Fame! I'm earning prestige forever! (or not)


Pathfinder Society

Sovereign Court 5/5 RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

There's an off topic talk about earning fame in the Eldritch Archer thread, so I thought I'd move it over to it's own thread.

I've found with the older scenarios the second prestige point varies wildly from scenario to scenario Some are automatic (completing the primary condition completes the secondary) Some are pretty much required. (defeating the final enemy who can't escape you) Some are bloody near impossible (looks at Among the dead suspiciously)

Of course, the little of season 7 I touch seems to fall into the later catagory. When I ran Six Seconds to Midnight, the puzzle ruined the scenario more that the flying buggers of death. I gave them the secondary PP because they technically did complete the objective*

*:
I mean yeah they did stop the bad guys within the time frame, but throwing the fireball to do it did the damage they were trying to do. OTOH, 3 character deaths from the beam monsters, mixed with the puzzle meaning that they got a total of 300 GP on high tier, and left a sour taste in everyone's mouth. I've heard 7-4 is better, but after seeing Bronze House descend into a cluster frak twice now, and Six Seconds to firey Death, I'm steering well away from 7-X for now.

Grand Lodge 5/5

I'm not sure if you meant to have a question or something there, but I'm guessing this is what you are looking for.

I think faction missions determining second prestige led to the most failures to get both PP.

Secondary Success condition document for older scenarios is somewhere in the middle, highly dependent on the scenario.

More recent scenarios the least common for failing to earn a second prestige point.

This is just my feel of the situation I've never taken any data to back it up.

1/5

Spoiler:
We just did a run of Bronze House last night and barely fought anyone. I can see where if you approach it like murderhobos it could go horribly wrong but there are other ways.

As a matter of fact I think both tables of it that ran last night here finished up early and got the second prestige with minimal fighting.

More directly on the subject of prestige and secondary success conditions the only scenario I've ever ran or played where I thought the second prestige was difficult to award was 5-04 The Stolen Heir which asks the players to act in a way that many will find distasteful and many of their PC's will need atonements for just to get that second prestige.

Grand Lodge 2/5

Jessex wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

More directly on the subject of prestige and secondary success conditions the only scenario I've ever ran or played where I thought the second prestige was difficult to award was 5-04 The Stolen Heir which asks the players to act in a way that many will find distasteful and many of their PC's will need atonements for just to get that second prestige.

Spoiler:
That scenario is just insulting. Have the daughter kidnapped and married off somewhere or get your second prestige. Seriously, someone should be locked in the stocks overnight with a basket of rotten tomatoes nearby for that one.
4/5

Joe Ducey wrote:

I'm not sure if you meant to have a question or something there, but I'm guessing this is what you are looking for.

I think faction missions determining second prestige led to the most failures to get both PP.

Secondary Success condition document for older scenarios is somewhere in the middle, highly dependent on the scenario.

More recent scenarios the least common for failing to earn a second prestige point.

This is just my feel of the situation I've never taken any data to back it up.

I think that depends heavily on the scenario. My interpretation:

  • Faction missions had the benefit of the player knowing exactly what they needed to do - it was always very clear, which was kind of a detriment to the story at times due to "omniscient faction leader syndrome." If I saw failure in these, it was because I literally couldn't manage the task provided for some reason.
  • Older scenarios that fell under the Secondary Success Condition doc were extremely hit or miss. Many times, the secondary condition was not intuitive to the party because the scenario wasn't written for it. Other times, it was literally a no-brainer.
  • Recent scenarios are usually intuitive, but there are some that come to mind that very specifically weren't intuitive.

Example for recent scenario with unintuitive SSC:
Bronze House Reprisal requires a certain specific piece of evidence be found for the SSC, but there are many ways of approaching the area that won't lead you to that piece of evidence. When I played, for example, we broke in through the vault, found the giant statue + other things, and decided that this was more than enough evidence to prove the crime. We covered up our escape and came back with guards to seize the evidence, but failed to recover the important piece of evidence as a result. It was in no way evident that we needed to do any more than we did based on the way we approached the scenario and this was with a very good GM running the show.

1/5

claudekennilol wrote:
Jessex wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

More directly on the subject of prestige and secondary success conditions the only scenario I've ever ran or played where I thought the second prestige was difficult to award was 5-04 The Stolen Heir which asks the players to act in a way that many will find distasteful and many of their PC's will need atonements for just to get that second prestige.

** spoiler omitted **

I ran it recently and felt just awful when the party did the right thing and I had to give them all only 1 PP. I apologized and explained that it wasn't my choice but still it sucked. I wouldn't have chosen to run it if I had known it had a gotcha like that in it.

Dark Archive 4/5 5/55/5 ****

Matthew Morris wrote:
I'm steering well away from 7-X for now.

I'd advise against the same judging of a season on 1-2 scenarios because of difficulty that happened last year. There were some great season 6 scenarios that a lot of people never played because they didn't like a couple of the early ones. By the same token, 7-05 is one of the most flavorful and combat optional scenarios that has been published period, but you would choose to avoid it based on 2 other scenarios.

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/5 ***

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
claudekennilol wrote:
Jessex wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

More directly on the subject of prestige and secondary success conditions the only scenario I've ever ran or played where I thought the second prestige was difficult to award was 5-04 The Stolen Heir which asks the players to act in a way that many will find distasteful and many of their PC's will need atonements for just to get that second prestige.

That scenario is just insulting. Have the daughter kidnapped and married off somewhere or get your second prestige. Seriously, someone should be locked in the stocks overnight with a basket of rotten tomatoes nearby for that one.

See, that's one of my favorite SSCs. Good should not always be easy to do, and your choice to play a good character should put you in sticky situations occasionally. While PFS is not the moral dilemma campaign, the occasional moral dilemma is important.

After all, your Good character decided to sign up with an organization that is Neutral with Good leanings. You certainly can try to be a shining example in the Society and try to change it to Good (aka Silver Crusade), but helping out the daughter does you nothing but solve the basic problem you've been given, which is what the Society cares about.

That scenario is one of my favorite PFS scenarios to date, and while I understand that they are a spice to be used lightly in this campaign, I always cheer when I see one like this done well.

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden

It's possible to get the SSC in Stolen Heir without doing anything nasty, but you do have to beat a very high Diplomacy DC with the right NPC. You can bring down the DC by blackmailing him but even so it's hard. Just not impossible.

Silver Crusade 3/5 *** Venture-Captain, North Carolina—Asheville

claudekennilol wrote:
** spoiler omitted **

Philip Carroll, Asheville Pathfinder Lodge, point of information: What?

The Stolen Heir:
The scenario's secondary success condition is securing military aid for the Society. Accepting Koriana's deal is one way to do that, as is convincing Consul Bryton to send Eagle Knights. That requires a Diplomacy check instead of happening automatically, but calling that grounds for an atonement is pretty extreme. Heck, if you end up fighting Koriana, Thalia suggests you go talk to Bryton!

Sorry if the tone in that spoiler is snippy, but I really like Stolen Heir and cannot abide its unjust besmirchment.

Edit: The Diplomacy DC isn't that high under the right conditions. A typical level 1 bard can make it by taking 10, after negotiations.

Dark Archive 3/5 **

Thing is, while SSCs are much harder than old faction missions, they are things the party can (usually) collectively agree upon as being something to strive for. And that's a lot better than the status quo before.

Faction missions were once pseudo-clandestine skill checks, often with trained only skills and/or high DCs, that lead to a lot of wink-wink-nudge-nudge-scratch my back-I scratch yours exchanges. These checks could be hard, but they weren't impossible. But the spirit of hidden agendas is lost when the missions are an open secret. Worse, they bog down play when folks are fixated on them over the actual objective of the scenario. Instead having a "going above and beyond" objective that the part can work collectively towards, openly, makes more sense and keeps the players invested in the actual mission.

Secondary objectives are often written with the Society's aims and interests in mind. Not the PC's and not their faction's. This is why in scenarios with faction plot content, you often see that members of that faction can instead earn their second prestige via the Faction goal route. The Society is Neutral, not Good. Their interests are sometimes served by less savory things.

Really, the expectation you'll get all your prestige in your career is, and always has been by design, unfounded and false. We've just had systems for years that people gamed and worked around to make sure they always got that second point. What we're seeing now are conditions for getting prestige be shored up to reflect the expected curve (~1.5 prestige per 4 hour scenario) being met with folks who don't run as written to make sure the SSC is achieved. Or worse, folks who predicate their build on max prestige.

tl;dr The system is starting to work as intended, which is that you won't get every Prestige Point possible. And it will only work if people run as written.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

Bronze House Reprisal:
We never had a single fight, and we loved it.

4/5

Nefreet wrote:
** spoiler omitted **

Most of the scenario was really good. I took exception with the SSC.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

We had every fight but it was great! So many saves...

1/5 5/5

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
bdk86 wrote:


tl;dr The system is starting to work as intended, which is that you won't get every Prestige Point possible. And it will only work if people run as written.

Which apparently led to a *bunch of questioning* at GenCon during one of the specials because not enough of the tables did the secondary success condition.

So it does happen even during specials.

Actually, come to think of it, if there's a scenario that some of the players have GM'd before, and they deliberately *tank* the secondary mission objective or the GM de-emphasizes it so the table doesn't know it's an option and therefore is 'invisible' to the players, should the players who haven't played it before be punished for that?

Sky Key Solution:
"Nah, on second thought, let's not arm the slaves, that sets a bad precedent. Kill their leaders so they'll be good slaves in the future."? I haven't read it, but I played it at GenCon and was mystified by the reasoning for why someone *wouldn't* get the slaves organizd.

4/5

Wei Ji the Learner wrote:
bdk86 wrote:


tl;dr The system is starting to work as intended, which is that you won't get every Prestige Point possible. And it will only work if people run as written.

Which apparently led to a *bunch of questioning* at GenCon during one of the specials because not enough of the tables did the secondary success condition.

So it does happen even during specials.

Actually, come to think of it, if there's a scenario that some of the players have GM'd before, and they deliberately *tank* the secondary mission objective or the GM de-emphasizes it so the table doesn't know it's an option and therefore is 'invisible' to the players, should the players who haven't played it before be punished for that?

** spoiler omitted **

Does the player tank it because they've run it, or because it's in-character for them to do so?

1/5 5/5

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Serisan wrote:


Does the player tank it because they've run it, or because it's in-character for them to do so?

"Expect Table Variation"?

Honestly, I couldn't tell you what leads to the mindset that causes that behavior.

I have seen folks who have deliberately ('on accident') make things difficult or impossible to attain (in retrospect, after play is done). And then argue the point with the GM for an hour.

I've also been part of a team that missed the second point during a scenario because even with everyone in the party helping and having the highest skill roll 'point' at the table, a finesse item roll bombed. THAT was an accident, and we as a table sort of shrugged and said 'Meh, things happen'...

Grand Lodge 2/5

Ascalaphus wrote:
It's possible to get the SSC in Stolen Heir without doing anything nasty, but you do have to beat a very high Diplomacy DC with the right NPC. You can bring down the DC by blackmailing him but even so it's hard. Just not impossible.

That's another problem I've got with the scenario. My GM ran it wrong and we weren't even given that option.

5/5 5/55/55/5

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Some of them are just random, weird, arbitrary , or easily lost in the background. If you don't make a point of nudging the prestige macguffins forward to be interacted with your party will spend an extra hour per adventure poking at everything trying to find it.

Grand Lodge 4/5 **** Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento

claudekennilol wrote:
Ascalaphus wrote:
It's possible to get the SSC in Stolen Heir without doing anything nasty, but you do have to beat a very high Diplomacy DC with the right NPC. You can bring down the DC by blackmailing him but even so it's hard. Just not impossible.
That's another problem I've got with the scenario. My GM ran it wrong and we weren't even given that option.

In my case, I feel that is a problem with the GM, not the scenario. We failed the SSC because we didn't make the K:Local to know who that NPC was, and so were never told later. He was just some random guy we never saw again. (Which is apparently not how it is supposed to go.)

Shadow Lodge 4/5

I don't really get the fascination with fame. I've got some characters who always tanked their faction missions(HAHAHA time for Handle Animal!) but once you amass enough for raise dead the rest is just gravy.

Grand Lodge 5/5

Wei Ji the Learner wrote:

Which apparently led to a *bunch of questioning* at GenCon during one of the specials because not enough of the tables did the secondary success condition.

I'm not sure, but I've heard it said that it's pretty common for GenCon multi-table specials to not be able to reach the best reward tier. (Probably due to the vast number of tables vs time component). It's still pretty incredible to be a part of IMO.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

My issues with the bronze house is

Spoiler:
that you're presented with several options to go about it, they all seem legit, but only one actually works. The others will lead to immediate fights and failure. Also the tier scaling is terrible. The guards all have the same perception and sense motive checks regardless of tier. You just add in a couple more low-level mooks for high tier. So it's way easier for a high tier group than a low tier one.

Back on topic: I dislike the arbitrary success conditions. If the PCs are instructed to bring back artifacts in the briefing, but under the success condition it says they need to bring back at east 3 to count, then I will tell the players "bring back at least 3 artifacts." There is no way the players can read the author's mind to know how many is enough and if the VC wants a specific amount then I'd think they would say so. Pfs is played under time constraint. Hidden point systems encourage players to waste time trying to get extra points for fear they don't have enough to fulfil their secondary.

The Exchange 4/5 5/5

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Some of them are just random, weird, arbitrary , or easily lost in the background. If you don't make a point of nudging the prestige macguffins forward to be interacted with your party will spend an extra hour per adventure poking at everything trying to find it.

Finding the balance is the really hard part when there's no clear path towards it in the scenario writeup. I don't want to steer the players directly to a Secondary Fame Point but I don't want to make it so hard they have to make a huge intuitive leap to find it.

Made-up example:
If the secondary success condition happens to involve getting information from an NPC you bump into in a bar (and the scenario doesn't have specific interactions) it can be really hard to give players the opportunity without driving them right to the point.

Bad: "Oh, lets see. There is a group of three dwarves at a table in the corner and behind the bar is the half-orc Bennigan that Drendle sent you to meet."

Still Bad: "There is a half-orc bartender matching the description Dreng gave you and three dwarves sitting at a table in the corner, one of whom is Savrin Decauix." "Who is Savrin Decauix? No one has mentioned that name yet." "Maybe we should find out."

Better: Have the rowdy dwarves keep interrupting Bennigan and give the players opportunities to interact with all of them.

Silver Crusade 3/5 *** Venture-Captain, North Carolina—Asheville

FLite wrote:
claudekennilol wrote:
Ascalaphus wrote:
It's possible to get the SSC in Stolen Heir without doing anything nasty, but you do have to beat a very high Diplomacy DC with the right NPC. You can bring down the DC by blackmailing him but even so it's hard. Just not impossible.
That's another problem I've got with the scenario. My GM ran it wrong and we weren't even given that option.
In my case, I feel that is a problem with the GM, not the scenario. We failed the SSC because we didn't make the K:Local to know who that NPC was, and so were never told later. He was just some random guy we never saw again. (Which is apparently not how it is supposed to go.)

I concur. I try not to get mad at my radio just because someone decided to play KC and the Sunshine Band. Well, not that mad at the radio.

The Stolen Heir:
Assuming you didn't side with Koriana, did you find the notes in her shop? They mention Bryton's name and give you leverage with him. As a GM, even if the party missed them, I'd probably have Thalia mention how she cannot lend military aid without a governmental position, but then have her remember Bryton is in town.

Grand Lodge 2/5

Nimrandir wrote:
FLite wrote:
claudekennilol wrote:
Ascalaphus wrote:
It's possible to get the SSC in Stolen Heir without doing anything nasty, but you do have to beat a very high Diplomacy DC with the right NPC. You can bring down the DC by blackmailing him but even so it's hard. Just not impossible.
That's another problem I've got with the scenario. My GM ran it wrong and we weren't even given that option.
In my case, I feel that is a problem with the GM, not the scenario. We failed the SSC because we didn't make the K:Local to know who that NPC was, and so were never told later. He was just some random guy we never saw again. (Which is apparently not how it is supposed to go.)

I concur. I try not to get mad at my radio just because someone decided to play KC and the Sunshine Band. Well, not that mad at the radio.

** spoiler omitted **

Spoiler:
No, after we confronted Koriana and decided not to side with her the scenario promptly ended and we got 1pp

My problems with this scenario are beyond just my GM, though. I've posted about this scenario more than enough previously and I don't really feel like going in depth about it again. If you want to find out my thoughts about it, a search through my post history should reveal all of my comments about it.

5/5 5/55/55/5

Kevin Willis wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Some of them are just random, weird, arbitrary , or easily lost in the background. If you don't make a point of nudging the prestige macguffins forward to be interacted with your party will spend an extra hour per adventure poking at everything trying to find it.

Finding the balance is the really hard part when there's no clear path towards it in the scenario writeup. I don't want to steer the players directly to a Secondary Fame Point but I don't want to make it so hard they have to make a huge intuitive leap to find it.

Made-up example:
If the secondary success condition happens to involve getting information from an NPC you bump into in a bar (and the scenario doesn't have specific interactions) it can be really hard to give players the opportunity without driving them right to the point.

Bad: "Oh, lets see. There is a group of three dwarves at a table in the corner and behind the bar is the half-orc Bennigan that Drendle sent you to meet."

Still Bad: "There is a half-orc bartender matching the description Dreng gave you and three dwarves sitting at a table in the corner, one of whom is Savrin Decauix." "Who is Savrin Decauix? No one has mentioned that name yet." "Maybe we should find out."

Better: Have the rowdy dwarves keep interrupting Bennigan and give the players opportunities to interact with all of them.

worse: For every adventure you go on now the party tries to interact with EVERY described NPC, and they keep asking about NPCs you didn't describe yet.

Sovereign Court 5/5 RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Bronze House, building on what gnoams said

Spoiler:
The trap option is what was set off by two party members. It had the dual problem of a) them being overwhelmed and b) slowing the game to a crawl. That there are some wonderful RP opportunities in the front eats up even more time, not helping. I understand there's some kind of 'social combat' at the end, tied to both prestige points. I'd not know, in two tables I've played or witnessed, no one has reached that part.

And DrParty as to season 7, my gaming $$ is limited. I have 0, 1, 2, parts of 3 and 4, and 5, and six. Both Bonekeeps, and the four star special. I've lots of scenarios I can run, and that doesn't include modules or APs (Running Carrion Hill on the 31st seems thematic). So I am going to be very careful when two scenarios a) run overlong, b) leave everyone at the table disgusted, not satisfied. Six Seconds from reading seems like a wonderful 'kids table' scenario with the fey, but it plays much different.

And this is coming from the guy who ran Black Waters for kids, and they enjoyed the spooky and the child saving.

Silver Crusade 5/5

Wei Ji the Learner wrote:
bdk86 wrote:


tl;dr The system is starting to work as intended, which is that you won't get every Prestige Point possible. And it will only work if people run as written.

Which apparently led to a *bunch of questioning* at GenCon during one of the specials because not enough of the tables did the secondary success condition.

So it does happen even during specials.

Actually, come to think of it, if there's a scenario that some of the players have GM'd before, and they deliberately *tank* the secondary mission objective or the GM de-emphasizes it so the table doesn't know it's an option and therefore is 'invisible' to the players, should the players who haven't played it before be punished for that?

** spoiler omitted **

At Gencon, no tables should have gotten both PP. Getting the second point requires getting an overall rating in the top tier (overwhelming success? The names elude me at the moment), or getting the next highest rating plus an extra condition. The run of Sky Key Solution at GenCon got the third highest rating, which meant that achieving both PP was not possible. Anybody that played 7-00 at Gencon should have gotten 1PP, which was announced shortly after the conclusion of the scenario.

Grand Lodge 2/5

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I got 2PP ^_^.

There are boons that still let you get your 2nd pp even if you didn't earn it.

Silver Crusade 5/5

claudekennilol wrote:

I got 2PP ^_^.

There are boons that still let you get your 2nd pp even if you didn't earn it.

You got me there.

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/55/5 **** Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria

I never had problems with fame, but arcane bond makes this quite relevant. The magus class alone has at least 3 archetypes the grant this particular class feature, and the option to get a free scaling weapon.

Silver Crusade 4/5

3 people marked this as a favorite.

I haven't finished reading this thread yet, but the first half dozen posts were enough to make me want to post this comment.

Spoilers. You're using them wrong.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

That's just board culture. Calling it out won't cause people to stop explosive runing, putting scenario names under spoils, etc. Well, some lurker might fix their schtick I guess.

Not Explosive Runes:
I am serious about board culture. There are these habits everywhere and especially in places with lots of gamers. Also, have a sepia snake sigil.

Dark Archive 3/5 **

So what I'm generally hearing is to some degree, it is a failure on the GM's part to prep properly/understand the scenario before them. I can definitely sympathize with that; we have too many people who run cold (Bronze House was run cold for my table) and it hurts a lot when SSCs are usually very plot dependent.

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden

Well, some SSCs are genuinely harder than others. And some scenarios are even worse to run cold than others (because running cold is always bad). And I expect there is also a correlation between these two.

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/55/5 **** Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria

bdk86 wrote:

So what I'm generally hearing is to some degree, it is a failure on the GM's part to prep properly/understand the scenario before them. I can definitely sympathize with that; we have too many people who run cold (Bronze House was run cold for my table) and it hurts a lot when SSCs are usually very plot dependent.

I found, that talking with your players at the conclusion of the scenario and telling them what is required to earn the primary and secondary prestige point, helps them understand why they did or didn't earn their reward.

Best case, it might make them more sensitive in that regard, and they might pay attention during briefings and ask sane questions.

Grand Lodge 4/5 **** Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento

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That said, scenarios could stand to do a better job calling out opportunities.

Out of anarchy has two sentences, one buried in a block of dialog. If the players miss the significance of that line, or the GM paraphrases too much, and the GM doesn't realize the importance of the second line, it is easy for the players to completely skip the interactions that would lead to the SSC.

Again, easier to do if the GM is running cold and hasn't read the scenario thread in the GM prep forum.

Grand Lodge 4/5 **** Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento

Sebastian Hirsch wrote:
bdk86 wrote:

So what I'm generally hearing is to some degree, it is a failure on the GM's part to prep properly/understand the scenario before them. I can definitely sympathize with that; we have too many people who run cold (Bronze House was run cold for my table) and it hurts a lot when SSCs are usually very plot dependent.

I found, that talking with your players at the conclusion of the scenario and telling them what is required to earn the primary and secondary prestige point, helps them understand why they did or didn't earn their reward.

Best case, it might make them more sensitive in that regard, and they might pay attention during briefings and ask sane questions.

My wife is found of ending briefing Q&As with "Is there anything else we should know about this situation? Any special hazards or important people we should watch out for?"

4/5

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I used a boon to get the second prestige for the whole party in 6 Seconds to Midnight.

How to make the GM swear:
I blew my Hero of the Fey boon from Pallid Plague to autosucceed the diplomacy check to influence the fey lady inside the clock tower. The look on the GMs face was priceless when I was like, "Guys, I've totally got this."

Sometimes it's worth checking your chronicle sheets for little tricks.

Grand Lodge 4/5 **** Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento

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When I ran six seconds, the oracle stuck his tongue out at the big bad, and got a diplomacy bonus in the process.

Some people have all the luck.:
He is a worshiper of Shyka, the same deity she serves, with a holy symbol tattoo on his tongue. It also saved the party having to make a DC 35 knowledge religion check, because I wasn't going to have the guy make a knowledge religion check to recognize the name of the god he worships and who he regularly mentions by that specific name.

Dark Archive 5/5 5/55/5 ** Venture-Captain, Germany—Rhein Main South

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In my experience the ssc is mostly done in my region, but i ran Horn of Aroden last weekend and the players said: "even if it costs us both Prestige i will do do this now -> has anyone a problem with that" I am glad they asked the table beforehand but they lost it because they did it anyway AND sabotaged it already.

Spoiler:
They tried to teach Lander manners by hitting him multiple times and their attempts to "diplomatise" him would rather fit to verbal abuse

5/5 5/55/55/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Alexander Lenz wrote:

In my experience the ssc is mostly done in my region, but i ran Horn of Aroden last weekend and the players said: "even if it costs us both Prestige i will do do this now -> has anyone a problem with that" I am glad they asked the table beforehand but they lost it because they did it anyway AND sabotaged it already.

** spoiler omitted **

The differences between a prince and a princess in that situation are absolutely amazing.

Dark Archive 3/5 **

Sebastian Hirsch wrote:
bdk86 wrote:

So what I'm generally hearing is to some degree, it is a failure on the GM's part to prep properly/understand the scenario before them. I can definitely sympathize with that; we have too many people who run cold (Bronze House was run cold for my table) and it hurts a lot when SSCs are usually very plot dependent.

I found, that talking with your players at the conclusion of the scenario and telling them what is required to earn the primary and secondary prestige point, helps them understand why they did or didn't earn their reward.

Best case, it might make them more sensitive in that regard, and they might pay attention during briefings and ask sane questions.

I'm a big fan of this as well. A lot of scenarios make more sense once the GM is able to be transparent about the mechanics and plot at play. I can't begin to count how many times I've run a scenarios months or years later and have that "Ohhhhhh" moment on things that made no sense when I was a player in it.

Briefings, well, YMMV. I really have no sympathy for folks (including myself), who don't engage with briefings or write down notes.

1/5 5/5

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
bdk86 wrote:


I'm a big fan of this as well. A lot of scenarios make more sense once the GM is able to be transparent about the mechanics and plot at play. I can't begin to count how many times I've run a scenarios months or years later and have that "Ohhhhhh" moment on things that made no sense when I was a player in it.

Briefings, well, YMMV. I really have no sympathy for folks (including myself), who don't engage with briefings or write down notes.

That works fine as long as the GM doesn't go...

"Welp, since you didn't get X, you don't get the SSC. Sucks, but that's how it's written, sorry."

And leave it at that.

On the briefing thing:

My notes look like some mad conspiracy theorist's work so I'm very glad when someone who is say, a court reporter or such in their precise note-taking is present at a table during briefings.

HOWEVER!

On at least two scenarios because of my very emphasized points that were *barely* hinted at during the briefings we ended up gaining the (harder to get)SSC.

Silver Crusade 1/5 Contributor

I emphasized the SSC for Out of Anarchy pretty heavily when I ran it.

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/55/5 **** Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria

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BigNorseWolf wrote:
Alexander Lenz wrote:

In my experience the ssc is mostly done in my region, but i ran Horn of Aroden last weekend and the players said: "even if it costs us both Prestige i will do do this now -> has anyone a problem with that" I am glad they asked the table beforehand but they lost it because they did it anyway AND sabotaged it already.

** spoiler omitted **

The differences between a prince and a princess in that situation are absolutely amazing.

Funny you should say that, the whole mess started when the boy called the Psychic (Tabitha Thrune, trait princess) something pedestrian, and she proceeded to slap him. Since that only dealt 1 damge the half orc clerc of DESNA showed her how to do it properly and slapped him properly. It all went downhill from there, but the players are mostly happy with their actions.

It was quite entertaining to watch from the other table, where I was running the excellent school of spirits.

1/5 5/5

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Sebastian Hirsch wrote:


Funny you should say that, the whole mess started when the boy called the Psychic (Tabitha Thrune, trait princess) something pedestrian, and she proceeded to slap him. Since that only dealt 1 damge the half orc clerc of DESNA showed her how to do it properly and slapped him properly. It all went downhill from there, but the players are mostly happy with their actions.

Which goes to the other side of the coin. Sometimes it might be more fun to (with entire party encouragement and consent) deliberately tank the other objective because it's much more entertaining.

HOWEVER: Expect Table variation.

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden

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Eh. We stuck to summoning fiendish dogs to keep him up at night, putting poison ivy in his socks and so forth, all the while praising his heroics. At the end he was very glad to leave the adventuring to others, and never figured out we were behind it.

Scarab Sages

Bronze House:
When I played this, we were playing with a 8th level UnMonk (me), a 8th level archer bard, a 5th level Rogue/something multiclass, and a 7th level Kyra. We tried to talk our way past the Barbarian and due to not having Aspis badges we failed all bluff checks, and it devloved to combat. We killed the Barbarian, after he almost killed my girlfriend's bard with a crit. We then healed up and was the one to investigate the trapped book, and our poor bard rolled a 1 on her fort save, and got turned to stone.

At this point, we decided to explore the dig, ran into the illusion guardian, and deciding that to stay and fight would be suicide, we found proof of thassilonain artifacts, but with no way to haul the wagons, we took a single vase as proof, and returned to town and got a stone to flesh for our bard, and returned to see if we could further explore the compound.

Of course at this point the wagons were gone and the site was abandoned.

We moved on to the Bronze House with out proof, but without the wagons we were unable to talk our way in as merchants and had to go in the front door using our writ. When we heard the destruction of evidence, we went into stop it, and did not have any combat in the house, but the guards were called and we were arrested.

Because we didn't actually kill anyone in town, we didn't lose 5 PP, but we got nothing for the scenario either.

It was basically impossible for our group to succeed in this scenario. There is only one path to success, which is horrible adventure design.

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