Everyone is staring at each other... Surprise round?


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Shadow Lodge

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_Ozy_ wrote:
And, once again though I can't believe I need to say it, initiative is a metagame concept.

Incorrect usage of "metagame" detected!

Initiative is a game mechanic. There is nothing metagame about initiative in and of itself.

Players who roll initiative and then act within it are not metagaming at all.

A player who memorizes the initiative bonus of every monster in the upcoming module and then builds their character or buys initiative enhancements in order to improve his odds to statistically beat all his upcoming foes in initiative is metagaming.

Shadow Lodge

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Also +1 that you cannot take a "ready action" outside of initiative. This is crystal clear in how the rules are presented. One only needs to look up at CRB pg202 to see the header "Special Initiative Actions" that introduces the "Ready" section on pg203 to see it clearly.

This doesn't prevent characters from describing themselves as "being ready" for something - although such flavor text is nothing more than flavor text and does nothing to automatically grant surprise rounds. The archer behind the arrow slits, as long as he's not gambling or sleeping, is certainly "ready for an enemy to take on the castle", just as someone approaching the castle is "ready for someone to defend the castle". Assume everyone is always ready, and if you think a surprise round is appropriate, run the rules for determining if a surprise round happens.

A stealthy, lightly armored defender hiding behind near total cover of an arrow slit has a great chance of getting that surprise round in - in fact I'd say it's almost certain against a character with poor perception.

However, sometimes the person approaching the castle has +40 Perception and the defender is an ogre wearing full plate with -8 Stealth, so the odds of that surprise round are fairly low as the wily 20th level inquisitor spots and hears the ogre shifting anxiously behind said arrow slit.

Shadow Lodge

And to answer the OP since I'm just posting in this thread the first time.

tchayl wrote:
We are all ready to fight, everyone knows where everyone is, but we haven't rolled initiative or started fighting. Surprise round for the first to act? Is everyone still flat footed?

When you say "we are all ready to fight", you are basically suggesting a situation where there should be no surprise round.

Presumably this encounter began with both sides at an "unfriendly" attitude (as you would be in combat if they were "hostile"). Depending on what's going on, perhaps you talk them into "indifferent" or "friendly", which at this stage implies people are not "all ready to fight" and some other mechanics/rules may come into play to determine if a surprise round could happen.

Generally, drawing a weapon is a move action. Meaning, it's relatively slow. You're unstrapping a fairly obvious greatsword on your back. You're sliding a longsword from its scabbard. Someone with amazing reactions (high Dex/Initiative) can easily react quicker than you. Perhaps they run away while you are working to get that blade free.

Quickdrawing a hidden weapon is also a move action. In game terms, this means it's taking 2-3 seconds.

If your social encounter has gotten to helpful/friendly/indifferent, the character seeking a surprise round needs to pull some antics to obtain it. First, we have the Diplomacy success to set your potential enemies at ease (Diplomacy being the check if it's another party member genuinely trying to make friends). If whoever is talking is complicit in the ambush, it would actually be Bluff vs Sense Motive.

Now, the person desiring the surprise round needs to figure out how they get it. Do you point in the background and say "hey what's that?" while you draw your weapon? Probably Bluff vs Sense Motive. Do you walk behind the bar or another PC and try to slide your weapon into hand quietly and unseen? Probably Sleight of Hand vs Perception. Presumably your foe could even read the intentions on your face, so Bluff vs Sense Motive also may be called for here. If your character is a "shady looking sort", a GM could even suggest that a wary foe is paying particular attention to them, so as you try to move behind the bar, one of the opposing side would even follow you to keep their eyes on you. There's a lot at play here and it's not trivial to get surprise rounds when there's a circle of people chatting - but that will vary from GM to GM.

Silver Crusade

Six pages of arguing about the meaning of the word combatant is not for me, so read this if you like.

Two situations: getting the drop on someone (the term is just what I'm using). Getting to act before the person is really aware you are acting and not able to defend himself. This is being caught flatfooted when someone else in the round goes before you. You knew a fight was possible (They have fists) but they reacted faster.

Surprise: When you are completely at the mercy of the other person for a round because you were unaware they were there. That is why you don't get an action, and you are still flatfoot until your turn after the surprise round. You are caught completely with your hands in your pants.
This only happens when you are unaware of the opponent. Being caught off guard because the guy was quick or is attacking unexpectedly is just being caught flatfooted, and if you have a good enough reaction time, (high init) then you can even manage to move faster then that guy and get the jump on him.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Crimeo wrote:


If both you and the monster have readied actions for when the door opens, then the PC isn't automatically going first anymore... if only one of them does, then that one's gonna go first.

This would favor casters and one hit wonders over people that need full round actions to be effective (ie, most melee) because then everyone would only have partial actions when the door opens.

Correction: it DOES favor casters and one hit wonders, not "would"

Quote:
Players who roll initiative and then act within it are not metagaming at all.

He meant acting contingently based on information about your initiative, not just doing things in initiative order....

And usuaally people mean "gaming using character meta-information" when they use that term here. Not "acting completely outside pathfinder" The meta refers to character not pathfinder.

Quote:
Also +1 that you cannot take a "ready action" outside of initiative. This is crystal clear

Agreed. That's why initiative is simply rolled when you say you want to ready an action if you aren't already in initiative. Ta da! Now all your readies have an initiative to work off of no matter what, and you can do it whenever you like.

Just like attacking someone rolls initiative.

Otherwise, since characters don't "know" when they've rolled initiative, anything else would be endorsing, again, metagaming, because whether or not you are physically barred from thinking ahead about something (lol) would be a means by which a character could evaluate their initiative order meta information. So it breaks proper information flow and character knowledge, in addition to being straight up utterly ridiculously dumb that you have to be "in combat" to physically be capable of thinking ahead and planning something.

When anything would be really really dumb, and there's any other way of interpreting it, both of which are the case here, you should interpret it in the way that doesn't lead to the really really dumb outcome.


wakedown wrote:
Also +1 that you cannot take a "ready action" outside of initiative. This is crystal clear in how the rules are presented. One only needs to look up at CRB pg202 to see the header "Special Initiative Actions" that introduces the "Ready" section on pg203 to see it clearly.

You've already been corrected on the metagame issue, so I won't bother to repeat the point. Furthermore, using your above logic you look through the CRB to the 'Combat' section where it describes ranged attacks, and thus come to the obvious conclusions that you can only shoot an arrow during combat.

Quote:
This doesn't prevent characters from describing themselves as "being ready" for something - although such flavor text is nothing more than flavor text and does nothing to automatically grant surprise rounds. The archer behind the arrow slits, as long as he's not gambling or sleeping, is certainly "ready for an enemy to take on the castle", just as someone approaching the castle is "ready for someone to defend the castle". Assume everyone is always ready, and if you think a surprise round is appropriate, run the rules for determining if a surprise round happens.

I'm not looking for flavor text, I'm looking for a mechanical difference in readiness between a guy strolling through a mall and a SWAT team sweeping a building. You are saying there are none. I'm saying that the SWAT team is doing combinations of move+ready actions even if there are no hostile opponents.

Unfortunately, people seemed to be locked into the mindset that characters are supposed to act like they are out on a stroll instead of probing lethal territory.


DM_Blake wrote:
It does not apply when one of those guys expects the other one and readies to clobber him the instant he sees him. This is no longer equality. The guy expecting the encounter SHOULD have an advantage.
Crimeo wrote:
...if only one of them does, then that one's gonna go first.

So I agree with giving them an advantage, but it's the idea that the one who has readied an action will automatically go first that I don't buy. You don't get to go first. Watch a few prank-videos-gone-wrong to see someone who knows he's about to jump out at someone unsuspecting and gets clocked by that person to see why.

Using readied actions is trying to break the initiative system. Argue for an advantage to the SWAT team tactics, but don't expect to automatically go first. The argument of what's meta and what isn't is baffling- to me all this posturing about what can and can't happen before initiative boils to this: you want to make sure you go first. And it sounds like you'll use whatever justification you can find to insure that when you really really want to, you will. Is it realistic for the SWAT team to go first? Yes. Should it be a guarantee? No.

How far off the tracks have we gone on this issue, now? We've got invisible, still spelled casters and swat teams with readied actions through hostile dungeons when the OP asked about using quickdraw during a conversation. Have we answered OP's question? Maybe now's a good time to circle back and see. I'll again reference the prank videos as an illustration of preempted attacks.


? Prank video? They guy jumps out, he gets punched. Was there some readied action the jumper had that was preempted? Is the prankster a 10th level experienced adventurer?

So, you agree there should be an advantage to SWAT team mechanics compared to lackadaisical wandering.

What is that mechanic in Pathfinder?


Quote:
boils to this: you want to make sure you go first.

Duh of course. It's called being a rational creature with self-preservation.

***Nothing is stopping the NPCs, mind you, from ALSO acting as rational creatures with self-preservation, and ALSO readying actions when they go around corners SWAT-style too...***

Thus, nobody is at an inherent advantage by virtue of being PCs or NPCs The only characters at any inherent disadvantage are ones who are too dumb or lack the self preservation to use the proper tools at their disposal and who CHOOSE not to move around carefully.

Quote:
Is it realistic for the SWAT team to go first? Yes. Should it be a guarantee? No.

And it's NOT guaranteed, by RAW, because the NPCs can use the same tactics.

Quote:
Using readied actions is trying to break the initiative system

Using an ability Paizo specifically wrote into their rules about how the initiative system works, the sole purpose of which is to act at a different point in initiative, is "trying to break Paizo's initiative system?" Lolwut?

I suppose attacking with a sword is "Trying to break the hitpoint system" too? And conversely, wearing armor is "trying to break the sword system"?

How dare you use equipment that tries to stop you from getting hit! What a cheater, gawd.


Crimeo wrote:
Agreed. That's why initiative is simply rolled when you say you want to ready an action if you aren't already in initiative. Ta da! Now all your readies have an initiative to work off of no matter what, and you can do it whenever you like.

Oh man, if that were actually the way it worked, that would open up so much cheese. Just to take the most obvious, if you could start the initiative sequence whenever you wanted, you'd be perfectly within your rights to start readying an action the moment you woke up, with a trigger of "someone attacks me", and an action of "take a full defense". Then specify that you will continue taking that throughout the day, during every single six-second interval where you are not doing something that requires a standard action.

And voila! Through this amazing tactic, you've now made it nearly impossible for anyone to ever catch you flat-footed at the "start" of combat. Whenever you run into enemies in whatever dungeon you're exploring, they're not starting a new initiative sequence, they're just belatedly joining into the ongoing one you started at the beginning of the day with your readied action, and have been running consecutively since then (which you have obviously already acted in long ago).

This would be particularly great against melee attacks, since you can also take a five-foot step as part of your readied action. So if anyone ever managed to take a swing at you in what in a normal game would have been "before you first acted in that combat", it trips your readied action, and you can five-foot step away giving you a free miss.


claymade wrote:
Crimeo wrote:
Agreed. That's why initiative is simply rolled when you say you want to ready an action if you aren't already in initiative. Ta da! Now all your readies have an initiative to work off of no matter what, and you can do it whenever you like.

Oh man, if that were actually the way it worked, that would open up so much cheese. Just to take the most obvious, if you could start the initiative sequence whenever you wanted, you'd be perfectly within your rights to start readying an action the moment you woke up, with a trigger of "someone attacks me", and an action of "take a full defense". Then specify that you will continue taking that throughout the day, during every single six-second interval where you are not doing something that requires a standard action.

Yeah, there are people like that. We call them paranoid schizophrenics and often lock them up for their own safety.

On the other hand, SWAT teams.

Or, how you guys seem to want to play it, characters acting like idiots strolling through a dungeon.


Quote:
you'd be perfectly within your rights to start readying an action the moment you woke up, with a trigger of "someone attacks me", and an action of "take a full defense".

[edited] Yeah have fun not having any standard actions available all day. Including not putting on your armor, not eating or drinking anything, not readying any spells, etc. Or at least not being protected during those. Also more importantly (because it isn't fixed by temporarily suspending your readying), you only travel at half speed compared to everyone else, because you're spending one of your two actions each turn doing this.

Everyone is also going to look at you weirdly and think you're schizophrenic on the street, as you stop every 3 seconds and focus on the horizon, then walk a few more feet, then stop...

Plus you'd get fatigued if you did this sort of thing for more than 8 hours a day, by my reading.

PLUS, you can just have half your NPCs walk around with readied actions "if anybody takes a total defensive stance, shoot them in the face." and the PC will STILL get shot prior to his +4AC anyway, if he doesn't roll higher on initiative.

NOR do I actually even agree that this is "cheesy" -- if you literally spent half your time thinking about reacting to one thing all day, you realistically WOULD be able to react to it quickly all day. So what?

Quote:
And voila! Through this amazing tactic, you've now made it nearly impossible for anyone to ever catch you flat-footed at the "start" of combat

This would still not be necessarily true. You cannot do readied actions in response to something unless your character is aware of the trigger happening. It's not the same as the spell "contingency" where the universe can just know something happened and magically set off the trigger. Readied actions, by comparison, still require you to perceive the thing to act on it.

So if somebody sneaks up on you etc., you will not get to full defense in reaction to that, because you didn't see the trigger in order to respond with your readied action.


claymade wrote:
Crimeo wrote:
Agreed. That's why initiative is simply rolled when you say you want to ready an action if you aren't already in initiative. Ta da! Now all your readies have an initiative to work off of no matter what, and you can do it whenever you like.

Oh man, if that were actually the way it worked, that would open up so much cheese. Just to take the most obvious, if you could start the initiative sequence whenever you wanted, you'd be perfectly within your rights to start readying an action the moment you woke up, with a trigger of "someone attacks me", and an action of "take a full defense". Then specify that you will continue taking that throughout the day, during every single six-second interval where you are not doing something that requires a standard action.

And voila! Through this amazing tactic, you've now made it nearly impossible for anyone to ever catch you flat-footed at the "start" of combat. Whenever you run into enemies in whatever dungeon you're exploring, they're not starting a new initiative sequence, they're just belatedly joining into the ongoing one you started at the beginning of the day with your readied action, and have been running consecutively since then (which you have obviously already acted in long ago).

This would be particularly great against melee attacks, since you can also take a five-foot step as part of your readied action. So if anyone ever managed to take a swing at you in what in a normal game would have been "before you first acted in that combat", it trips your readied action, and you can five-foot step away giving you a free miss.

I allow people to start initiative/combat whenever they like. We then take turns, in order of initiative, using the combat rules...

Making breakfast this way, assuming @ten minutes cooking time IRL, translates into 60 turns. Even at one minute per person, per turn... assuming four players... that winds up being four hours of real time used to make breakfast in game.

If your players want to do this, you have no right to tell them how to play the game. ;) maybe they want this... who are we to know?

Trust me, run it this way and they will stop cheesing the system.

Source: four hours of roleplaying making breakfast, once, years ago. Group got the point. Haven't tried it since.


Quote:
Making breakfast this way, assuming @ten minutes cooking time IRL, translates into 60 turns. Even at one minute per person, per turn... assuming four players... that winds up being four hours of real time used to make breakfast in game.

Except nothing in the rules says a turn has to take the same amount of table time as the time it represents in game.

Forcing it to do so is just as much a house rule as it would be to just ban readied actions as a house rule.

Allowing walking around and anything else using actions from the combat chapter, as well, without going turn by turn, while simultaneously NOT allowing other actions without going turn by turn = just as much of a house rule as banning readied actions would be.


alexd1976 wrote:

I allow people to start initiative/combat whenever they like. We then take turns, in order of initiative, using the combat rules...

Making breakfast this way, assuming @ten minutes cooking time IRL, translates into 60 turns. Even at one minute per person, per turn... assuming four players... that winds up being four hours of real time used to make...

Great. Let's skip the breakfast part and fast forward to the dungeon. About to open a door? Let's start initiative. I ready an action. Go.

So, sounds like you're on board then?


_Ozy_ wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:

I allow people to start initiative/combat whenever they like. We then take turns, in order of initiative, using the combat rules...

Making breakfast this way, assuming @ten minutes cooking time IRL, translates into 60 turns. Even at one minute per person, per turn... assuming four players... that winds up being four hours of real time used to make...

Great. Let's skip the breakfast part and fast forward to the dungeon. About to open a door? Let's start initiative. I ready an action. Go.

So, sounds like you're on board then?

Assuming the people on the other side of the door aren't aware of you, the readied action gives you an attack, maybe... kinda like a surprise round might...

Hrm...

We do this, and have never seen it become an issue. Not once.

Of course, we actually have people DECLARE the triggers for readied actions, something like this:

"When the door opens, if I see an opponent, I fire at him with my crossbow".

Sometimes it's unclear as to whether or not someone is an opponent (a non-moving undead is just a corpse, that statue might be an animated object and so on).

Really haven't had problems with this, it baffles me that other people think it breaks combat or something.


_Ozy_ wrote:

? Prank video? They guy jumps out, he gets punched. Was there some readied action the jumper had that was preempted? Is the prankster a 10th level experienced adventurer?

So, you agree there should be an advantage to SWAT team mechanics compared to lackadaisical wandering.

What is that mechanic in Pathfinder?

I see we're circling back to the old contentions that I can't convince you of. Imagine with me for a moment that the action isn't "I jump out of this trash can" but "I use my natural attack when this guy gets within 5 ft" The 'jumping out' is part of the action of closing to melee to hit the other guy, and yes- it gets preempted.

The mechanic is DM fiat. Quit trying to hijack the entire initiative system to fit your corner-case scenarios where you automatically go first because the system isn't so minute that it handles each and every scenario you can come up with. I've seen it argued many times that pursuing rules adjudication to that level would make the game not fun, and I agree. I'm sure your table has tons of fun SWAT-teaming dungeons and/or tell fond stories of the time your wizard killed half the party before they knew what was even happening. Mine would not.

Crimeo wrote:
And it's NOT guaranteed, by RAW, because the NPCs can use the same tactics.

By your interpretation. By my interpretation, by RAW, it's not guaranteed even in a situation where the other party doesn't have a readied action. And I'll leave it there.


_Ozy_ wrote:
]Or, how you guys seem to want to play it, characters acting like idiots strolling through a dungeon.

Or, we could just assume that initiative represents (in a generalized, abstracted way) an alert adventurer being "appropriately cautious" for the situation, and that the enemies (which can hold themselves to similar standards) are using, on average, similar tactics, meaning that we just factor it back to initiative again without having to laboriously spell it all out. We could also assume that readying an action represents an extra level of "utterly hair-trigger focus" that is not so mentally sustainable over more protracted periods to that extent. Hence why it's only allowable inside the initiative tick of a given combat.

Crimeo wrote:

This would still not be necessarily true. You cannot do readied actions in response to something unless your character is aware of the trigger happening. It's not the same as the spell "contingency" where the universe can just know something happened and magically set off the trigger. Readied actions, by comparison, still require you to perceive the thing to act on it.

So if somebody sneaks up on you etc., you will not get to full defense in reaction to that, because you didn't see the trigger in order to respond with your readied action.

Actually, what I actually said in what you quoted has nothing to do with the readied action itself. If the player is allowed to arbitrarily start the initiative tick, they've already acted. They might be denied DEX if their opponent is invisible or whatever while attacking, which is always the case. But no matter what the action was (ready, move, attack, whatever) if they've already acted in that initiative count (which they obviously have, in this setup) it sidesteps the whole rule about how you're flat-footed if you haven't yet.

Basically, what this would allow is that players could say, even just at the entrance of the dungeon, say "okay, that rule about how you're flat footed until you've acted once in a given combat encounter? we're just going to decide to start the one single combat initiative tick for this dungeon now, and now no monster within will be able to catch us with that rule, because we say so."

Man, it'd suck to be a rogue in that kind of game...


Quote:

Of course, we actually have people DECLARE the triggers for readied actions, something like this:

"When the door opens, if I see an opponent, I fire at him with my crossbow".

Sometimes it's unclear as to whether or not someone is an opponent (a non-moving undead is just a corpse, that statue might be an animated object and so on).

Well of course you have to declare what your conditions are.

And I believe it says that if the triggering is unclearly satisfying the conditions, that it just fizzles.


alexd1976 wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:

I allow people to start initiative/combat whenever they like. We then take turns, in order of initiative, using the combat rules...

Making breakfast this way, assuming @ten minutes cooking time IRL, translates into 60 turns. Even at one minute per person, per turn... assuming four players... that winds up being four hours of real time used to make...

Great. Let's skip the breakfast part and fast forward to the dungeon. About to open a door? Let's start initiative. I ready an action. Go.

So, sounds like you're on board then?

Assuming the people on the other side of the door aren't aware of you, the readied action gives you an attack, maybe... kinda like a surprise round might...

Hrm...

We do this, and have never seen it become an issue. Not once.

Of course, we actually have people DECLARE the triggers for readied actions, something like this:

"When the door opens, if I see an opponent, I fire at him with my crossbow".

Sometimes it's unclear as to whether or not someone is an opponent (a non-moving undead is just a corpse, that statue might be an animated object and so on).

Really haven't had problems with this, it baffles me that other people think it breaks combat or something.

Absolutely! And if you make them decide whether to take the readied action before you actually roll for initiative, then they are faced with the decision, do they take the high initiative action based on a quick snapshot of the situation, or do they lose the readied action and act on their normal initiative (whatever that might be) with a better handle on the situation and more options to choose from.

It's not a given that the readied action will be the correct choice, compared to say, moving out of the way of a charging gorgon for example.


Bingo.


claymade wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:
]Or, how you guys seem to want to play it, characters acting like idiots strolling through a dungeon.

Or, we could just assume that initiative represents (in a generalized, abstracted way) an alert adventurer being "appropriately cautious" for the situation, and that the enemies (which can hold themselves to similar standards) are using, on average, similar tactics, meaning that we just factor it back to initiative again without having to laboriously spell it all out. We could also assume that readying an action represents an extra level of "utterly hair-trigger focus" that is not so mentally sustainable over more protracted periods to that extent. Hence why it's only allowable inside the initiative tick of a given combat.

Except that we know that it doesn't. Initiative occurs when you're drinking in a bar, strolling down a park path, and every other situation where you wouldn't normally expect combat to erupt.

The only mechanic that sufficiently represents being on 'high alert' in anticipation of an iminent potentially deadly threat is a readied action.


alexd1976 wrote:


Sometimes it's unclear as to whether or not someone is an opponent (a non-moving undead is just a corpse, that statue might be an animated object and so on).

Really haven't had problems with this, it baffles me that other people think it breaks combat or something.

In the context of OP's question. The point of contention lies on whether a surprise round should be granted or not for this 'awareness'. I'm not sure how we got to all this ridiculousness.


claymade wrote:
Man, it'd suck to be a rogue in that kind of game...

Well, it sucks to be a rogue in every game. ;)

Seriously, though, if the rogue is using stealth, they still get to sneak attack with their first attack. And, once combat starts they need flank and flat-footedness is irrelevant.

We actually do have a rogue in a couple of our games, and the initial flat-footedeness of the enemies has been largely irrelevant.


Quote:
Or, we could just assume that initiative represents (in a generalized, abstracted way) an alert adventurer being "appropriately cautious" for the situation, and that the enemies (which can hold themselves to similar standards) are using, on average, similar tactics, meaning that we just factor it back to initiative again without having to laboriously spell it all out.

This would not be the effective mechanical outcome of both sides actually declaring readied actions, unless 100% of the time, their readied actions were both always to the exact same triggers. Which is of course not going to be the case. Thus, in reality, they won't just "Cancel out" the large majority of the time. Rather, the one who came up with the more appropriate trigger and conditions will tend to have the advantage.

Thus, ruling that they cancel out is not a shortcut to an inevitable outcome of following the written rules. It would instead be a whole different mechanic that would amount to a house rule.

Quote:
We could also assume that readying an action represents an extra level of "utterly hair-trigger focus" that is not so mentally sustainable over more protracted periods to that extent. Hence why it's only allowable inside the initiative tick of a given combat.

This is something that everybody's position so far in the discussion could agree is not RAW. Because imagine that a regular combat were, in fact, raging in the background, the type of combat that everybody on these boards would agree is true initiative (not self-initiated or anything. An actual pair of let's say near-immortal goblins with full plate but terrible attack rolls constantly fighting and missing one another in a nearby pit).

If so, then RAW in that case would allow for me readying actions every turn for at least 8 hours (your "adventuring day") without fatigue.

So if it wouldn't fatigue you by RAW in THAT situation that we can all agree on, why would it fatigue you over 8 hours in any other situation? Declaring that it does would be another house rule.

Quote:
Actually, what I actually said in what you quoted has nothing to do with the readied action itself. If the player is allowed to arbitrarily start the initiative tick, they've already acted.

Ah I see. Okay, but so? Even if your rule is that initiative only occurs with actual attacks, I can buy some pet or familiar with fast healing and have the wizard unarmed slap it every round as we walk along thus forcing combat initiative all day anyway, and get this same advantage.

That's a quirk of the poorly worded definition of flat-footed, not the fault of readied actions, etc.


Crimeo, regarding fatigue and readied actions.

I toyed with the idea of having the stress of constantly readying actions give the characters fatigue at one point, to be honest...

My current approach works much better. It gives the PLAYER fatigue. Much more effective at preventing the mechanical abuse.

:D


Quote:
My current approach works much better. It gives the PLAYER fatigue. Much more effective at preventing the mechanical abuse.

I don't disagree that it's effective. I disagree that it's any MORE effective than just announcing that you're banning readied actions in XYZ circumstances. And I also disagree that your way is any more "RAW" than announcing this would be, since it only works if you enforce timing and such that isn't a written requirement.

And yet the announcement would waste a lot less of everybody's time and not be all passive aggressive about it.


alexd1976 wrote:

Crimeo, regarding fatigue and readied actions.

I toyed with the idea of having the stress of constantly readying actions give the characters fatigue at one point, to be honest...

My current approach works much better. It gives the PLAYER fatigue. Much more effective at preventing the mechanical abuse.

:D

I'm really confused by this. Why wouldn't the players just ready actions when they are in the dungeon rather than at breakfast? You said you allow them to decide, so why would they decide to waste time scrambling eggs?


_Ozy_ wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:

Crimeo, regarding fatigue and readied actions.

I toyed with the idea of having the stress of constantly readying actions give the characters fatigue at one point, to be honest...

My current approach works much better. It gives the PLAYER fatigue. Much more effective at preventing the mechanical abuse.

:D

I'm really confused by this. Why wouldn't the players just ready actions when they are in the dungeon rather than at breakfast? You said you allow them to decide, so why would they decide to waste time scrambling eggs?

It was an example pulled from real life. I actually did have a player who said he traveled everywhere with a readied action to fire his crossbow at anyone who attacked him.

They now DO often ready actions in dungeons, usually just before opening doors.

What they DON'T do is travel with readied actions. :D


Ah, got it. Agree with that.


He originally used the word "threatened" instead of "attacked", but after killing several innocent passers-by that got too close, changed the wording.

It was a contest of wills, and I didn't see a need to alter the rules of the game.

My approach worked, ultimately. I just wish he hadn't been so insistent about wasting so much of my time (the rest of the party thought it was hilarious, so we actually did play the entire breakfast out in combat rounds. We declared that eggs require 1 point of damage to crack properly, the rogue wound up sneak attacking one to see what would happen... strange group.)


_Ozy_ wrote:
Except that we know that it doesn't. Initiative occurs when you're drinking in a bar, strolling down a park path, and every other situation where you wouldn't normally expect combat to erupt.

Hence, "in a generalized, abstracted way".

Nothing's going to be a perfect model, but I personally find assuming that initiative more or less represents that to be a lot less odious than what I can see the readied actions bit doing to the game, and trying to finagle that.

_Ozy_ wrote:

Seriously, though, if the rogue is using stealth, they still get to sneak attack with their first attack. And, once combat starts they need flank and flat-footedness is irrelevant.

We actually do have a rogue in a couple of our games, and the initial flat-footedeness of the enemies has been largely irrelevant.

Well they'd at the very least need some way to get concealment for that to work, which is iffy. It's been a really significant source of the rogue's damage in our game, so I really don't like the idea of just taking it away for the asking.

Crimeo wrote:
Ah I see. Okay, but so? Even if your rule is that initiative only occurs with actual attacks, I can still have the wizard unarmed slap the fighter every round as we walk along and force initiative all day anyway, and get this same advantage.

That wouldn't be "my rule" either. My rule would be, to quote the combat section "At the start of a battle, each combatant makes an initiative check."

So as a GM, I would look at the Wizard slapping the fighter with no intent to kill, think long and hard about whether, in my judgement, it constituted a "battle", then respond "of course not, that's ridiculous", and if any player tried to claim an initiative check for that "battle" I'd roll my eyes and say "no, now stop fooling around and play seriously".


Well, you're only forcing that slap because some mystical universal force prevents them from readying themselves unless they are in combat.

As far as 'perfect model', allowing ready actions before an imminent potentially lethal encounter is a better model than what you're suggesting.

So why not use it?

As far as 'what you see' readied actions doing, you have a few people telling you, straight out, that handled properly they work just fine.

Why don't you believe us?


_Ozy_ wrote:

Well, you're only forcing that slap because some mystical universal force prevents them from readying themselves unless they are in combat.

As far as 'perfect model', allowing ready actions before an imminent potentially lethal encounter is a better model than what you're suggesting.

So why not use it?

As far as 'what you see' readied actions doing, you have a few people telling you, straight out, that handled properly they work just fine.

Why don't you believe us?

What really makes me laugh is that by some peoples usage of readied actions, you could literally have this situation happen:

A group of orcs on the other side of a dungeon door, totally aware of the player party... wishing that they could DO something to prepare for the inevitable attack... if only... the rules... allowed them to.

Instead they have to wait for the mystical force that determines combat has begun before they can take actions.

No drawn weapons, no readied actions... but waiting and talking about their inability to act, that's allowed.


I mean, if we stick to the idea that you can only perform combat actions during combat, you can never INITIATE an attack.

Because you can't attack unless you are in combat.


Quote:
He originally used the word "threatened" instead of "attacked", but after killing several innocent passers-by that got too close, changed the wording.

Erm, you don't have to take your readied action when the trigger occurs. It's your choice.

"Then, anytime before your next action, you MAY take the readied action in response to that condition."

Quote:

I mean, if we stick to the idea that you can only perform combat actions during combat, you can never INITIATE an attack.

Because you can't attack unless you are in combat.

Very well put.


Crimeo wrote:
Quote:
He originally used the word "threatened" instead of "attacked", but after killing several innocent passers-by that got too close, changed the wording.

Erm, you don't have to take your readied action when the trigger occurs. It's your choice.

"Then, anytime before your next action, you MAY take the readied action in response to that condition."

Quote:

I mean, if we stick to the idea that you can only perform combat actions during combat, you can never INITIATE an attack.

Because you can't attack unless you are in combat.

Very well put.

I know it's optional, but we often just go with it regardless.

It was funny. :D


Quote:

Special Initiative Actions

Here are ways to change when you act during combat by altering your place in the initiative order.

The Delay and Ready actions are Special Initiative actions which must be used during combat. If you are not in combat, you can't use these actions.

Further, these are initiative actions thus must be used when characters have already determined initiative.

Quote:
At the start of a battle, each combatant makes an initiative check.

You make an initiative check at the "start of battle". Thus, if you're not beginning a battle, you don't have the privilege of making an initiative check.

Now while there may be some table variation, to me "a battle" means a real fight, not just you slapping your buddy on the back or whatever other cheesy thing you'd like to combat up with.

Thus:
No Battle ->
No Initiative Rolls ->
No Special Initiative Actions ->
No Readies/Delays


Quote:
When a character's turn comes up in the initiative sequence, that character performs his entire round's worth of actions. (For exceptions, see Attacks of Opportunity and Special Initiative Actions.)

So, any action that uses the term 'turn' can't be performed outside of initiative, like casting a full round spell?

Quote:
A spell that takes one round to cast is a full-round action. It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell.

Or, to solve your particular issue, simply declare the start of battle and then ready your action.

There is absolutely NO, I repeat NO rules saying that a player can't arbitrarily declare the start of battle. Finally, pretending that players can't engage in the ready action unless some metagame initiative construct is activated is pretty ludicrous.


As I have already proposed, any GM facing the possible abuse of readied actions...

Just play out everything round by round, after all that's how combat works.

The players will tire of it soon enough.

Readied actions aren't always going to be the best choice anyway, so it's not like they are game breakers...

When the triggering effect happens, you can CHOOSE to take the action. Or you can just not act.

If you have instead rolled initiative, you get to choose what you do, in response to what is happening.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
alexd1976 wrote:
No drawn weapons, no readied actions... but waiting and talking about their inability to act, that's allowed.

No one has said the orcs can't take actions. What has been said is that they can't get free attacks before initiative starts.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:
No drawn weapons, no readied actions... but waiting and talking about their inability to act, that's allowed.
No one has said the orcs can't take actions. What has been said is that they can't get free attacks before initiative starts.

They don't get free attacks before the initiative starts, they get readied actions that are resolved at the appropriate point in the initiative relative to the triggered action.

You know, like how readying an action actually works.


Quote:
You make an initiative check at the "start of battle". Thus, if you're not beginning a battle, you don't have the privilege of making an initiative check.

Sure I have the privilege of initiating whenever I want.

Step 1 if at your super annoying table) "I perform a combat maneuver to reposition Fred."

Step 2) Fred, "Yeah, I resist that maneuver, I'm not gonna let that beotch reposition me."

Step 3) Ta da! We are now in combat. We roll initiative.

Step 4) Whichever one of us wanted to ready an action readies their action on their turn.

Step 5) One of the other guys proceeds to kick down the door.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
_Ozy_ wrote:

They don't get free attacks before the initiative starts, they get readied actions that are resolved at the appropriate point in the initiative relative to the triggered action.

You know, like how readying an action actually works.

So you roll initiative normally and then see where readied actions fall? Why didn't you just SAY so, as that's exactly what I've been saying. I just don't call them readied actions, I call them regular actions.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:

They don't get free attacks before the initiative starts, they get readied actions that are resolved at the appropriate point in the initiative relative to the triggered action.

You know, like how readying an action actually works.

So you roll initiative normally and then see where readied actions fall? Why didn't you just SAY so, as that's exactly what I've been saying. I just don't call them readied actions, I call them regular actions.

Um, no, readied actions can occur at the top of the initiative order depending on the triggering action.

An orc with a readied bow shot and initiative 6 can take his attack on initiative 14 when the door is opened and a target is revealed.

This is how readied actions work. A regular action would mean the orc would have to wait until 6 to act, though in that case he would get is full round action instead of a single standard action from the readied action.


Yeah, the old "bag of rats" trick.

That's why there's a GM around - to say "no" when players get a bit too creative in abusing the rules. And the word "creative" is being used generously here... this is not some particularly new or clever idea, it's just a way to try and break the (not so realistic) combat system.

And I disagree about players being able to declare combat whenever they like. Combat is something that happens in the game world, not something the out-of-character players get to decide. Apart from saying "I attack that guy". Just like you can't fight defensively by attacking the air, you can't get into initiative by fighting the air.

As for starting a combat while another one is running, I believe the rules are silent on the matter, or at the very least, VERY poorly worded. (One easy example: "I delay my turn until initiative count 9001 so that I go before any new people joining the fight.")

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
_Ozy_ wrote:
Um, no, readied actions can occur at the top of the initiative order depending on the triggering action.

And that's really no different from just proceeding in regular initiative. Multiple readied actions at the same time need to resolved somehow, so the easiest way is in initiative order. If someone doesn't get to act, that means you're in a surprise round. If you just resolve all readied actions, you're giving characters a free attack at the start of combat, and then they get to take their full round action on the first turn as well.


Quote:
it's just a way to try and break the (not so realistic) combat system.

No it's a way to get around a GM who is not allowing basic common sense physical things people can obviously do in real life and RAI, like getting ready for something to happen any damn time somebody wants to. (As much as I like to establish clearly what AW is on this forum as a matter of record, a good immersive game should always run by common sense whenever possible, whatever that takes)

Or less ideally, but still better than nothing, to force the GM to admit (via "no.") the house rule that he really wishes to have but is refusing to pony up and announce whole hog: banning readied actions entirely except when he wants them. At least there's some honesty in that case.


Players are assumed to be appropriately ready for things if they're able. This is why the monsters on the other side of the door don't get a surprise round if you know they're there and vice versa. The surprise round is the mechanic used to account for one side being more prepared than the other - not readies outside of combat.


I have already pointed out the house rule is actually allowing readies outside of combat with very clear logic.

I believe someone tried to argue against it with some irrelevant example about standard actions.
(Btw, standard and move actions are used as a general unit of time in addition to their combat uses, although this may well be a house rule. I suggest you start a separate faq thread about this if you care.)

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