Goblin Intelligence


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion


How do goblins use their intelligence scores in golarion? I mean, they're as smart as dwarves or humans or halflings, so what do they direct their intellects towards?

Shadow Lodge

Well, culturally, they carry on everything they've learned by oral tradition. Individual goblins may have good memories, plenty of patience, or sneaky social skills, but culturally, their fear of writing and love of raiding is what's both holding them back and justifying their CE tendencies.

Really, it seems like goblins tend to strive toward what's fun, mostly stealing from the longshanks and setting their writing on fire. Goblin alchemists are proud of finding all sorts of new ways to set things on fire (even themselves, safely, if they get that goblin alchemist prestige class that gives them Fire Body 1 as an extract), goblin bards and teachers try to remember stuff they've learned to tell others about it in a fun way, and leaders have to figure out how to settle disputes and make sure their tribe stays strong.

Of course, since PCs tend to be oddballs, picking an aspiration can help with any time you want to play as a goblin.


personally I think it would be an interesting accomplishment to take goblins separate them from their tribes at birth, and raise them/ educate them; so that they aren't afraid of writing. I don't see why this wouldn't be viable to "recreate" the goblin race into a more devious/menacing form then the "buffoonery" they are currently


The Shifty Mongoose wrote:
Well, culturally, they carry on everything they've learned by oral tradition. Individual goblins may have good memories, plenty of patience, or sneaky social skills, but culturally, their fear of writing and love of raiding is what's both holding them back and justifying their CE tendencies.

I doubt you could attribute too much to illiteracy. Most humans in real history were illiterate, but they got by fairly well with oral tradtions (some of the longer major works in history were orally transmitted; the whole idea of epics)

Illiteracy doesn't help, but it isn't a decisive factor. So looking at factors:
Short lifespans- Certainly doesn't help when trying to build something up and keep a tradition of it when you go through generations twice as fast. There are only 8 years between adulthood and being middle aged.

High turn over in general- goblins. Love of fire and killing, yet highly flammable and killable. Easy prey for monsters, and anyone bright likely gets into explosives and....that goes how you would expect.

Inbreeding and worship of a goddess of mutation- doesn't do them any favors.

Viewed as easy fodder- if any group builds itself up, expect something bigger and meaner to brow beat them into obedience. Thus, theya re turned into tools for a greater power...and when the ziggaraut falls, it si right on their heads. Ergo, everything they built up is wasted in another's ambition.

Shadow Lodge

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True, as it's apparently happened with hobgoblins and bugbears before. Plus, their hatred of pack animals and reliance on raiding and stealing means that they're culturally bad at commerce - rather than building and crafting, they'd rather steal things and figure out how to make those things suit themselves (like dogslicers and horsechoppers). This also means they won't grasp the concept of trading, seeing wagons and such as targets first and foremost.

I was thinking more about their fear of writing implying a cultural disregard of precision, but I'm probably out of line with that presumption. I mean, goblin alchemists can get repeatably good at what they do - the Free RPG Day modules are proof of that.

Also, I'm biased toward kobolds. They tend to put their intellects towards scheming, defensive-designs-as-cultural-artwork, and finding tougher allies to protect them from their former tougher allies.


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The unadulterated and complete transfer of knowledge - literacy - is absolutely a key. Humanity didn't progress beyond the iron age without being literate, because preserving and transfering technical information without being present was key to technological advancement. Laws don't get codified without literacy; Hammurabi felt a level playing field was so important, he had his Code chiseled into stone for the literate.

Oral traditions can only go so far; the Israelites remained herders and wanderers until they gained literacy and were instructed to make exact copies of their religious and secular laws, so that they could not only be applied to everyone, but that they could remain consistent across the years. Otherwise your laws and stories experience drift, because they change, subtly or not so subtly, with every new teller. (Try playing 'telephone' some time, y'know?)

This doesn't mean that illiterate intelligences aren't stupid; clearly they aren't. But it means that they won't progress past a certain point. If goblin tribes are illiterate, and fanatically so for one reason or another - 'Writing something down steals it from your head!! If someone writes your name, they have a hook into your soul!!' - then it follows that they will not progress past a certain point of civilization. They can still forge iron weapons, they can still prepare potions and alchemical brews; both can be learned in oral-tradition master/apprentice social constructs, because let's face it, there's no sin more fun than giving your apprentice a recipe and watching as he gets it just wrong enough for it to blow up in his face, but not wreck your entire forge/hut.

But becoming technological powerhouses requires more. (Or perhaps they fell from BEING technological powerhouses, and their 'writing' was lost when they lost their high tech ...)


I would think if you isolated the goblins from "old" goblin society.. and had education programs (even augmented with magic spells to encode information learning) you could enhance/re-create goblin society

This whole premise could be an incredible story arc imo.. the players find a "lost/hidden goblin city" of vastly superior goblins


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Those are called hobgoblins.

Grand Lodge

Yes.

Also, Bugbears can sometimes spontaneously evolve from a Goblin.

All three Goblinoid races represent the three evils. Chaotic Evil, Lawful Evil, and Neutral Evil.

Goblins are driven by something far deeper than their environment or upbringing.

They are not simply a result of poor education a destructive cultural norms.


That depends on the world you're playing in, but for Golarion, you're essentially correct.

Grand Lodge

The OP speaks specifically to Golarion.

Sczarni

Note - there *are* more intellegent goblins in Golarion - they live in Korvosa where they were brought as exotic slaves and fed potions to increase their intelligence to make good servants. (See "Prize Pupil," written by Paizo Publisher Erik Mona in Pathfinder Goblins issue #1)


The Wyrm Ouroboros wrote:
Those are called hobgoblins.

Hobgoblins were deliberately engineered from goblins using a powerful artifact, they don't happen naturally like bugbears.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Milo v3 wrote:
How do goblins use their intelligence scores in golarion? I mean, they're as smart as dwarves or humans or halflings, so what do they direct their intellects towards?

Not very effectively. Their use of their intelligence is hampered by the irrational fear of writing, and their general chaos and insanity. Their intelligence is generally channeled into their native cunning.


Milo v3 wrote:
How do goblins use their intelligence scores in golarion? I mean, they're as smart as dwarves or humans or halflings, so what do they direct their intellects towards?

When the put their minds to it, goblins have been shown to be brilliant, if highly unorthodox alchemists. They are also quite skilled at spoken poetry, dance, handicrafts, and weaving. While goblins are incredibly unfocused and crude, they are by no means stupid.


Honestly, if goblin racial bonuses could be altered, I'd give them a penalty to Wis, not Cha, considering how good they are at art, singing, and such. Just because it's not appreciated outside their species doesn't mean it's not forceful personalities. Additionally, goblins are frighteningly unwise when it comes to certain decisions... like anything related to fire and explosions. They're smart enough to make firebombs out of damn near anything, but not wise enough to avoid their own explosions.

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