Fencing Grace Question


Advice


Is Fencing Grace the only way to combine dual-wielding AND Dex to damage, other than buying Agile weapons?


I think you can do something like that with Slashing Grace also.


Slashing Grace specifically says that you don't gain the benefit when fighting with two weapons, does it not?


RaizielDragon wrote:
Slashing Grace specifically says that you don't gain the benefit when fighting with two weapons, does it not?

Whoops.

:(


I believe this is technically the case.

Though, personally I believe the change to Slashing Grace should also apply to Fencing Grace, but since Fencing Grace comes from a separate book that is not from the core lineup of books it will most likely not be errata'd.

You could also take levels in Unchained Rogue.


Hmm. The Unchained Rogues Finesse Training works with any finesse-able weapon as well, instead of just rapiers. That's pretty cool.

I kind of had my heart set on being straight Fighter, maybe with Two Weapon Warrior. I'd be losing a lot of feat slots by going Rogue, and TWF-ing is kind of feat intensive. I was also counting on Armor Training (or Defensive Flurry) to have a nice high AC with the high max Dex in heavy mithral armor (or light/medium with the Dodge bonus from Defensive Flurry). I'd also be losing BAB and Weapon Training. The upside would be all that Sneak Attack damage.

If you are hidden from your opponent and initiate a full-attack action, do they stay flat-footed for the entirety of the attack? I.E.: Would I get Sneak Attack with all of the attacks in a full-attack action if my opponent was flat-footed when I initiated the attack?

Grand Lodge

Whirling Dervish Swashbuckler can do it at 4th level with any light or one-handed piercing melee weapon.


Aha. I checked Swashbuckler, specifically Whirling Dervish since it sounded like a dual-wielder, but stopped reading after I saw that their Dervish Finesse didn't work for fual-wielding.

So, Dervish Finesse only alters Swashbuckler Finesse, meaning you still have Swasbuckler finesse, meaning that Dervish Dance applies? Interesting.

you also get pseudo-pounce via Whirlwind Dance at 7th, correct?

Grand Lodge

You just don't get the benefit for Scimitars, if you wield a weapon or shield in your off-hand.

You Swashbuckler Finesse functions normally.

You just have a special option of using it with a Scimitar, but only under certain conditions.

Do you understand?

Scarab Sages

Unchained Rogue can also get dex to damage on two-weapon fighting, without exploiting the sloppily written Whirling Dervish to go against RAI.

The only problem is that double slice doesn't work with it.

Grand Lodge

I don't understand.

Are you saying a Whirling Dervish can't finesse a dagger, without a free hand?

Or, are you saying they can't finesse a dagger at all?

My reading says, they can finesse two daggers, at the same time, just like the ordinary Swashbuckler.

Scarab Sages

Yes they can finesse a dagger. I'm saying that I believe the Dervish Dance was intended to allow Dex to damage on the Scimitar only and to be only available when using one hand.

However, because the archetype was poorly written, RAW, you absolutely can use DEX to damage while two-weapon fighting. I just believe it is an exploit.

Grand Lodge

Really?

That seems like a heavy investment, for something that a plain Swashbuckler can do at level 2, with a 2 skill point, one feat investment.

The thing seems to work fine.

I don't see why Unchained Rogue needs the absolute monopoly on class features that provide dex to damage with melee weapons.


What can Swashbucklers do with 2 skill points and a feat?

Grand Lodge

Get the Dervish Dance feat.


Gotcha.

Can Double Slice ever be used with Dex instead of Str? If not, is there another way to get full Dex on off-hand?

Grand Lodge

Nah.

You could go Sacred Fist Warpriest, and Flurry with Rapier/Scimitar.

Basically, two weapon fighting.


Would it be a stretch to house-rule a feat that is essentially the Dex version of Double Slice, or does that seem like an acceptable feat?


RaizielDragon wrote:
Would it be a stretch to house-rule a feat that is essentially the Dex version of Double Slice, or does that seem like an acceptable feat?

I don't see why not. Quite frankly, if you have to spend a feat for full Strength, I don't see why it would be any less or any more to get the same for a different statistic.

Of course, you would have to put in a clause that says it only applies to Finessable weapons.


That seems like an acceptable clause, though almost unnecessary, since I can't imagine why a character would be dual-wielding non-finessable weapons, and therefore still be using Str to attack, and want to be able to apply their full Dex mod to the off-hand weapon.

Grand Lodge

My DM uses this:

Path of War wrote:

Deadly Agility [Combat]

You have learned how to use your agility to greater purpose in battle.
Prerequisites: Weapon Finesse, base attack bonus +1
Benefit: You may add your Dexterity modifier in place of your Strength modifier when wielding a light weapon or a weapon that gains the benefits of the Weapon Finesse feat (such as the Rapier) when determining additional damage inflicted upon a successful attack. This modifier to damage is not increased for two-handed weapons, but is not reduced for off-hand weapons.


So it's essentially Fencing Grace + Double Slice (Dex instead of Str)? That seems like a pretty amazing feat to be allowed to have.

Grand Lodge

No balance issues so far.

We are already 7th.

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