Guts from Berserk


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I'm putting together ideas for a two-handed weapon Fighter based on the character Guts, from Berserk. Basically he just wields a big sword and cuts down everyone in battle, so it's a pretty simple concept to build. If I wanted to get overly complicated, I'd probably include some Sunder support since he tends to chop straight through armor when he kills someone, but I'm not too worried about that.

I have the following feats in mind for offense:

Power Attack
Weapon Focus
Weapon Specialization
Greater Weapon Focus
Greater Weapon Specialization
Improved Critical
Cleave
Great Cleave
Furious Focus
Step Up
Following Step
Step Up and Strike
Lunge
Stand Still
Cleaving Finish
Improved Cleaving Finish
Endurance (sleeping in armor)
Dodge
Exotic Weapon Proficiency
Greater Penetrating Strike
Improved Initiative
Master Craftsman
Penetrating Strike
Lighten Weapon

Now, I'm trying to figure out what to do to increase survivability. I'm not getting Armor Training, but I wasn't planning to have a huge Dex mod anyway. Mithral Full Plate will probably give me all my AC. I'm not sure if Toughness is considered a worthwhile feat or not, but I was considering it. And Diehard might be a good idea if I'm already interested in taking Endurance. Either way, I'd appreciate any other ideas anyone give on how to make sure the character stays alive long enough to swing that huge sword.


Guts is usually either much higher level than what he fights, or much smaller in size. If neither is the case, he falls back on his ungodly ability to take punishment.

If you're willing to be a Half-Orc, invest in the Deathless line. Rely on a big pool of HP and crazy damage to kill them before it matters that they can kill you. Like a Barbarian.


Invulnerable Rager, perhaps with a Fighter splash to get the Heavy Armor Proficiency (Mithril doesnt get you around that) and "moar feats!".


Barbarian pulls it off better, given the Rage, Rage Powers, Damage Reduction, etc.

Invulnerable Rager Barbarian archetype works perfectly. You get a better scaling DR, and you get rid of some pointless class features in the process. Mithril Breastplate, although not properly mimicking Guts' Armor, would serve you the best in the long run in association with the Barbarian class features.

You'll want the Beast Totem Rage Power chain; gaining Natural Armor, Natural Weapons, and the ability to Pounce synergizes a lot of Guts' ability to engage hard and fast in melee combat. Superstition and the Spell Sunder chain will be very useful for your character, and symbolizes how Guts' Sword is innately magical, and how he defies the laws of causality.

As far as weaponry is concerned, the best comparison to what Guts uses is a Full Blade in 3.X, which translates to a Large Bastard Sword in Pathfinder (as the Full Blade in 3.X has a 2D8 Damage Dice, was Two-Handed and required a specific amount of Strength). You could flavor a different weapon, such as a Large Falcata, to function as Guts' Sword, but it ultimately depends on what you expect your weapons to accomplish.

Since Guts is Human, he does get a Bonus Feat, a Skill Point, and a +2 Attribute Bonus (Strength obviously). You can substitute the Bonus Feat and Skill Point for an extra +2 elsewhere, but unless you're putting it into Constitution or Dexterity, it's not really worth it. You could get Racial Heritage (Orc) and take the Deathless feat chain for extra negative hit points, as well as take the Diehard feat. (It's practically a must.)

If you are truly dead-set on being a Fighter, I would consider the Variant Multiclass option from Pathfinder Unchained, which gives you certain Class Features from other classes in exchange for half of your standard feats, and choose the Barbarian. By 3rd level, you'll get Rage for a few rounds, which will save your bacon, and make you even more effective in melee.

Statistics should look something like this, assuming 20 point buy:

Strength - 18 + 2 = 20 (17)
Dexterity - 13 (3)
Constitution - 14 (5)
Intelligence - 13 (3)
Wisdom - 7 (+4)
Charisma - 7 (+4)

Normally I'd suggest dump Intelligence as well, and boost Wisdom, but Guts isn't a stupid fighter, he comes up with fairly ingenious strategies when fighting enemies. (And is also a risk taker, as seen in the fights against Bazuso and Zodd.) He's also easy to give into his personal temptations and desires, as shown in the books, so it makes sense for him to have a lower than normal Wisdom.

Unless you're planning to use an Exotic Weapon, you can easily take another weapon choice and reflavor it to fit what his weapon actually is, so no need to spend an Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat unless you really want an Exotic Weapon's statistics. The Nodachi and Falchion are plenty strong weapons. If you were going to be spending an Exotic Proficiency feat on anything, it'd be his Repeating Crossbow, or even worse yet; his Hand Cannon.

As for other items being carried, consider using Alchemist Fire's as his little Fire Bombs that he uses in battles.


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Well first I think that pure fighter is not the way to go.
Urban barbarian might be more like it.
Very often in the manga guts face many opponents and I think that thematically the crowd control ability would fit well.
But I would not just take urban barbarian levels, I would get at least one level of Titan Fighter too to get that large two handed weapon.

20 point buy:
STR: 20 (used the +2 from human here and +1 from level 4)
DEX: 14 (used the +1 from level 8)
CON: 14
INT: 13
WIS: 10
CHA: 7

level progression would look a bit like this until level 12:
Titan Fighter 1 - Combat Expertise + Dodge
Titan Fighter 2 - Mobility
Urban Barbarian 1 - Spring attack
Urban Barbarian 2 - Rage power beast totem lesser
Urban Barbarian 3 - Whirlwind attack
Urban Barbarian 4 - Rage power beast totem
Urban Barbarian 5 - Power attack
Urban Barbarian 6 - Rage power: Superstition (Ex)
Urban Barbarian 7 - Lunge
Urban Barbarian 8 - Rage power: Boasting Taunt (Ex)
Urban Barbarian 9 - furious focus
Urban Barbarian 10 - Rage power: greater beast totem pounce

Item buying strategy:
-Get a large 2 handed sword and enchant it the best you can (courageous would be nice)
-Get a nice armor like the agile breastplate and enchant it.
-Definitely need boots of haste or anything to increase movement speed to capitalize on spring attack.
-Definitely need items to boost STR and CON
-Cloak of resistance is a must
-Potions of lesser Restoration remove the fatigued condition
-Get an adaptive composite longbow +1

Overall strategy in combat:
Level 1 to 4 -> Charge in and tank while swinging a large great sword around.
Level 5 to 9 -> Charge in and try to get surrounded as much as possible, whirlwind attack.
level 10 to 11 -> Charge in lunge and whirlwind attack using lunge and power attack.
level 12 -> pounce in, whirlwind attack -> bathe in blood

By far this is not the best build but I think it fit with the theme of Guts, being surrounded by overwhelming odds and turning that 10 on one fight into a massacre, you get a lot of bonuses to intimidate and attack rolls from being surrounded. You have spring attack when facing a lone powerful adversary. The big problem is when fighting flying creatures but then again you should deal enough damage with your longbow to compensate for that.

Feel free to edit or contribute to that build, I love Guts he deserve an incredible build!


I was tempted to go the Barbarian route, but despite the show being called Berserk, Guts doesn't strike me as a Berserker. He can act like one sometimes, but he wins with a mix of great Strength and high skill. Barbarians basically just depend on Strength. Barbarians eventually get +4 att/dmg via +8 Str, but Fighters get the same thing essentially. They obviously don't get the other benefits of high Str, and won't have the HP of a Barbarian, thanks to their higher HD and Con bonus. But Fighters can do it all day. Barbarians could, theoretically (though not practically) run out of rounds of rage. Lastly, the two-handed fighter archetype gives some other nice benefits to damage dealing.


Your feats are mostly spoken for, but don't forget Improved Sunder, etc - Guts does love breaking someone's weapon, shield, armor and face, not necessarily in that order.


Again, I was tempted to include some love for Sunder, but it seems like a waste of feats when I can skip over the weapon/shield/armor and go straight to breaking face. Granted, it does always look like he is chopping directly through armor, and even in some cases he probably is, but I feel like that would be more of a flavor thing to support, and I'd rather use the slots for either more damage or more survivability. Sundering can be a waste of effort when I could just be killing the enemy and could destroy potential treasure as well.

Sovereign Court

While it might need a slight re-skin (depends upon your GM) you might consider going with a Samurai.

Samurai can use Resolve points to stay upright when dropped below 0hp, and I see Guts using Resolve points to boost his saves, negate crits etc. to be able to keep fighting through virtually anything. Plus the Challenge ability seems right - since he really comes into his own in 1v1 fights.

Samurai also allows you to take the Weapon Spec. feats in your primary weapon.

If your GM allows said re-skin, you might see if he lets you count having your massive sword on your shoulder as being in the scabbard - to allow you to pull in from there for Iajutsu. (I recall Guts swinging his blade off of his shoulder to great effect.)


@ Laiho Vanallo: Courageous no longer works the way you think it does. Relevant FAQ that shows errata.

Secondly, Whirlwind Attack requires 2 feats outside of what the character should otherwise go for. Combat Expertise can fit Guts, but Spring Attack? No way.

Lastly, Whirlwind Attack isn't particularly effective for this character, even with Lunge. Although I understand that Guts has incredible Reach with his weapon, that cannot be properly emulated with a Sword, because most all Reach weapons are Polearms.

Cleave also isn't particularly effective, primarily because you would need Dwarf-specific feats to be able to properly clear enemies all around you.

Sczarni

My friend wanted to make (and did make) Guts in the similar way you are doing it now, but he encountered problem which he couldn't exactly solve. Guts persona is ill will for a team of Pathfinder players. He regretted creating him in the end.

True story.

Adam

Sovereign Court

Malag wrote:

My friend wanted to make (and did make) Guts in the similar way you are doing it now, but he encountered problem which he couldn't exactly solve. Guts persona is ill will for a team of Pathfinder players. He regretted creating him in the end.

True story.

Adam

As long as you do late in the show Guts's personality rather than early show - he should do fine.


Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Malag wrote:

My friend wanted to make (and did make) Guts in the similar way you are doing it now, but he encountered problem which he couldn't exactly solve. Guts persona is ill will for a team of Pathfinder players. He regretted creating him in the end.

True story.

Adam

As long as you do late in the show Guts's personality rather than early show - he should do fine.

Ehhhh...I don't think so.

Although he was quite mistrusting starting off, after the Eclipse events, he didn't particularly get much better in the book. After all, he did tell a little girl to go kill herself just because things weren't going her way.

Of course, I know he said that only just to hide his own pain of the fact that he had to kill said girl's "best friend" because it was an Apostle. In a world of ambiguous morality and dark times, living on the precipice of both Life and Death, he didn't have much of a choice, especially since his strongest asset is his will to survive.

The key things to note is that Guts is a very Chaotic person, and is shown in the multiple events following the Eclipse, how he becomes a less stable character later in the series, and how he is commonly referred to as someone who defies causality. Granted, he has shown to use teamwork before, but there are still moments where he would rather fight by himself than to have friendly combatants, and that's where the whole "Doesn't fit the Pathfinder playstyle" argument comes from.

Sczarni

Charon's Little Helper wrote:


As long as you do late in the show Guts's personality rather than early show - he should do fine.

Maybe he will, but it's a thought to ponder on.


Dunno , from what i remember from the last chapters i read of berserker , guts was older and more reasonable actually , his party was quite large even and he treated them quite well. Ofc i agree he is CN , so sometimes there is conflict , but nothing major among the party by the end.

Ofc it helped they all had the same goal , which is very important.

PS: I didnt watch the anime only read the manga btw. From what i have read the anime ends by the time griffin becomes a demon , in which case i agree that guts wouldnt work well in a party.

But the manga goes much , much further than that in the story , to point where he actually has an entire party , full with even a young wizard and all.


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Nox Aeterna wrote:

Dunno , from what i remember from the last chapters i read of berserker , guts was older and more reasonable actually , his party was quite large even and he treated them quite well. Ofc i agree he is CN , so sometimes there is conflict , but nothing major among the party by the end.

Ofc it helped they all had the same goal , which is very important.

PS: I didnt watch the anime only read the manga btw. From what i have read the anime ends by the time griffin becomes a demon , in which case i agree that guts wouldnt work well in a party.

But the manga goes much , much further than that in the story , to point where he actually has an entire party , full with even a young wizard and all.

Indeed, they form a fine party.

-Cripplingly underpowered Aristocrat/Cavalier/Witch: Farnese de Vandimion

-Slayer with godlike system mastery: Serpico

-Two-handed power attacking BSF with plot powers: Guts

-Comic relief who didn't get the campaign theme: Isidro

-OP full-caster carrying the team: Schierke


RaizielDragon wrote:
I was tempted to go the Barbarian route, but despite the show being called Berserk, Guts doesn't strike me as a Berserker. He can act like one sometimes, but he wins with a mix of great Strength and high skill. Barbarians basically just depend on Strength.Lastly, the two-handed fighter archetype gives some other nice benefits to damage dealing.

Base attack bonus is supposed to represent skill at arms as well. Fighters may know more tricks of the trade (feats, weapon training, etc), but all full attack classes can become masterful warriors.

You can do it with a Fighter, definitely, and using the variant multiclass rules for some barbarian goodies, but I think the invulnerable rager works best for Guts. As far as I can tell, he was never the greatest swordmaster in the land - he excelled at strength, stamina, and willpower.


I think he was considered an excellent swordsman. He was shown on multiple occasions to be analytical of his opponents techniques and strategies. Just because the show didn't do this inner-monologue for every opponent doesn't mean he wasn't doing it.

I think that some swordsmen, like Griffin when they first met, were just DIFFERENT swordsmen. Guts is just a straight up Str-based warrior. He swings hard and fast, using muscle, and tries to use his overwhelming strength to beat his enemy. Griffin was more of a finesse, Dex-based warrior. He would parry Guts' attacks and often defeated opponents with quick decisive slashes. Both are excellent swordsmen; they just have different styles.

That being said, y'all are wearing me down. I think the main thing I don't like is that Guts never seems to have an "on" state (Raged) and an "off" state (not-Raged). He's ALWAYS on. He's always ready for a fight, and never really has to enter any kind of mode or state of mind. That made me prefer the idea of Weapon Training over Rage. There are a lot of goodies in Barbarian that would help with how tough he was though.


The exotic weapon proficiency was going to be for a "Mighty Sword"; a 3rd party exotic weapon with 2d8 damage. Essentially, I'd be spending a feat to upgrade from 2d6->2d8, which is an average of +1 damage. It's probably a sub-par choice for a feat, but it's extra damage and it seems fitting for the character. Lighten Weapon will let me use a Large version of it, upgrading it to 3d8 but with a -2 to attack. That's another +4.5 damage on average, but the -2 attack will also negatively affect my damage potential over time. There's an Improved Lighten Weapon that gets rid of the -2 as well, so that's an option.

Pounce is tempting, but as a two-handed fighter, I'm not quite as dependent on full-attacking as, say a two-weapon fighter would be (still want those full attacks though, obviously). That's a nice draw for the Barbarian though.

Diehard and the Deathless Chain allow me to keep fighting until I get down to my negative Con score; effectively giving me extra HP = my Con score. So they are essentially jumping through a bunch of hoops for a glorified Toughness effect; meaning I should take Toughness before I consider investing in multiple feats that do the same thing.


Well, to be honest Pathfinder has enough overlap in archetypes and classes that there is no one TRUE WAY it a character like that has to be done. I am a fan of the invulnerable rager (imo while Guts does not have an "on state", he has moments of superhuman power), but a two-handed fighter, reflavored samurai or a two-handed style slayer are all options one can go for.

If you go fighter, combat stamina can be quite good in replicating moments of supreme excellence, killing blows and the like.


Guts was definitely a tactics-savvy warrior. He knew to sunder Zodd's blade and then stab him in the chest to attempt to kill him was really his only option, he knew to use his cloak as a decoy to draw an enemy out in order to create an opening, he knows these are good tactics, but they are also very risky. He could've ended up breaking his own sword, and being weaponless against an opponent as strong as Zodd. Half the time, when he uses his cloak as a decoy, the enemies see right through the ruse, or Guts reacts too late, and therefore doesn't really do much damage. Let's not forget the factor that he occassionally does feign(ish) weakness and pain, if only just to let the guard down of an enemy for his Hand Cannon.

Quite frankly, these tactics are Do or Die, and is probably the reason why the Skull Knight says that Guts is one that is against the Laws of Causality, and is something that Griffith touched on during the entire War arc, that Guts was an extreme risk taker, and the factor that he would be putting himself in these situations just to feel and come out alive was something that Griffith would call very lucky, or miraculous.

Trust me, Guts definitely has his On and Off states. He still has his base fighting ability, but if you've read the books, his states between being a Raging Whirlwind of Death, and simply swinging his sword, are very noticeable, and can easily be mechanically demonstrated with the Rage class feature.

At any rate, boiling down to mechanics, here...

2D8 would actually convert to 3D6, if you're going to use the table. Relevant FAQ. So you're looking at only another +1 increase. I wouldn't get hung up on Damage Dice unless you're planning to get to using Vital Strike, which is very feat intensive.

Iteratives are still very important for any Martial. 4-5 attacks, which, if you have high enough +'s to hit, will make every Full Attack more worthwhile to have, and your lower iteratives will have better value. You also hit harder with each attack than a given TWF build.

Toughness can be taken, but I wouldn't be too particularly worried about HP as a Barbarian early in the levels. If you have the Con for it, I'd actually recommend Raging Vitality instead, giving you an extra +2 Constitution for your Raging.


Actually, it says that if the size increases, to go up two steps on the chart.

So, if starting at 2d8 at Medium, and going up to large, it would go past 3d6 to 3d8.


Actually, thinking about it, the Vital Strike chain would be fairly fitting to Guts. He doesn't tend to slice an opponent up with multiple weaker attacks. He tends to destroy them in one devastating attack, assuming it hits. The Death or Glory feat would be very fitting for him as well.


Here is a thread that I sometimes reference when evaluating "how much guts" (which to be honest, is almost always a factor) I want when building a character. Note that it's 3.5, not PF.


How would anyone argue Guts is not a barbarian with the Superstitious chain? If anything he is the prototypical Wild Rager with his will saves and extra attacks, along with being a danger to the party.

I also don't understand how people are saying a barbarian is incapable of thought. BAB is the abstraction of tactical ability in combat, and fighter and barbarian have the same BAB progression. Just because he saves his rounds of raging for the giant demons walking the land doesn't make him a fighter.

Even beast totem fits because of the "RIP AND TEAR" of Guts' fighting style and animal totem, so he's pretty much an optimized barbarian of whatever archetype in Pathfinder.


Ok. I think I've given in and accept Barbarian as the best way to build Guts.

The feats that I'm still counting on fitting into the build are:

Power Attack
Weapon Focus
Improved Critical
Exotic Weapon Proficiency
Lighten Weapon
Toughness

Maybe Endurance (sleeping in armor)

So I still have some feat slots open for suggestions.

On Race, normally I would say Human for this, but a re-skinned Half-Orc is tempting; they have an alternate racial trait that gives Endurance, so that makes up for the extra feat humans normally get, IF I planned on taking Endurance anyway. And it only replaces the +2 to Intimidate, which isn't that attractive. They can also give up their Darkvision for 1 extra skill point per level. These two together essentially put them on par with a Human, however I would still have Orc Ferocity, Weapon Familiarity, and Orc Blood.

For Rage Powers, I would obviously want the 3 Beast Totem ones. Probably Superstition as well. I was going to try and fit in some of the Improved Damage Reduction as well.

Also, I read that there are two traits that each reduce ACP by 1, which, combined with Mithral, means I can wear Hellknight Plate without penalty. Mithral also makes it count as medium armor, which means I still get Fast Movement, which will help up for the reduced speed of wearing medium armor.


As far as I remember you need heavy armor training to wear mithral plate, even though it counts as medium for most effects. I am away from my books at the moment, though.


You do need it to not take non-proficiency penalties, but with the 2 traits combined with Mithral, the ACP of Hellknight Plate is reduced from -5 to 0, meaning there are no penalties.


You can go armored hulk, but he didn't get full armor until pretty far into the manga meaning he was in light armor for just about everything.

My recommendation for armor is Elven Chain + Armor kilt for +7AC and a +3 Max DEX on medium armor. Chainmail would a full set of armor that can be fluffed to be the intricate plates of his berserker armor. If you want to go deep into the fluff it can be enchanted like folding plate to go from a chain shirt type armor to the improved chainmail stats.

Another option is to make it celestial plate armor, but instead of beign truly celestial it would be blessed by Gorum for barbarians to wear full plate.


Guts is definitely at least partially an Invulnerable Rager. He also definitely rages.

I also would strongly recommend taking Stalwart and Improved Stalwart along with Crane Style. Check out the Tankster builds here. I would build similar to that.


Right, I had missed the part where the penalties became 0 :) .


It does seem like the downsides of his rage mostly come from an artifact. That armour really does want to kill everything around him, and he has to fight against it to keep in control.

CE intelligent full plate with boosts to rage and 'kill everything' as its purpose?


So I would take: Dodge, Improved Unarmed Strike, Endurance, Diehard, Crane Style, Stalwart, and Improved Stalwart; for a total of 7 feats, just to get the "privilege" of having the option of taking -2 to all my attacks and getting an extra 6 DR, or just forgo attacking at all to get an extra 10 DR. Seems like a lot of investment for a somewhat lackluster effect. IUS is a complete waste except for in the rare event I'm caught without a weapon; but Beast Totem is going to fix that anyway. Dodge would be an extra point of AC. Endurance was already a maybe. Diehard an even less maybe. So really, it would be 4 "wasted" slots to gain those options. I want him to be tough, but I don't want to neuter his damage potential to do so. He's still a very offensive-based warrior.


I don't know much about later stuff. I've only watched the anime, and even then, I'm not completely done with it. Just got to the part where Griffin gives in to the demons and accepts their offer.


What about a simple Fighter using the Two-Handed Weapon Variant. The Devastating Blow he gains at level 19 for the Auto Critical seems as though it would work with a Guts build. He generally only attacks once anyway. Also, the damage would increase because of that variants level 3 ability Overhand Chop. Just focus on to hit feats, then damage feats, and lastly, defensive feats like Iron Will and Great Fortitude.


Did you look at the builds? It seems like you didn't. You would have over DR20/-. You may also want to take a look at how Guarded Life interacts with the archetype granted DR and Diehard.


Also, 2 levels of Unbreakable Fighter will get you Endurance, Diehard, IUS and Heavy Armor Proficiency. This is all in the build too...

You want me to just post a build later?...

As far as offense goes you need a grand total of one feat for that in this kind of build: Power Attack.

...maybe Vital Strike.


That's what I was initially looking at doing, Beetyasol. There seemed to be overwhelming support for making it a Barbarian instead.

As for the Tankster builds, yes, I've had a chance to look them over now. My initial comment was just based off the feats you initially mentioned.

So, 9-12 DR from Barbarian (depending on how many Improved DR rage powers you take) + 10 DR from Improved Stalwart and it's friends = 19-22 DR. The DR from Barbarian is double if you are taking nonlethal damage, so that's 28-34 DR vs nonlethal.

Guarded Life + Greater Guarded Life mean that up to 38 points of lethal damage can be converted to nonlethal damage (2 per Barb level) if the damage would reduce me to below 0HP. Is the damage converted before or after damage reduction is calculated?

For example. Let's say I'm at 1HP. I get hit for 30 damage. Normally, I would reduce that by 22, and still take 8, which would put me at -7HP. Since that damage would reduce my HP to less than 0, do I convert all 30 damage to nonlethal, or just the last 7? If it's all 30, then I would take no damage from the attack, since my nonlethal DR is 38, correct?

Also, there is some danger to operating at/near the 0 or negative HP values. All it takes is one point of nonlethal damage, and I'm unconcscious because my nonlethal damage exceeds my current HP. The Flagellant feat would fix this and I would probably recommend that feat for any build considering playing at this low of HP values. Another issue, though, is that spells/energy ignore the massive DR this build focuses on getting.

I'd also be tempted to make it a 3-level Fighter dip. I'd be giving up 2 HP, 1 DR, and 1 rage power in exchange for 1 bonus feat, +1 Will vs mind-affecting effects, and Armor Training (which nets me 1 less ACP, 1 more max dex, and no speed penalty in medium armor, such as mithral full plate or it's variants).

All-in-all, I am interested in incorporating some of this into the build, but every step I take toward making it a Barbarian and harder to kill is a step away from the original pure Fighter build, that was much better at dealing damage.


It is applied after DR. :) I think you have a firm understanding of how it works now. Take a look into potions of Ablative Barrier and what they can add too.

For saves take the Superstitious Rage Power.

I can easily make a Barbarian that out damages your Fighter. Mixing the two seems the best option. I'd go Fighter 2/Barbarian X.


I don't see how the Barbarian can out damage the Fighter. Fighter can get Weapon Specialization + Greater for an extra 4 damage per hit. Two-Handed Fighter gets a bunch of stuff for increasing damage, including double Str mod on single attacks, weapon training (+4 att/dmg), double damage on all put first attack for full attacks, and double Power Attack damage instead of 1.5 with two-handed weapons.

The Barbarian can get +8 Str if he doesn't dip Fighter at all, which equates to +4 att/dmg, which is the same as the Fighters weapon training. But the Fighter still has all the other damage boosting feats/features that the Barbarian doesn't have access to.

The only thing the Barbarian gets that gives them an edge over Fighters in the damage department is Pounce.

The Fighter also gets Heavy Armor without jumping through hoops like a Barbarian, so they will have a better AC pretty much all the time. Anything else the Barbarian does for extra AC is normally negated by some penalty they are getting for something.

Barbarian adds in some nice survivability tricks, like extra HP (somewhat random, due to based on dice rolls, but overall should do better), Superstition for saves, etc.

And to top it all off, the Fighter can do his thing all day, every day. Barbarians could run out of rounds of rage, potentially. I realize this isn't a very strong point since at higher levels they have plenty of rounds to go around, but it's still a factor to consider. I bet Guts would have run out after working his way through 100 mooks. Then you've got no rage left for the BBEG at the end.


So, if Guarded Life is applied after DR:

I have DR 22 (38 vs nonlethal). I'm at 1 HP. I take 30 damage. My DR reduces it to 8 damage. That damage would reduce my HP to -7, so Guarded Life kicks in and converts all 7 to nonlethal. So now, I'm at 1 HP with 7 nonlethal and I'm unconscious despite all my Diehard shenanigans. Correct?


Barbarians get more attacks, better magic defense, and deal about the same damage (+4 is really +6 atk/dmg). You probably could build a fighter with better +X to their weapon damage, but it's not by very much and you are missing all the pounce, AoOs, and saves the barbarian has. Before the courageous nerf the Furious/Courageous weapon was a clear mechanical advantage over Gloves of Dueling or Weapon Specialization.


Guru-Meditation wrote:
RaizielDragon wrote:
The exotic weapon proficiency was going to be for a "Mighty Sword"; a 3rd party exotic weapon with 2d8 damage. Essentially, I'd be spending a feat to upgrade from 2d6->2d8, which is an average of +1 damage.

No. It is one feat for +2 damage non-crit, and +4 damage on a crit, essentially like Weapon Specialisation, which is Fighter Only. (Assuming Greatsword-like crit of 19-20/x2 pre Improved Crit)

It is a good feat, as it is raising the base damage, which stacks with everything. But not what i would call overpowered.


hiiamtom wrote:
Barbarians get more attacks, better magic defense, and deal about the same damage (+4 is really +6 atk/dmg). You probably could build a fighter with better +X to their weapon damage, but it's not by very much and you are missing all the pounce, AoOs, and saves the barbarian has. Before the courageous nerf the Furious/Courageous weapon was a clear mechanical advantage over Gloves of Dueling or Weapon Specialization.

Can you explain how +4 Str is "really" +6 att/dam?

Barbarians might occasionally get an AoO or 2 more than a Fighter thanks to Come and Get Me, but at the potential forfeiture of their own HP to do so. And Fighters have plenty of feats to build around AoO tricks as well.

Agreed that Pounce and saves (thanks to Superstition) are something a Barbarian has over the Fighter. But I already mentioned that Barbarians have Pounce over a Fighter, and saves aren't part of the offense discussion. It's part of the discussion that Barbarians give up some offense for additional defense as compared to a Fighter. And that probably makes for a better rounded character in the long run.


Guru-Meditation wrote:
Guru-Meditation wrote:
RaizielDragon wrote:
The exotic weapon proficiency was going to be for a "Mighty Sword"; a 3rd party exotic weapon with 2d8 damage. Essentially, I'd be spending a feat to upgrade from 2d6->2d8, which is an average of +1 damage.

No. It is one feat for +2 damage non-crit, and +4 damage on a crit, essentially like Weapon Specialisation, which is Fighter Only. (Assuming Greatsword-like crit of 19-20/x2 pre Improved Crit)

It is a good feat, as it is raising the base damage, which stacks with everything. But not what i would call overpowered.

You're right. My math was off. I get in a hurry to get my responses out, and that makes mistakes like this happen :D


Fact: Barbarians top DPR calculations. Fighters do not.

I find DPR calculations are not entirely accurate in real play. However my anecdotal evidence matches. Barbarians are the power houses of melee DPR. Fighters bring combat versatility.

I will let others weigh in with their own personal experiences but I imagine it will match my own and what the calculations show fairly closely.


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I've always assumed Barbarians were the kings of DPR, but I've never stopped to look at the numbers before. Weapon Training means a Fighter is keeping up with a Barbarian with regards to bonuses to att/dmg, and access to Specialization combined with bonus feats means a Fighter seems to pull ahead.

I agree that actual play experience may not always match DPR calculations, and as you stated, Barbarians have some tricks for getting in extra attacks, which can help them at least catch back up, if not pull ahead. This is almost always at the expense of something to the Barbarian though. This is also difficult to factor in when considering DPR calculations, which is why they aren't always reliable.


I think Barbarians add a level of survivability that is difficult for a Fighter to replicate. Fighters might get a little more AC, thanks to Heavy Armor and Armor Training (assuming they kept that feature), but it won't likely be by much.

As you said, Fighters bring more flexibility by being able to dedicate more feats to things like Combat Maneuvers or other kinds of combat tricks.

However, those maneuvers and tricks can also help the Fighter catch up to the various ways a Barbarian can get extra attacks in terms of offense, making the gap tight again, in my opinion. Those tricks may be as circumstantial as the Barbarians, though, meaning that it is again difficult to factor into calculations.


RaizielDragon wrote:

Can you explain how +4 Str is "really" +6 att/dam?

Barbarians might occasionally get an AoO or 2 more than a Fighter thanks to Come and Get Me, but at the potential forfeiture of their own HP to do so. And Fighters have plenty of feats to build around AoO tricks as well.

Agreed that Pounce and saves (thanks to Superstition) are something a Barbarian has over the Fighter. But I already mentioned that Barbarians have Pounce over a Fighter, and saves aren't part of the offense discussion. It's part of the discussion that Barbarians give up some offense for additional defense as compared to a Fighter. And that probably makes for a better rounded character in the long run.

You said +8 STR for +4 atk/dmg when it is +6 atk/dmg.

OK? Two extra attacks a round is significant, especially at that level. So a hasted Barbarian is making more attacks which is far more effective than a few +X abilities you sink feats into.

Barbarians also have better attack bonuses, and attacks that can take down spells over the fighter (the similar feat are not as good).

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