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I think it's good Paizo tries to make them work, in favor of diversity and teamplay. Browsing through the books, you can find quite a few classes / archetypes specialized on them:
The thing is, the more diverse a party is, the less use they will have for Teamwork feats.
Outflank is early on my list for almost any fighting type and the other martial types in the party are always more than happy to oblige. Two or three with Outflank, Combat Reflexes, and high critical range weapons and/or some high critical multiplier weapons can be lethal in a game of volleyball on either side of the bad guy.
Those combat advantages ARE there without the teamwork feats... The feats do what they should do... give coordinated teamwork the advantage it should get over incidental pairups.
Yeah, look at the great advantage of shooting someone threatened in melee by a friend. You get a -4 "bonus" to attack, and Coordinated Shot covers that with an oh-so-overpowered +1.
Or at the +0 advantage of charging someone that's already been hit after a charge from your ally.And so on.
Except for flanking and aiding another, I don't remember any tactical advantage you can achieve when pairing with an ally without having teamwork feats.
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Those combat advantages ARE there without the teamwork feats... The feats do what they should do... give coordinated teamwork the advantage it should get over incidental pairups.Yeah, look at the great advantage of shooting someone threatened in melee by a friend. You get a -4 "bonus" to attack, and Coordinated Shot covers that with an oh-so-overpowered +1.
Or at the +0 advantage of charging someone that's already been hit after a charge from your ally.
And so on.Except for flanking and aiding another, I don't remember any tactical advantage you can achieve when pairing with an ally without having teamwork feats.
Coordinated Charge is awesome, I don't know what you are on about. Set up as a Barbarian with pounce with coordinated charge, on your turn you can charge and hit for all of your attacks. You alley with CC can charge as an immediate action, and then on their turn they are right next to the opponent and can full attack them on their turn. This is even better if your alley holds their action until your barbarian charges.
Then its a one two punch.
Stealth synergy is vital to a build I call the "Shock and Awe party". Every character is built to be at least decent at stealth. If you are only taking one stealth feat and the whole group is taking it, then Stealth Synergy is by far the best. When you have 5+ rolls and you get to take the best one, the average is 17.15. With your base roll that high, you don't need to hit the skill hard or spend many more feats to be decent, and the specialist can get some huge numbers.
Since everybody is sneaky, you usually get surprise. Since sneaky characters are usually Dex-based characters, initiatives are high. So the fight goes - surprise round - range characters and spellcasters attack, melee characters tumble into position. 1st round, everybody dies. Okay, maybe not everybody, but you can usually take down several foes before they have a turn.
This type of party favors some types of characters more than others. "I need seven rounds to get my buff suite going" sissies need not apply. Sneak attack is good, and most people will consider dipping or VMCing to get it. Barbarians rock because the quick fights conserve rage rounds. You don't need to jump through hoops to rage-cycle. Urban barbarians help those who want more dex.
That's the post I was looking for, thanks!why dont people like Teamwork feats?Teamwork (TW) feats were originally balanced around the classes that can sidestep the drawbacks of TW feats, such as inquisitors and cavaliers. Since Pathfinder doesn't really advertise the fact that TW feats are primarily intended for those classes, most people will evaluate the TW feat on its own merits, and usually find them extremely lacking.
Happy to help. :)
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Target of Opportunity doesn't need you to have two archers - it can work equally well with two ranged specialists in the party.
One could be a caster who specializes in rays (as long as they take point blank shot which can be part of many ray specialist's builds)
or one can be a gunslinger
(the ray specialist won't be able to take attacks of opportunity - unless they specialized in a spell that allow them multiple attacks in multiple rounds - or if they also kept a crossbow or other ranged weapon at the ready but done well you can have folks who combine arcane and regular attacks dishing out additional attacks frequently - and focusing their fire which is often a good tactic anyway)
Having two "ranged specialists" is the same as having two "archers" in his example. In a four person party if there are two ranged specialists then where's the melee, control, buff, etc. Now if you have bigger parties then you're more likely to overlap in "specialists".
Escape Route may be the single greatest tactical positioning feat in the game. Let me just negate AoOs in squares adjacent to your allies.
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Teamwork feats are baller for a Hunter. Allow me to post my hunter's feat list and my animal companion's feat list...
Hunter: Weapon Proficiency: Falcata, Power Attack, Outflank, Combat Expertise, Pack Flanking, Boon Companion, Weapon Finesse, Precise Strike, Dodge, Escape Route
AC: Light Armor Proficiency, Power Attack, Outflank, Pack Tactics, Narrow Frame, Precise Strike, Escape Route, Dodge
My AC is a Large Ape (gorilla) and my hunter is Hunter 6/Rogue 2.
I do a sword and board build, so I get 1 attack with +10 (1d8+4|17-20x3) while my animal companion does 3 attacks at 1d6+8.
Because of all the teamwork feats, I flank a target if both my AC and I are adjacent to each other and threaten it, for a +4 to hit. I get 2d6 and my AC gets 1d6. With smart movement options I wont provoke AoOs.
At level 11 I will get 5d6 extra damage against most targets. If I drop lead blades on myself and crit, I'll do 11d6+30 damage (power attacking), AC of 30, and I'll have skills out the wazzu. While the pack flanking doesn't make up entirely for my less than stellar Str, BAB and attacks per round, it does pretty well and I nearly always get the bonuses. Teamwork feats turned a meh melee class into a pretty effective build... and I don't believe I've chosen feats optimally at all.
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The pattern here is that some Teamwork Feats are great if you can ignore the prerequisites that make them onerous (the requirement that more than one character has to have them) and highly situational (you must be correctly positioned relative to another character with the same feat). One way to get around them is with class features, the other is being the DM. If you don't have a workaround, they remain onerous and highly situational, one shorthand for which is "useless".
As someone playing a Hunter, I gotta say... they work pretty damn well.
:D
Put it on a class without a dedicated companion and see how well that goes.
(Solo Tactics is a dedicated companion for the purpose of this discussion.)
Oh don't get me wrong, outside of getting them for free, I wouldn't touch them with a ten foot folding pole.
I think it's good Paizo tries to make them work, in favor of diversity and teamplay. Browsing through the books, you can find quite a few classes / archetypes specialized on them:The thing is, the more diverse a party is, the less use they will have for Teamwork feats.
That's a valid point. But while a party of three or four PCs can be very diverse, one of five or six will show more overlap (in average) - meaning more use for teamwork feats.
And you could also argue the other way round: If the party is less diverse (because of player preferences, campaign setting etc.), teamwork feats can be a strong boost. And in fact you might need them, since the less diverse party is weaker in average.
That said, today I found the ISR feats to be online on D20PFSRD, and at least some teamwork feats look interesting.
The pattern here is that some Teamwork Feats are great if you can ignore the prerequisites that make them onerous (the requirement that more than one character has to have them) and highly situational (you must be correctly positioned relative to another character with the same feat). One way to get around them is with class features, the other is being the DM. If you don't have a workaround, they remain onerous and highly situational, one shorthand for which is "useless".
Yep, you pretty much summarized this entire thread.
If you stop to think about it , teamwork feats are actually quite "good" as far as ideas go.
Sure , they are mostly made for a few classes that have special features to work with them , but they are still open for other classes even if they werent directly meant for them.
Example is pack flanking , which i do believe most agree is a good feat for a melee hunter , like others said it still can be "useful" for a ranger/druid even if it is costy to them , now compare that to good feats that require bardic performance or to good masterpieces... all of which will only be useful for a bard/skald.
If you start to think that teamwork feats are pretty much "class features" , that are open to others classes at higher cost , they dont seem so bad.
PS: I quite enjoy many of those feats meant for bards/skalds so im not complaining or anything about them :P.
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Okay, hive mind...
I want your advice on teamwork feats that would work for a paired PFS build. My boyfriend and I have been threatening to do the Blues Brothers as half-orcs for a long time now. I have a Averakan Arbiter Bard boon -- a bard that gets free teamwork feats, but NOT solo tactics unless I use a bardic performance. I'd rather Inspire Courage.
We were thinking that he'd play an Inquisitor, or something else that got teamwork feats, so that we could use teamwork feats with gleeful abandon. We'd both be strong, melee types using falchions or battle axes.
"We're getting the band back together!" What would be quality teamwork feats for a pair of righteous agents of musical chaos? We've now covered why teamwork feats often suck. Now, help us use them to be awesome.
Remember, this is a holy thing. "We're on a mission from God!"
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Inner Sea Races gives us ~50 more team work feats.
They.
Are.
Utter.
Garbage.
(TAUG)
Not only do they require two people to spend feats on them, many have additional feat prerequisites as well. What's worse than trying to convince your buddy to take a feat they don't want? Trying to convince them to take three feats they don't want.
Furthermore, most are highly situational and aren't likely to see frequent use even if you do have a partner.
Finally, when you do strong arm your buddy into taking all those feats, and the circumstances are just right for you to two to use the feats, the effect usually isn't any better than any other feat--and oftentimes are much worse!
So why go through all the trouble?
(This post is in regards to the Inner Sea Races team work feats in particular; other team work feats out there aren't half bad half the time.)
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Okay, hive mind...
I want your advice on teamwork feats that would work for a paired PFS build. My boyfriend and I have been threatening to do the Blues Brothers as half-orcs for a long time now. I have a Averakan Arbiter Bard boon -- a bard that gets free teamwork feats, but NOT solo tactics unless I use a bardic performance. I'd rather Inspire Courage.
We were thinking that he'd play an Inquisitor, or something else that got teamwork feats, so that we could use teamwork feats with gleeful abandon. We'd both be strong, melee types using falchions or battle axes.
"We're getting the band back together!" What would be quality teamwork feats for a pair of righteous agents of musical chaos? We've now covered why teamwork feats often suck. Now, help us use them to be awesome.
Remember, this is a holy thing. "We're on a mission from God!"
Outflank and Paired Opportunists are usually the go-to feats for people working in melee together. Lookout would also have value for the two of you, to give you both more chances to function during the surprise round together.
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What is your opinion of Butterfly's sting?
Edit:
Oh! It's not a teamwork feat, is it? Why did I think it was teamwork?
What is your opinion of Butterfly's sting?
Edit:
Oh! It's not a teamwork feat, is it? Why did I think it was teamwork?
My personal feeling is Butterfly sting is awesome when combined with handing off a guaranteed crit to a Magus. Potentially 20d6 damage from a 1st level spell at 10th level. Also works well with ability damage type effects.
As for other teamwork combos, I have limited experience, but I do find the Skald + Amplified Rage + Warleader's Rage is really, really good for Half-orcs.
With only 2 characters, both would need to dip Barbarian or Bloodrager, although by 3rd you could have Amplified Rage on both, plus Warleader's Rage on the Inquisitor (requires charisma 13) and Skald's Vigor on the skald for fast healing 8 while singing at level 3. The Skald would also provide duration to the Inquisitor, who wouldn't need to take levels in barbarian after.
So at 3rd you have:
Barbarian 1/Skald 2
Barbarian 1/Inquisitor 2
At 3rd level you have 11+Cha rounds of raging song, which when you start adjacent gives +8 Str/+8 Con, and gives your Skald fast healing 8. Then Warleader's rage lets you move up to 30' apart and keep the bonuses (the Inquisitor actually keeps them all the time as he's always within 30' of himself).
From there you can start adding on things like Paired Opportunist and Outflank. Although, to be honest, your melee to-hit would already be through the roof on AoOs. +4 to hit from rage, +4 from flanking, +4 for attack of opportunity. Thats +12 not considering anything else.
However, that may not be the flavor you are looking for, as thats perhaps a bit on the heavy metal side.
Alot of the really powerful melee combinations require full BAB classes. For example, Paired Opportunist (teamwork), Combat Reflexes, Improved Critical (Falchion or Bardiche) (requires BAB +8), Seize the Moment (teamwork). With a Falchion, every 3/10 attacks threatens a critical, which means a bonus pair of 2 attacks when confirmed. Which have a chance of generating more criticals for more AoOs, until you run out of AoOs from combat reflexes.
Sadly for a Bard/Inquisitor pair this is out of reach until 11th (and even then I don't think the feats work out quite right to get everything at 11th).
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I was looking specifically at a bard because I LOVE bards and because I have a boon for the Averaka Arbiter which grants bonus team work feats at 2, 6 and 10.
I had not considered a Skald at all.
I was not planning on Improved Critical, but just investing in a Keen Weapon. The amplified rage does sound interesting, and I agree that a rage mechanic would fit the Blues Brothers thematically. I was just looking for a way to play the Averaka archetype that I'd been granted access to.
I was looking specifically at a bard because I LOVE bards and because I have a boon for the Averaka Arbiter which grants bonus team work feats at 2, 6 and 10.
I had not considered a Skald at all.
I was not planning on Improved Critical, but just investing in a Keen Weapon. The amplified rage does sound interesting, and I agree that a rage mechanic would fit the Blues Brothers thematically. I was just looking for a way to play the Averaka archetype that I'd been granted access to.
For a pure Bard/Inquistor pair in melee, you could go with something like Paired Opportunist (2nd level Bard and 3rd level Inquisitor bonus teamwork feats) + Broken Wing gambit with the 6th level bonus feats. If you both trigger broken wing gambit, if either is attacked, you both get an AoO.
You could also grab the Tusked trait, and a polearm like a Bardiche to threaten a larger area. Combine with Combat reflexes as your 3rd level feat. That would also perhaps lead towards using the bard spell Featherstep and difficult terrain with reach weapons at low levels. Not sure if inquisitors have a spell which can generate difficult terrain off hand.
You could also try staggering tough enemies, say with the Stricken Heart spell (2nd level inquisitor). On a crit it lasts 1 minute, no save. Which could be generated with Butterfly sting. There are a couple debuff touch attacks which last 1 minute when the touch is critical if you want to try going the sting route.
At the very least the spell Command with "Approach" option could generate some AoOs.
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Huh. How would amplified rage work with Battlesong of the People's Revolt? Could I potentially give this feat to any raging ally, orc or not?
Huh. How would amplified rage work with Battlesong of the People's Revolt? Could I potentially give this feat to any raging ally, orc or not?
Yes you could give amplified rage. It specifically notes the shared feat ignores prerequisites. Amplified rage would then activate if they were raging and adjacent to another rager.
However, does anyone know if you can combine a bardic performance/raging song with a masterpiece? Otherwise it would only work characters who can already rage. But yes, any character who can rage, and meets the conditions would benefit.
You'd have to play a Barbarian or Bloodrager/Bard or Skald, but you could start doing it at level 5. However, it doesn't strike me as that great as its much cheaper in resources/opportunity costs/action economy to just dip 1 level in Barbarian and be a Half-orc to get the feat, and have it work from level 1 or 3 onwards.
Except it's not clear if you can have a rage song and Battlesong of the People's Revolt at the same time. I believe you cannot do both at once. That the battlesong is a new performance and counts as a performance for limiting in having two up at once.
I posted a Warpriest build a while back that went:
1. +Focus Weapon: Scythe / Nature Soul / Combat Reflexes
3. Power Attack / +WP: Improved Drag
5. Animal Ally: Wolf
6. +WP: Greater Drag / +WPFCB: Paired Opportunists
7. Boon Companion
9. Improved Spell Sharing / +WP: Quick Drag
11. Coordinated Maneuvers
12. +WP: Greater Weapon Focus: Scythe
13. Tandem Trip
Drag Bonuses: Bred for War, Improved/Greater Drag, Weapon Focus/Greater, Divine Favor (+Fates Favored), Scythe Enhancement +Sacred Weapon, Coordinated Maneuvers
Wolf
5. Combat Reflexes / Weapon Focus: Bite
7. *+1INT* / Paired Opportunists
8. Improved Spell Sharing
9. *+1CON* / *Iterative Bite*
10. Coordinated Maneuvers
13. Tandem Trip
Trip Bonuses: Weapon Focus, Divine Favor (+Fate's Favored), Coordinated Maneuvers, Tandem Trip