Clarification- Double slice and Dexterity to damage


Rules Questions


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

Okay so i know there are other threads on this, but the two i've seen are a bit dated, there have been changes and what not.

Does double slice work if you have dexterity to Damage? my usage is unchained rogue, dual wielding emei piercer's both light weapons.

there seem to be alot of mixed opinions on this.

Scarab Sages

No. Double slice does absolutely nothing for an unchained rogue per this FAQ.

FAQ wrote:

Unchained Rogue Finesse Training: When I'm replacing Strength for Dexterity, what happens with a one-handed weapon? What about an off-hand weapon?

With a two-handed weapon, you add 1-1/2 times your Dexterity bonus on damage rolls, and with an off-hand weapon, you add half your Dexterity bonus on damage rolls. As per the ability's text, if an effect would prevent you from adding your Strength modifier on damage rolls, you don't add your Dexterity modifier. However, any other effects that would increase the multiplier to your Strength bonus on damage rolls (such as the two-handed fighter archetype's overhand chop) do not affect your Dexterity bonus on damage rolls.


Depressing.... thank you.

Scarab Sages

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Ammon Knight of Ragathiel wrote:
Depressing.... thank you.

I know.

It still doesn't hurt that much, because most of your damage is coming from sneak attack anyway. It does hurt if you wanted to take two-weapon rend, because it becomes a completely wasted feat tax. Even still, it's only going to be 2-8 points of damage per round.


Ammon Knight of Ragathiel wrote:

Okay so i know there are other threads on this, but the two i've seen are a bit dated, there have been changes and what not.

Does double slice work if you have dexterity to Damage? my usage is unchained rogue, dual wielding emei piercer's both light weapons.

there seem to be alot of mixed opinions on this.

Keep in mind that this restriction applies only to the Rogue's Finesse feature. It wouldn't apply if you got your weapons enhanced with the Agile property.


So if i agiled my off hand weapon it would work with double slice?

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Ammon Knight of Ragathiel wrote:

So if i agiled my off hand weapon it would work with double slice?

I'm not sure what Darksol is talking about, but I don't think so.

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.

He's basically mentioning that that specific FAQ has to do with the Unchained Rogue's class feature, and not Dex to damage in general. However I'm pretty sure I've seen it stated by the Devs that that is how it's supposed to work for all dex to damage, whether it's the Agile weapon ability, the Slashing Grace feat or Finesse Training for the rogue.


Deighton Thrane wrote:
He's basically mentioning that that specific FAQ has to do with the Unchained Rogue's class feature, and not Dex to damage in general. However I'm pretty sure I've seen it stated by the Devs that that is how it's supposed to work for all dex to damage, whether it's the Agile weapon ability, the Slashing Grace feat or Finesse Training for the rogue.

I'd like a citation for that.

I made a thread about this very thing in the past. Feel free to look it over and see if there's any issue with the matter.

Though, if Paizo is true on their track record, they would say this applies to all forms of Dexterity to Damage. But if we stick to the precedent of "FAQ only affects subjects involved," then they would have to release a separate FAQ regarding all forms of adding Dexterity to damage and how it relates to Strength. (Or some similar form of clarification.)

Shadow Lodge

That seems like a stretch.

Looking at the actual question and answer for the FAQ, its pretty clear its talking about anything that replaces Str for Dex, not just the Rogue ability it's labelled under.


DM Beckett wrote:

That seems like a stretch.

Looking at the actual question and answer for the FAQ, its pretty clear its talking about anything that replaces Str for Dex, not just the Rogue ability it's labelled under.

Then why bother referencing the Unchained Rogue's ability in the question (when it's not used as an example) if it's supposed to be a general ruling for all Dexterity to Damage options?

All I'm saying is that by RAW, Agile is not treated the same as the Rogue class feature, and therefore would not be subject to its limitations, regardless of the source for the limitation.

Unless there is a FAQ that specifically references Dexterity replacing Strength in general, this FAQ should not be applicable to the Agile property.

Shadow Lodge

In what way is Finesse Training and the Agile Property different?

The most likely reason that they didn't specifically call out Agile, and probably never will, is because it's not in a core Open Content book.

To my understanding, and I could be wrong, the latest errata removed all Open Content Dex to Damage options from play except for the Swashbuckler and the Unchained Rogue. With the Unchained Rogue being the newest, it seems the best place to put a FAQ on it, aside from under Ability Scores in the CRB. The only issue with that would be that's probably not the place most people would look for it. They would probably go for the Rogue Class Ability.

There is also the fact that Agile already tells you what happens when you wield the weapon in two hands (nothing) or in your off hand (1/2 Dex, just like with Str).

Furthermore, we can look at similar, but not directly related FAQs for a clearer answer. For instance:

FAQ wrote:

Alternate Ability Score-Based Checks: If I change the key ability score of a skill (or other check), for example, if I change Knowledge from Intelligence to Charisma, is it no-longer an Intelligence-based check? Is it now a Charisma-based check?

Generally yes—at the time of rolling a check, if you substitute the ability score, the check is now based on the new ability score. In the example, at the time of rolling, Knowledge would now be a Charisma-based skill and not an Intelligence-based skill for you, which would affect things like feats, spells, or items that grant bonuses on checks based on their key ability score (like circlet of persuasion). However, if you are adding a second ability modifier to a check, this is not the case. For instance, when adding both Wisdom and Dexterity on initiative checks, initiative is still a Dexterity check, not a Wisdom check. Also, this changes the check only at the time of rolling, so this does not change static class features or options made during character building such as your class’s class skills. Classes that receive “all Intelligence-based skills” as class skills, for instance, are the victim of sloppy writing, and furthermore sometimes effects might muddy the water by only changing the ability dependency sometimes and not others, which is why you check the new dependency only for a specific given roll.


DM Beckett wrote:

In what way is Finesse Training and the Agile Property different?

The most likely reason that they didn't specifically call out Agile, and probably never will, is because it's not in a core Open Content book.

To my understanding, and I could be wrong, the latest errata removed all Open Content Dex to Damage options from play except for the Swashbuckler and the Unchained Rogue. With the Unchained Rogue being the newest, it seems the best place to put a FAQ on it, aside from under Ability Scores in the CRB. The only issue with that would be that's probably not the place most people would look for it. They would probably go for the Rogue Class Ability.

There is also the fact that Agile already tells you what happens when you wield the weapon in two hands (nothing) or in your off hand (1/2 Dex, just like with Str).

You already demonstrated how the Agile property and Finesse Training is different. If you Agile an Elven Curved Blade you wouldn't get 1.5x Dexterity. If you Finesse Trained it, you would get 1.5x Dexterity.

There is also the factor that one is a +1 property (which can be placed on an AoMF), and the other is a class feature (which can't be placed on an AoMF).

Here's the full text:

Agile wrote:

This enhancement can only be placed on a melee weapon which is usable with the Weapon Finesse feat.

Agile weapons are unusually well balanced and responsive. A wielder with the Weapon Finesse feat can choose to apply her Dexterity modifier to damage rolls with the weapon in place of her Strength modifier. This modifier to damage is not increased for two-handed weapons, but is still reduced for off-hand weapons.

When I made the question beforehand regarding this, a lot of people said that because the bolded part in relation to the context of the sentence simply reminds the player of the general rule of only getting 0.5x modifier for Off-Hand (because you're using Dexterity in place of Strength), Double Slice would still provide an increase because it supersedes the general rule of being able to add only 0.5x your modifier.

**EDIT**

If you read the last part of that FAQ closely, it specifically refers to type altering to calculate the overall bonus. It's still otherwise treated as a skill of the original type for other intents and purposes.

With that said, if we did follow that, you're still looking at Double Slice providing 1x Strength modifier on Off-Hand instead of 0.5x, and Agile essentially changing the source of the modifier being used, since it doesn't say that the half-modifier for off-hands is an absolute application and cannot be overwritten.

Shadow Lodge

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
You already demonstrated how the Agile property and Finesse Training is different. If you Agile an Elven Curved Blade you wouldn't get 1.5x Dexterity. If you Finesse Trained it, you would get 1.5x Dexterity.

How do you figure?

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
There is also the factor that one is a +1 property (which can be placed on an AoMF), and the other is a class feature (which can't be placed on an AoMF).

Yes, obviously a Class Ability and a Magic Item Property do have some differences. I thought it went without saying and we where talking about how the two functioned differently in the practical sense.

I was trying to clarify what exactly you meant by:

You wrote:
All I'm saying is that by RAW, Agile is not treated the same as the Rogue class feature, and therefore would not be subject to its limitations, regardless of the source for the limitation.
Agile wrote:

This enhancement can only be placed on a melee weapon which is usable with the Weapon Finesse feat.

Agile weapons are unusually well balanced and responsive. A wielder with the Weapon Finesse feat can choose to apply her Dexterity modifier to damage rolls with the weapon in place of her Strength modifier. This modifier to damage is not increased for two-handed weapons, but is still reduced for off-hand weapons.

I'm not sure why you quoted this, it seems exactly as I said.

And here is the full text from Finesse Training.

SRD wrote:

Finesse Training (Ex)

At 1st level, a rogue gains Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat. In addition, starting at 3rd level, she can select any one type of weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse (such as rapiers or daggers). Once this choice is made, it cannot be changed. Whenever she makes a successful melee attack with the selected weapon, she adds her Dexterity modifier instead of her Strength modifier to the damage roll. If any effect would prevent the rogue from adding her Strength modifier to the damage roll, she does not add her Dexterity modifier. The rogue can select a second weapon at 11th level and a third at 19th level.

It doesn't say one way or the other if it works exactly like Agile, (which is a 3.5 ability I believe).

Can you cite where it says Agile grants x1.5 Dex? I'm pretty sure it doesn't for the exact same reason Finesse Training doesn't. If I recall, that ruling was part of the Dragon Style debate.

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
When I made the question beforehand regarding this, a lot of people said that because the bolded part in relation to the context of the sentence simply reminds the player of the general rule of only getting 0.5x modifier for Off-Hand (because you're using Dexterity in place of Strength), Double Slice would still provide an increase because it supersedes the general rule of being able to add only 0.5x your modifier.

From what I read, it seemed to be a few individuals restating the same arguments on both sides without any actual definitive answer. I'm not saying min is the official answer either, as much as, by RAW and by looing at other similar cases of RAW, there seems to be a much stronger case for Dex instead of Str to Damage not acting in the same fashion as Str.

Like I pointed out in the Skills FAQ in regards to swapping what Ability Modifier is used, it does specify that if you change one called out Ability Score and replace it, anything that only applies to the original Ability Score would NOT apply to the new check.

So for instance, if you have a Strength Surge Ability and try to apply it to a Swim Check, but you also have an ability that lets you use your Con Modifier for Swim checks instead of Str, Strength Surge can not apply to the now Con based Check.

That is you can either roll:
1d20 + Str Mod + Strength Surge
or
1d20 + Con Mod

It's not the exact same thing, but it's very close, especially if you consider that a melee attack is normally a Str Based Check.

PRD wrote:

Double Slice (Combat)

Your off-hand weapon while dual-wielding strikes with greater power.
Prerequisite: Dex 15, Two-Weapon Fighting.
Benefit: Add your Strength bonus to damage rolls made with your off-hand weapon.
Normal: You normally add only half of your Strength modifier to damage rolls made with a weapon wielded in your off-hand.

Notice it doesn't say something like "Add you full Ability score used for Damage rolls made with your off-handed weapon"? but instead specifies "Add you Str Bonus".

Now, I could see you trying to argue, by RAW, that a Dex to Damage dual wielder could add both their 1/2 Dex and full Str bonus to their off handed weapon, because technically that's what the Feat says. Probably not going to benefit most dual wielders too much, and might penalize more than it helps, but by RAW, that is as written, it does say add Str to off-handed weapons, (regardless of what you normally use).

Liberty's Edge

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Deighton Thrane wrote:
He's basically mentioning that that specific FAQ has to do with the Unchained Rogue's class feature, and not Dex to damage in general. However I'm pretty sure I've seen it stated by the Devs that that is how it's supposed to work for all dex to damage, whether it's the Agile weapon ability, the Slashing Grace feat or Finesse Training for the rogue.

I'd like a citation for that.

I made a thread about this very thing in the past. Feel free to look it over and see if there's any issue with the matter.

Though, if Paizo is true on their track record, they would say this applies to all forms of Dexterity to Damage. But if we stick to the precedent of "FAQ only affects subjects involved," then they would have to release a separate FAQ regarding all forms of adding Dexterity to damage and how it relates to Strength. (Or some similar form of clarification.)

So, I spent a bit of time looking for the comment, but best I could come up with was this comment from Mark Seifter where he mentions that he thinks double slice only works with Strength. But that he might houserule it to work, but maybe not, because being able to focus on all dex already has it own benefits. Definitely not a concise statement, or conclusive of how Dex to damage interacts with other rules.

I could have sworn SKR made a comment at the end of his tenure, basically saying that Dex to damage works like FAQ states, but haven't come up with anything yet.


Deighton Thrane wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Deighton Thrane wrote:
He's basically mentioning that that specific FAQ has to do with the Unchained Rogue's class feature, and not Dex to damage in general. However I'm pretty sure I've seen it stated by the Devs that that is how it's supposed to work for all dex to damage, whether it's the Agile weapon ability, the Slashing Grace feat or Finesse Training for the rogue.

I'd like a citation for that.

I made a thread about this very thing in the past. Feel free to look it over and see if there's any issue with the matter.

Though, if Paizo is true on their track record, they would say this applies to all forms of Dexterity to Damage. But if we stick to the precedent of "FAQ only affects subjects involved," then they would have to release a separate FAQ regarding all forms of adding Dexterity to damage and how it relates to Strength. (Or some similar form of clarification.)

So, I spent a bit of time looking for the comment, but best I could come up with was this comment from Mark Seifter where he mentions that he thinks double slice only works with Strength. But that he might houserule it to work, but maybe not, because being able to focus on all dex already has it own benefits. Definitely not a concise statement, or conclusive of how Dex to damage interacts with other rules.

I could have sworn SKR made a comment at the end of his tenure, basically saying that Dex to damage works like FAQ states, but haven't come up with anything yet.

Well, Mark is a designer. Although he didn't make the feat himself, he does err on the side of "Strength only" in terms of an as-is ruling (and is enforced when he refers to the Dexterity option as a houserule), so I suppose that does put a pretty big nail in the coffin, unfortunately. It's technically not official, but since it's not much different than Jason Nelson stepping forward about the Bodyguard feat, it's about as currently official as it can get.

@ DM Beckett: Agile doesn't allow 1.5x Dexterity on any weapon, full stop. The FAQ that was cited for Finesse Training does allow 1.5x Dexterity, assuming the weapon can be finessed, such as with an Elven Curved Blade. In fact, that was the key focus of the FAQ, since a lot of people were wanting 1.5x Dexterity when using the Elven Curved Blade, and others were saying that it wasn't possible because it was a 1 for 1 exchange, not a 1.5 for 1.5 exchange.

The FAQ expunges that the Finesse Training feature provides a 1.5x modifier on Two-Handed Weapons and a 0.5x modifier on Off-Hand Weapons, whereas people were arguing you couldn't possibly get 1.5x modifier, because the exchange was a 1 for 1 basis. Essentially, People didn't think to include the "Off-Hand" benefits, and the Devs basically said "You include it" when they made this FAQ.

It then says that any effect which increases your modifier multiplier (Strength, Dexterity, or otherwise) does not apply to the Finesse Training feature. Remember that the FAQ refers specifically to the feature, not to Dexterity to Damage in general (though if it was edited properly, it certainly can).

With that said, there are two key things to note here. The first is to acknowledge that Agile does behave differently (albeit slightly) from Finesse Training; if I could get 1.5x Dexterity to Two-Handed Weapons with Agile, then they would be functionally the same (such as Haste and Boots of Speed). The FAQ also wouldn't be listed to single out the class feature, it'd include the Slashing/Fencing Grace feats too, as well as the effects of, say, Gunslingers getting Dexterity to Damage. And when it includes enough items, it becomes generalized, especially when you want them all to follow the same limitations. I don't see any such generalization present in the FAQ, so...

The second is to acknowledge that they aren't the same source, and therefore without any special clauses stating otherwise, won't share the same restrictions. Look at Improved Critical and Keen. Look at Haste and the Speed property. Look at Masterwork Weapons and Magic Weapon. These are all effects that come from different sources, and have specific clauses stating that they do not stack with each other (or similar effects). I don't see that sort of effect with this, Slashing/Fencing Grace, Gunslinger features, et. al. Although stacking doesn't have much relevance, it is important to note that because they are separate, they behave separately, and are affected differently from certain things, and being affected by FAQs is certainly one of them.

The point here is that the FAQ should have zero grounds for application to the Agile property, and the other FAQ you mentioned doesn't do anything to debunk my case. It actually supports my case further.

Of course, I will be forced to concede, as there is a Dev Statement that states that using full Dexterity with Double Slice is a houserule.

The Concordance

Concerning the Unchained FAQ, what about primary natural attacks that use 1.5x STR? What about secondary natural attacks? RAI seems somewhat clear, but RAW as per the FAQ seems to dictate that both cases would get 1xDEX.

Grand Lodge

DM Beckett wrote:
Where are you getting the notion that Finesse Training says you can get x1.5 Dex? I have a hard time following your logic or post, because it seems you started with a conclusion (as fact) and are trying to work backwards to prove it with circular logic. Am I missing something? What FAQ are you referring to?

Unchained Rogue Finesse Training: When I'm replacing Strength for Dexterity, what happens with a one-handed weapon? What about an off-hand weapon?

With a two-handed weapon, you add 1-1/2 times your Dexterity bonus on damage rolls, and with an off-hand weapon, you add half your Dexterity bonus on damage rolls. As per the ability's text, if an effect would prevent you from adding your Strength modifier on damage rolls, you don't add your Dexterity modifier. However, any other effects that would increase the multiplier to your Strength bonus on damage rolls (such as the two-handed fighter archetype's overhand chop) do not affect your Dexterity bonus on damage rolls.


okay so people keep citing the FAQ, which is good and everything but i've been noticing nothing in the FAQ says for positive effects only for negative effects, hence the word prevent being used. so far the rules seem to either be confused or misunderstood with this, knowing how the creators and their apparent dislike of dex to damage it probably is a no with it working and all.

But as i'm seeing it currently this ruling with how it's worded doesn't say about positive effects only negative. and the first part basically says treat it as normal.

As of know there is no need to restate the FAQ as it's been beaten to death like a dead horse by now. if you have actual insight or something original to state fel free and please do.


Imbicatus wrote:
Ammon Knight of Ragathiel wrote:
Depressing.... thank you.

I know.

It still doesn't hurt that much, because most of your damage is coming from sneak attack anyway. It does hurt if you wanted to take two-weapon rend, because it becomes a completely wasted feat tax. Even still, it's only going to be 2-8 points of damage per round.

Playing an Unchained Rogue right now, and honestly it's a blessing in disguise. The majority of my damage comes from sneak attack, not having to "waste" feat slots on those TWF feats allows me to pick up Improved Two Weapon Feint or other feats to proc sneak attack more often. Now, when I can't sneak attack my damage is pitiful, and those feats (if they worked) would help. But double slice would only be +3 damage on my off-hand hits. It would be nice, but it's not super amazing.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Ammon Knight of Ragathiel wrote:

okay so people keep citing the FAQ, which is good and everything but i've been noticing nothing in the FAQ says for positive effects only for negative effects, hence the word prevent being used. so far the rules seem to either be confused or misunderstood with this, knowing how the creators and their apparent dislike of dex to damage it probably is a no with it working and all.

But as i'm seeing it currently this ruling with how it's worded doesn't say about positive effects only negative. and the first part basically says treat it as normal.

As of know there is no need to restate the FAQ as it's been beaten to death like a dead horse by now. if you have actual insight or something original to state fel free and please do.

Re-read it. It specifically talks about positive effects.

"However, any other effects that would increase the multiplier to your Strength bonus on damage rolls (such as the two-handed fighter archetype's overhand chop) do not affect your Dexterity bonus on damage rolls."


oohhh , wow completely missed that...once again i repeat thats depressing and stupid


Ammon Knight of Ragathiel wrote:
oohhh , wow completely missed that...once again i repeat thats depressing and stupid

Why? Honestly as a rogue you have better things to spend a feat on than one that might net you a few extra points of damage on your off-hand attack. Honestly, working towards Dodge -> Mobility -> Spring Attack -> Circling Mongoose + Canny Tumble or Two Weapon Feint and Improved Two Weapon Feint as well as Gang Up are probably better uses of the feat slot.

Scarab Sages

Well, it depends on if Two-Weapon Rend is just bonus damage or a separate attack. If it's a separate attack, then sneak attack should be added to TWR damage as well.

I've always played Two-Weapon Rend as simply bonus damage, but if you can add Sneak Attack to it as well, then you might want to take it even though Double Slice is a complete waste.


An extra attack is nice, but I think at that point I'd just start building some crazy natural attack build so that I can have 6 attacks + haste and still not have to worry about taking worthless feats.

I've always understood it as simply additional damage.

Besides which, there is no attack roll. In general Sneak Attack and Precision Damage aren't allowed on anything that doesn't have an attack roll to hit.


Imbicatus wrote:

Well, it depends on if Two-Weapon Rend is just bonus damage or a separate attack. If it's a separate attack, then sneak attack should be added to TWR damage as well.

I've always played Two-Weapon Rend as simply bonus damage, but if you can add Sneak Attack to it as well, then you might want to take it even though Double Slice is a complete waste.

If it was a separate attack, it'd need its own attack roll, since there is no language stating that it automatically hits if X conditions are met. So no, it's not an extra attack.

@ Claxon: I can see your point, since that is at most 20+ points of damage. But I don't think the character can really afford to spend many more feats outside of TWF and your other cookie cutter feats to accomplish that unless they have bonus feats to compensate for that.

In other words, I can see a Slayer doing that, but I don't think a Rogue could pull that off really effectively.


I'm a little confused Darksol by your bolding of 20 points of damage.

As I mentioned earlier, I currently have a level 8 rogue with a dex modifier of +6, the river rat trait, and two +1 daggers. I have 4 attacks with TWF, ITWF. 5 if I get haste.

Main hand deals 1d4 +8, while off-hand deals 1d4+5. If double slice gave full damage, it would give me only a total of the 6 damage.

Even as you gain levels and dex increases, lets say you get up to a +10 dex modifier. You only have 3 off-hand attacks (which you don't even get till 15th level). That means if double slice worked it could get you 15 damage. Nice, but at 15th level not really a huge deal. At 15th level your sneak attack is 8d6, 28 avg damage. So rather than spend a feat on double slice it's much better to set up a more secure method for sneak attack. If you add in Two Weapon Rend, the damage goes from 15 to about 30. But that extra 15 damage is only once per round (and that's assuming you convert the 1.5 strength damage to 1.5 dex damage).

When you compare to two weapon feint and improved twf that can help you set up sneak attack on every attack in a round (which adds 28 damage per successful sneak attack) I'm of the opinion it's just better to focus on getting sneak attack.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Clarification- Double slice and Dexterity to damage All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.