Tie-Up Grappling Rules

[Thewms]

It was brought up in this thread that there may be some disagreeance as to how the Tie-Up portion of the grappling rules are intended to function.

~~pertinant info~~

Grapple:

As a standard action, you can attempt to grapple a foe, hindering his combat options. If you do not have Improved Grapple, grab, or a similar ability, attempting to grapple a foe provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver. Humanoid creatures without two free hands attempting to grapple a foe take a –4 penalty on the combat maneuver roll. If successful, both you and the target gain the grappled condition (see the Appendices). If you successfully grapple a creature that is not adjacent to you, move that creature to an adjacent open space (if no space is available, your grapple fails). Although both creatures have the grappled condition, you can, as the creature that initiated the grapple, release the grapple as a free action, removing the condition from both you and the target. If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold. If your target does not break the grapple, you get a +5 circumstance bonus on grapple checks made against the same target in subsequent rounds. Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple).

Tie Up:

If you have your target pinned, otherwise restrained, or unconscious, you can use rope to tie him up. This works like a pin effect, but the DC to escape the bonds is equal to 20 + your Combat Maneuver Bonus (instead of your CMD). The ropes do not need to make a check every round to maintain the pin. If you are grappling the target, you can attempt to tie him up in ropes, but doing so requires a combat maneuver check at a –10 penalty. If the DC to escape from these bindings is higher than 20 + the target's CMB, the target cannot escape from the bonds, even with a natural 20 on the check. Tie-Up

When you maintain your grapple, you have the option to tie up your opponent.

1:Is rope required to already be in one of your hands to choose this option?
2:Do you then gain the -4 penalty due to now having one hand no longer free?
3:When attempting to tie up an opponent not pinned, otherwise restrained, or unconscious does the -10 penalty include the -4 for only having one hand free?

I have seen it ruled both ways and was looking for some input as both a GM and a player.

[Chris Lambertz]

Removed some posts and adjusted thread title.

[galahad2112]

I'm none too clear on the tie-up portion of the grapple rules (is anyone really?), and I would love some clarification there as well.

[Shadowlords]

lol, I was here for all the original posts, refreshed the page and it was gone, what a glorious day. Thank you chris.

[Hendelbolaf]

I have ruled that if the one doing the grappling has rope readily available, such as on a belt or over the shoulder, then they can use that without any further actions required to retrieve the rope. If it is stored then normal retrieval actions would be necessary and that would cause the grapple or pin to go down to a one handed action with the associated penalty. So the moral of the story is to have rope available if that is your plan.

I have usually not tagged them with the -4 penalty when they have the rope/manacles in hand and are grappling. That may not be completely RAW but the rules are a little silent on minute details so we are left to adjudicate these situations on our own.

If you are applying the -4 penalty for the hands not being free, then I think the -10 penalty to go from grapple to tied up is an additional -10 penalty.

The other issue that we have debated in my groups is what is the DC to break out the tied up condition?

Is it 20 + CMB or the break DC of the rope or manacles?

I have ruled that it is 20 + CMB and that the break DC for the rope is when you have two hands free and are actively trying to burst or tear a rope. If you are tied up, then your rang of motion is limited and you need to make the 20 + CMB check.

I hope that helps

PS I guess I missed the good stuff but I can only imagine what it would be in a thread about grappling...

[Imbicatus]

Hendelbolaf wrote:

PS I guess I missed the good stuff but I can only imagine what it would be in a thread about grappling...

It wouldn't be bad unless there are also succubi in the thread...

Back on topic, by RAW, if you have the rope in hand and don't have more than two arms, you would take the -4 to grapple checks unless you have Grabbing Style.