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So I was looking through my copy of Distant Shores, and I saw this lovely trait on pg. 23:
finding the good in unusual places and appreciating the
nuances of virtue in the world. You may treat Asmodeus
as if he were a lawful neutral deity for the purposes of
determining your own alignment as a cleric, inquisitor, or
other divine spellcaster. You may not select the evil domain
unless your own alignment also contains an evil aspect.
Paladins are divine spellcasters, so this seems legit.
What can we do to make use of this?
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Asmodean Paladin confirmed for Brawl.
Paladins aren't lawful neutral, they're lawful good. I doubt many GMs would allow an Asmodean Paladin, regardless of what that trait says.
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Paladins aren't lawful neutral, they're lawful good. I doubt many GMs would allow an Asmodean Paladin, regardless of what that trait says.
Yes, but the trait allows them to treat Asmodeus as LN. Irori and Abadar have paladins after all, and they are not Lawful Good either.
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Even if possible, you will still have all of the other restrictions of being a Paladin. If Asmodeus personally commands you to do something evil, you still can't do it without falling. Paladins don't even draw their powers from a deity. You could even be a paladin of a dead god like Aroden.
Not technically valid.
Beginning at 4th level, a paladin gains the ability to cast a small number of divine spells which are drawn from the paladin spell list presented in Spell Lists. A paladin must choose and prepare her spells in advance.
To prepare or cast a spell, a paladin must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a paladin's spell is 10 + the spell level + the paladin's Charisma modifier.
Like other spellcasters, a paladin can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Her base daily spell allotment is given on Table: Paladin. In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Charisma score (see Table: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells). When Table: Paladin indicates that the paladin gets 0 spells per day of a given spell level, she gains only the bonus spells she would be entitled to based on her Charisma score for that spell level.
A paladin must spend 1 hour each day in quiet prayer and meditation to regain her daily allotment of spells. A paladin may prepare and cast any spell on the paladin spell list, provided that she can cast spells of that level, but she must choose which spells to prepare during her daily meditation.
Through 3rd level, a paladin has no caster level. At 4th level and higher, her caster level is equal to her paladin level – 3.
A Paladin who is 3rd level and lower has no caster level (and therefore is not a divine caster at that point, meaning they aren't eligible for this trait).
Although you could potentially make a case for a Paladin who converted to Asmodeus at 4th level (or higher) by taking the Additional Traits feat, and later down the road, convert to a Hell Knight (which would be pretty cool flavor-wise). I can see Asmodeus making use of Paladins to further his goals, but simultaneously, any real Paladin would know that Asmodeus would just be using them for his own twisted purposes (and is therefore why he is Lawful Evil).
But by RAW, a Paladin of 4th level and Higher would be plausible for this trait.
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Wes's claims would have more weight, if he didn't seem to be under the impression that only lawful good deities have paladins.
...vast majority of the time we cleave to the Paizo house-rule that paladins have to worship lawful good deities
We have multiple sources of paladins of neutral-good and lawful-neutral deities.
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Wes's claims would have more weight, if he didn't seem to be under the impression that only lawful good deities have paladins.
...vast majority of the time we cleave to the Paizo house-rule that paladins have to worship lawful good deitiesWe have multiple sources of paladins of neutral-good and lawful-neutral deities.
And in fact have Paladin codes for those very gods.
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And in fact have Paladin codes for those very gods.Wes's claims would have more weight, if he didn't seem to be under the impression that only lawful good deities have paladins.
...vast majority of the time we cleave to the Paizo house-rule that paladins have to worship lawful good deitiesWe have multiple sources of paladins of neutral-good and lawful-neutral deities.
And in one case a specific archetype and prestige class for them.
Contributor
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Wes's claims would have more weight, if he didn't seem to be under the impression that only lawful good deities have paladins.
...vast majority of the time we cleave to the Paizo house-rule that paladins have to worship lawful good deitiesWe have multiple sources of paladins of neutral-good and lawful-neutral deities.
For those above me, please consult the bolded text.
I believe he's saying that they're deviating from the Official Rules of paladins and deities as well; hence "house-rule". He's not saying that paladins can officially only worship lawful good deities.
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By that logic then, Paladins "can" worship Asmodeus, as much as say Abadar, using this trait. I still think it's a terrible idea, because you will face horrible conflicts of interest, but it seems to be "legal".
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By that logic then, Paladins "can" worship Asmodeus, as much as say Abadar, using this trait. I still think it's a terrible idea, because you will face horrible conflicts of interest, but it seems to be "legal".
The other problem is that most people seem to want to use this trait completely divorced of context. It's not for Chelaxians, or for Hellknights, or for those who've even heard of The Thrice-Damned House of Thrune.
It's for the people of Anuli, and the tiny sect of worshipers of the "Wily Linguist". Any Avistani worshiper of Asmodeus should oppose them simply for the heresy of depicting Asmodeus as a woman, let alone welcoming them as trusted allies.
While we're on this topic, is there an official list of which PF deities have paladins? While we're at it, I'd love to know which deities have inquisitors as well.
Paladins aren't lawful neutral, they're lawful good. I doubt many GMs would allow an Asmodean Paladin, regardless of what that trait says.Yes, but the trait allows them to treat Asmodeus as LN. Irori and Abadar have paladins after all, and they are not Lawful Good either.
That's a good point, but someone brought up the alignment restriction, which would still be in effect. Irori and Abadar work because their philosophies aren't harmful, while Asmodeus' philosophy is harmful to many people.
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While we're on this topic, is there an official list of which PF deities have paladins? While we're at it, I'd love to know which deities have inquisitors as well.
That's pretty simple -
Any Lawful Neutral, Lawful Good, or Neutral Good deity can have paladins.
Any deity can have inquisitors, clerics, or warpriests. And so you can assume that they have at least one of each somewhere in the world =P
There isn't an "official" list because the rule are sufficient to determine what that list is.
Heh. Darksol made a nice catch with the trait excluding paladins under 4th level.
Kalindlara brought up another important point - the trait is intended for followers for a specific heretical sect of Asmodeus, and to separate the trait it from that is to do the trait a significant injustice.
(Though any paladin that managed to follow Asmodeus without losing her powers would practically have to be a heretic.)
I'd never allow this at my table no matter how people try to twist RAW. RAI its pretty clear this isn't intend.
I wish this could allow Asmodean Clerics to Channel Positive Energy; it could would give a support function which can not be provided by Clerics of other evil deities, and would be of great asset for Hells Vengence
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Mainly because they realised that they were smoking good ganga when they wrote it.Code of conduct kills it.
They were allowed at the time they released Council of Thieves, but Paizo retconned it afterwards
LOL - no comments... this is the West Coast after all! ;)
But seriously, I think it has more to do with the fact the campaign setting was getting bigger at the time of that AP, with a lot of moving parts, thus harder to have a "central canon" be all, end all reference/body of knowledge.
Part of it was to reconcile the fact that there are good people living in Cheliax, and thus a subset of that population could be paladins, and since the only religion allowed by Law is Asmotron Prime, paladins of other deities born there would be rebels/outlaw right? so a delicate and hard situation to deal with in terms of canon.
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I think the Asmodeus paladinhood question could ultimately be resolved by the creation of a new monster: invent a Lawful Good equivalent of the new "Devil, Mnemor (Memory Devil)"
I would recommend this new monster to be an archon, based on bestiary:
Archons are a race of outsiders from Heaven, creatures of fundamental law and good tasked with the protection of that plane as well as all who are innocent or free of evil. They are the natural enemies of devils, daemons, and demons, and most are veterans of many attacks against their home by fiends of the Lower Planes. [...]
Although archons are champions of good, they have little patience for those who do not follow strict traditions and patterns of goodness. While a cruel dictatorship might be a legitimate enemy of the archon, rebellion and riot is not the proper way to address such an inequality. Justice and law must not be abandoned in the constant struggle for peace and good, for in such anarchic actions one often promotes further harm and mayhem, even if unintentionally.
Therefore, I suggest this new "Memory Archon" have skills/powers towards the following purposes:
- infiltration to other planes (prime material plane, lower planes, etc.)
- blending in other planes (masking good aura, alter self to look like outsiders of other subtypes, and great disguise mod or automatic success to pass like natives of the plane their in)
- pain absorption for those persecuted or tortured on those planes
- absorption of pain memory for those who have been tortured, cancelling the long lasting effect of torture (target will never be convinced to yield info via torture as he starts fresh each day with no memory of previous torture)
- in lands/planes where paladins cannot by LAW worship LN, LG or NG gods:
a) absorption of devotion memory so they can deep down worship those gods and pass any truth test or detection magic in regards to "not worshiping those gods"
b) 'devotion mnemonic implant' which aligns the target's beliefs (paladin code) with the plane or land's main religion
c) in no way does these abilities change the target's alignment or expand the scope of what his morally acceptable for that target's alignment: this is just to allow paladins to serve other deities if those deities have utter dominion over a particular area.
- Memory archons in effect absorb pain and any stain of a target's morality to allow them to live and coexist within a certain corrupted region or plane. The ability takes its toll: the target must pass an annual Will save against the Memory archon's DC, with a cumulative -1 penalty for each year serving the corrupted lands he's in. Failing this Will save means the paladin can no longer hold on to the strain of the memory implant and wakes up with the sudden realization that something is very wrong and he must immediately leave the land he's in or stay but declare his true god. The paladin cannot use 'devotion mnemonic implants' for subterfuge or spying: this is to enable a paladin to genuinely live and be an active LG member of that corrupted land's society. The paladin truly believes he's there to help the population, and that the land he's in truly accepts their presence and welcomes it.
(NOTE: evil gods might knowingly allow paladins to operate as some sort of 'society release valve' or to keep good citizen's hope alive on some twisted level, the same way Lawful Neutral societies don't completely annihilate crime as they recognize bribery/corruption is always, on some level, inevitable).
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Actually, I could see Asmodeus allowing empowering folks with the ability to smite evil, and encourage them to use that on Demons, Daemons, Divs, Hags, and every other NE and CE faction he doesn't control. Smite Chaos does nothing against a Daemon, and he would want to do something to stop those bastards from eating souls that are HIS to torment.
Yes he would eventually betray the Paladins he empowers, but allowing them to spend most of their lives fighting (appropriate) evil would fit just fine into his plans.
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Mainly because they realised that they were smoking good ganga when they wrote it.Code of conduct kills it.
They were allowed at the time they released Council of Thieves, but Paizo retconned it afterwards
LOL - no comments... this is the West Coast after all! ;)
But seriously, I think it has more to do with the fact the campaign setting was getting bigger at the time of that AP, with a lot of moving parts, thus harder to have a "central canon" be all, end all reference/body of knowledge.
Part of it was to reconcile the fact that there are good people living in Cheliax, and thus a subset of that population could be paladins, and since the only religion allowed by Law is Asmotron Prime, paladins of other deities born there would be rebels/outlaw right? so a delicate and hard situation to deal with in terms of canon.
As I recall it's a point of pride in Cheliax that other religions are allowed. (But suppressed.)
While we're on this topic, is there an official list of which PF deities have paladins? While we're at it, I'd love to know which deities have inquisitors as well.That's pretty simple -
Any Lawful Neutral, Lawful Good, or Neutral Good deity can have paladins.
Any deity can have inquisitors, clerics, or warpriests. And so you can assume that they have at least one of each somewhere in the world =P
There isn't an "official" list because the rule are sufficient to determine what that list is.
Heh. Darksol made a nice catch with the trait excluding paladins under 4th level.
Kalindlara brought up another important point - the trait is intended for followers for a specific heretical sect of Asmodeus, and to separate the trait it from that is to do the trait a significant injustice.
(Though any paladin that managed to follow Asmodeus without losing her powers would practically have to be a heretic.)
That's quite interesting, so Chaotic Good deities like Desna and Cayden Caillean don't have paladins. Good to know.
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I wish this could allow Asmodean Clerics to Channel Positive Energy; it could would give a support function which can not be provided by Clerics of other evil deities, and would be of great asset for Hells Vengence
Why wouldn't it allow that? Unless I'm missing or misreading something, it should be possible.
Clerics are within one alignment step of deity
Trait treats Asmodeus as LN
Cleric of Asmodeus can be LG
Good Clerics channel positive energy
I mean, you'd be a Lawful Good Cleric of Asmodeus which is just batty to me, but you could do it.
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Remember: Heretic sect that worships a female Asmodeus as the Wily Linguist. (added bonus: Think of synonyms for wily.)
It IS batty, but that's perhaps the point.
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To summarize Wes:
*The trait was not intended to allow paladins of Asmodeus.
*We have no plans to publish actual paladins of Asmodeus (though it might be fun to have some Asmodean scammers calling themselves paladins, just to mess with people...).
*PFS will not be allowing paladins of Asmodeus.
*You can do whatever you want in your home game. This was true before we published the feat, and remains true today. :)
That's not just Wes talking—last I checked in with all the various stakeholders, that was Paizo's official stance. So if you're a person who cares about official stances, that's ours. :D
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*The trait was not intended to allow paladins of Asmodeus.
So, should we expect a FAQ or Errata for this, as the currently written RAW suggests otherwise?
*PFS will not be allowing paladins of Asmodeus.
Is the trait not being allowed for PFS then, or are you referring to the above expected FAQ or errata?
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To summarize Wes:
*The trait was not intended to allow paladins of Asmodeus.
*We have no plans to publish actual paladins of Asmodeus (though it might be fun to have some Asmodean scammers calling themselves paladins, just to mess with people...).
*PFS will not be allowing paladins of Asmodeus.
*You can do whatever you want in your home game. This was true before we published the feat, and remains true today. :)
That's not just Wes talking—last I checked in with all the various stakeholders, that was Paizo's official stance. So if you're a person who cares about official stances, that's ours. :D
So, um how exactly did it make it into a book, just asking:-)
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I wish this could allow Asmodean Clerics to Channel Positive Energy; it could would give a support function which can not be provided by Clerics of other evil deities, and would be of great asset for Hells Vengence
To further elaborate on Rynjin's post.
Asmodeus is treated as LN
[cleric] is one step away, TN
Versatile Channeling is now an option for Asmodeuns
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I wish this could allow Asmodean Clerics to Channel Positive Energy; it could would give a support function which can not be provided by Clerics of other evil deities, and would be of great asset for Hells VengenceTo further elaborate on Rynjin's post.
Asmodeus is treated as LN
[cleric] is one step away, TN
Versatile Channeling is now an option for Asmodeuns
Not quite.
The trait lets you treat Asmodeus as if he were a lawful neutral deity only for the purposes of determining your own alignment. Any feats or class features that hinge on deity alignment still treat him as LE.
This does mean you would channel negative energy as a good cleric of Asmodeus.
This thread and those like it are why I have always house ruled paladins can be of any alignment. 5th edition has finally caught on to what I knew for years regarding paladins and alignments.
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I wish this could allow Asmodean Clerics to Channel Positive Energy; it could would give a support function which can not be provided by Clerics of other evil deities, and would be of great asset for Hells VengenceTo further elaborate on Rynjin's post.
Asmodeus is treated as LN
[cleric] is one step away, TN
Versatile Channeling is now an option for AsmodeunsNot quite.
The trait lets you treat Asmodeus as if he were a lawful neutral deity only for the purposes of determining your own alignment. Any feats or class features that hinge on deity alignment still treat him as LE.
This does mean you would channel negative energy as a good cleric of Asmodeus.
I believe the deity determining channeling type only applies if the Cleric in question is neutral.
A good cleric channels positive energy.
A good cleric (or a neutral cleric who worships a good deity) channels positive energy
I'll note that if you want to be an evil priest that channels positive energy, a life oracle fits the bill just fine.
Of course, your god's optional or even involuntary if you're an oracle. You can bitterly hate your god and still keep getting your spells =P
Oracles are great.
@ Captain Yesterday - I suspect the trait in question is in the book as an experiment (it's from Crystal Frazier's section IIRC). If the experiment pans out, we might see more traits like it - allowing for two-steps removed heretic sects of various gods.
(Huh. A neutral evil or lawful neutral Sarenrae sect in a Qadira AP would be neat.)
And if it doesn't work out, we'll simply never see its like again.
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Huh. So if you have that trait and you're playing a LG cleric, do you wind up with a LG cleric who channels positive energy but can't cast [good] descriptor spells?
Chaotic, Evil, Good, and Lawful Spells: A cleric can't cast spells of an alignment opposed to her own or her deity's (if she has one). Spells associated with particular alignments are indicated by the chaotic, evil, good, and lawful descriptors in their spell descriptions.
Emphasis added. Because the trait causes Asmodeus to count as LN only for the purpose of the worshiper's available alignments.
So make that an LG cleric who channels positive energy and spontaneously casts cure spells, but pings as Lawful Evil on detect spells and can't cast good descriptor spells.
Heh.
I think I would have liked this trait better if we had an NPC from Anuli who actually made use of it. As things stand, the main NPC cleric of Asmodeus in Anuli is of lawful neutral alignment, which is already allowed for a cleric of the lawful evil Asmodeus. Only a lawful good or true neutral character would have any need for this trait -- and the lawful good cleric of Asmodeus would create some really weird effects, as described above.
As things stand, I think we should nip this one in the bud before the Chelaxians come up with their own version of it.
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Does anyone even want to play a paladin of Asmodeus?
More interested in having one as an NPC, myself. I've always expected Asmodeus' PR department to result in some unusually well-intentioned worshippers.
Though of course as the GM I don't need a trait to introduce whatever possibly heretical NPCs I like.
*The trait was not intended to allow paladins of Asmodeus.
So, should we expect a FAQ or Errata for this, as the currently written RAW suggests otherwise?
Is the trait not being allowed for PFS then, or are you referring to the above expected FAQ or errata?
*PFS will not be allowing paladins of Asmodeus.
Paladins aren't divine spell casters as per explanation above, so no errata/FAQ needed. The trait doesn't validate an incorrect choice, you need to choose the deity before you are a divine caster. Essentially the "prerequisite" isn't met.
As for PFS, they have more strict rules/extra requirements remembering previous threads. They aren't allowed to not follow a specific deity despite that being an option in the write up (same with clerics I believe). I dont play PFS so I have no clue where the rules regarding that would be to provide a link unfortunately.