you would not be eligible for a Favored Class Bonus, because your Favored Class is the vanilla Fighter, and not the Mobile Fighter. (Also, before people spout the "FAQs only do what they say," this is an example that is explicitly paraphrased within the Psychic Bloodline FAQ, so...)

An archetipe is still that class, what changes are the specific characteristics.

A psychic sorcerer is still a sorcerer, but is not an arcane caster. So it still qualifies for anything that calls out sorcerers.

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Another interesting thing of note, is that according to the Psychic Bloodline FAQ, if you have a Psychic Bloodline Sorcerer, he would not be eligible for the likes of the Expanded Arcana feat, several Racial Favored Class Bonuses, slews of Magic Items, etc. Basically, anything that requires or improves Arcane spellcasting, does not apply to Psychic Bloodline Sorcerers in any manner, since they are treated as having Psychic spellcasting, and have all of the rules and restrictions from that apply instead of the Arcane spellcasting.

Yes, they can't take anything that explicitly requires arcane spellcasting, but can take stuff that requires psychic casting

On a side note, Expanded Arcana still works as it only requires spontaneous casting

I've said it before and I'll say it again; while I appreciate the extra brevity and thoroughness of the FAQ, it really makes me scratch my head sometimes, because even after reading and re-reading it, I'm seeing things that I don't notice before, and I end up coming out with a different interpretation every time I read and re-read it.

Also, misleading feat title is misleading. Should've been called "Expanded Spell Knowledge."


Quandary wrote:
I do believe several FCB *are* functionally dependent on not swapping out a class feature by Archetype, but that is because they function off of that class feature, so you can technically still take the FCB even if an Archetype removed that feature, but it isn't going to do you any good

Actually, by the rules, you cannot take any favored class bonus that modifies a class ability until the level you have that class ability.

For example, a kobold rogue has the FCB of adding +1/2 to the AC bonus they gain via trap/danger sense against traps. Until they are level 3, they cannot take this favored class bonus. If they took an archetype that replaces trap/danger sense, they never gain the class feature and therefore can never put points into an FCB that enhances it.


Saethori wrote:
The Figment archetype replaces Speak with others of its kind, so such a familiar is incompatible with Improved Familiar.

True, but they have been incompatible since the Figment archetype was created. If they were already houseruling that away before the FAQ, that shouldn't be a problem now. I'm Wondering what new problem the FAQ introduced.


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Many GMs turned a blind eye to it, as the rules regarding familiar archetypes and improved familiars were nonexistent before now.

Now that there's solid rules prohibiting it, it is now firmly in house rules territory, rather than simply murky rules water territory.


Saethori wrote:

Many GMs turned a blind eye to it, as the rules regarding familiar archetypes and improved familiars were nonexistent before now.

Now that there's solid rules prohibiting it, it is now firmly in house rules territory, rather than simply murky rules water territory.

Pretty much.

Improved Familiar was in a weird position where it kinda sounded vaguely as if it was trading things like archetypes do, but since Improved Familiar is in no way, shape or form an archetype it isn't subject to the rules regarding archetypes being unable to replace the same feature. This puts the Improved Familiar + archetype combo in a gray region where there are no rules which prohibit it or explain how to trade away a non-existent familiar feature. Its totally undefined by RAW. The FAQ removes all that ambiguity and outright says "treat the feat as if it is an archetype".

As for the precedents that the Psychic FAQ set, as far as I can tell it suggests this:

When asked to choose something that fulfills certain conditions, you can choose literally anything so long as those conditions are fulfilled at the appropriate time. Selections aren't restricted to an explicitly defined rules element which fulfill the required conditions. They can be other rules elements which would not fulfill the conditions normally but do in a specific case because of an interaction with other rules elements.

For instance, if asked to pick a spontaneous casting class before having selected your class, you could choose the magus, and this would be totally fine if you took the Eldritch Scion Archetype (which gives spontaneous casting). If there was a hypothetical archetype which gave the Magus divine casting and stacked with Scion, then a [divine archetype] Eldritch Scion Magus would fulfill the conditions of an ability requiring a class that can Spontaneously cast Divine spells. Thus, the Magus would be a legal choice for that ability, even if the ability required selecting the Magus class before taking levels in the Magus Class or gaining the abilities which would make Magus a legal choice. The ability just wouldn't work until the Magus class fulfilled the required conditions.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Saethori wrote:
Quandary wrote:
I do believe several FCB *are* functionally dependent on not swapping out a class feature by Archetype, but that is because they function off of that class feature, so you can technically still take the FCB even if an Archetype removed that feature, but it isn't going to do you any good

Actually, by the rules, you cannot take any favored class bonus that modifies a class ability until the level you have that class ability.

For example, a kobold rogue has the FCB of adding +1/2 to the AC bonus they gain via trap/danger sense against traps. Until they are level 3, they cannot take this favored class bonus. If they took an archetype that replaces trap/danger sense, they never gain the class feature and therefore can never put points into an FCB that enhances it.

Source? I'd believe it but I've never heard anything about that before.


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thewastedwalrus wrote:
Source? I'd believe it but I've never heard anything about that before.

Source is Occult Adventures, which reworded how favored class bonuses worked and included that restriction.

Occult Adventures wrote:
If an alternate favored class option modifies a class feature or ability, it can’t be taken before the character has that class feature or ability. For example, if a class gains a class feature at 6th level, a character couldn’t take a racial favored class option that applies to that class feature until 6th level, even if the benefit from that option wouldn’t be high enough to add a bonus until a later level.

Quote may be imprecise; I do not have the PDF to quote from at the moment.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Saethori wrote:
thewastedwalrus wrote:
Source? I'd believe it but I've never heard anything about that before.
Source is Occult Adventures.

+1

Which answer officially how things were designed. There were several unofficial responses that FCB worked this way before OA and PFS had a official "the rules work this way per design team" posts.

Putting it in OA makes it official.


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Although that doesn't seem to be the original design intention, by the given examples. So, it's the current intent, but not the original intent.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Ok, thanks!


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Ah f!~*! Now I have to redo the favored class bonuses for over 150 characters. What page? What paragraph?

Liberty's Edge

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Ravingdork wrote:
Ah f%!@! Now I have to redo the favored class bonuses for over 150 characters. What page? What paragraph?

Page 84, paragraph 4, last two sentences.

Also, right here

"If an alternate favored class option modifies a class feature or ability, it can't be taken before the character has that class feature or ability. For example, if a class gains a class feature at 6th level, a character couldn't take a racial favored class option that applies to that class feature until 6th level, even if the benefit from that option wouldn't be high enough to add a bonus until a later level."


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Thanks. So basically human paladins can never increase their energy resistance, since they never had it to begin with. Gotcha.

(Lame rule is lame.)


Saethori wrote:

Many GMs turned a blind eye to it, as the rules regarding familiar archetypes and improved familiars were nonexistent before now.

Now that there's solid rules prohibiting it, it is now firmly in house rules territory, rather than simply murky rules water territory.

I didn't realize there was so much variation on this issue. In the threads I've followed there has always been a very strong consensus on the issue of applying archetypes to Improved Familiars. The Tumor Familiar issue on the other hand has always seemed to have significant support on both sides.


Ravingdork wrote:

Thanks. So basically human paladins can never increase their energy resistance, since they never had it to begin with. Gotcha.

(Lame rule is lame.)

???

That's not what the rules say at all.

The Human Favored Class Bonus for Paladins doesn't apply to a Paladin class feature, so the quoted rule is completely irrelevant.

Scenarios where the rule would apply are things like a human gaining 1/6th of a rogue talent with their racial FCB. Since the rogue doesn't get talents till 2nd level, they can't take the racial FCB at first level. If you want to talk about paladins specifically, FCBs involving auras can't be taken till 3rd level, FCBs involving Lay on Hands can't be taken till 3rd level, FCBs involving spellcasting can't be taken until 4th, and so on. FCBs which give their own unique thing and don't ride off existing class features can be taken at any time.


Ravingdork wrote:

Thanks. So basically human paladins can never increase their energy resistance, since they never had it to begin with. Gotcha.

(Lame rule is lame.)

That's addressing the still questionable part. How to determine if you are increasing a class feature or just adding an ability? For instance, the warpriest has a FCB for a bonus combat feat. They also have a class ability for a bonus combat feat. So, is the FCB reliant on the class feature? The same could be asked for slayers and their bonus talent. Is getting a bonus talent reliant on having the talent class feature?


Ravingdork wrote:

Thanks. So basically human paladins can never increase their energy resistance, since they never had it to begin with. Gotcha.

(Lame rule is lame.)

You can increase it from zero. Which you start with. Not really a good example.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Snowblind wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:

Thanks. So basically human paladins can never increase their energy resistance, since they never had it to begin with. Gotcha.

(Lame rule is lame.)

???

That's not what the rules say at all.

The Human Favored Class Bonus for Paladins doesn't apply to a Paladin class feature, so the quoted rule is completely irrelevant.

Scenarios where the rule would apply are things like a human gaining 1/6th of a rogue talent with their racial FCB. Since the rogue doesn't get talents till 2nd level, they can't take the racial FCB at first level. If you want to talk about paladins specifically, FCBs involving auras can't be taken till 3rd level, FCBs involving Lay on Hands can't be taken till 3rd level, FCBs involving spellcasting can't be taken until 4th, and so on. FCBs which give their own unique thing and don't ride off existing class features can be taken at any time.

It says class feature OR ability though. That covers quite a lot of non-class abilities.


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"If an alternate favored class option modifies a class feature or ability, it can't be taken before the character has that class feature or ability."

So if the FCB doesn't modify a class feature or ability, then it can be taken at any time.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Ah. Thanks!


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Although it's still questionable what counts as modifying an ability. Is gaining a new slayer talent modifying the slayer's talent ability? Or is it an independent ability on its own?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

I've been playing a psychic bloodline sorcerer, and had just assumed that you still qualify as an "arcane caster class" with regards to items, feats, etc, even though your spells are technically psychic. Based on the FAQ, I'm inclined to think that his ring of spell knowledge is now useless for him. Luckily, none of the metamagic feats seem to care what kind of spell your casting. Nor do spell focus or penetration. Do wands now require a UMD? Scrolls?


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Agodeshalf wrote:
Do wands now require a UMD? Scrolls?

There are psychic scrolls, potions, wands, etc.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

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In PFS, wands/scrolls are "all types". In normal Pathfinder rules, you'd need UMD to wand/scroll an arcane spell if you are psychic caster.


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Gisher wrote:
Agodeshalf wrote:
Do wands now require a UMD? Scrolls?
There are psychic scrolls, potions, wands, etc.
James Risner wrote:
In PFS, wands/scrolls are "all types". In normal Pathfinder rules, you'd need UMD to wand/scroll an arcane spell if you are psychic caster.

Even in normal rules Wands aren't typed


Wheeeee! My psychic sorcerer is ready to be revisited and re-enter the PFS scene.

Thanks Paizo team!

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