5 foot step straight up


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6 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

If a character has a fly speed can they take a five foot step up at a 45 degree or greater angle? Ascending at an angle of 45 degrees or more costs double movement, but it doesn't count as difficult terrain or darkness, which are what the rules for five foot steps reference. Is there an official ruling on this, maybe a FAQ or errata?

Sczarni

You can 5ft step straight up. The Fly check DC is 20. It requires a careful reading of the Fly section (formatted below from the PRD entry):

You generally need only make a Fly check when you are attempting a complex maneuver. Without making a check, a flying creature can:

  • Move greater than half speed and remain flying
  • Turn up to 45° by sacrificing 5 feet of movement
  • Rise at half speed at an angle of 45°
  • Descend at any angle at normal speed

Taking any action that violates these rules requires a Fly check:

  • Move less than half speed and remain flying (DC 10)
  • Hover (DC 15)
  • Turn greater than 45° by spending 5 feet of movement (DC 15)
  • Turn 180° by spending 10 feet of movement (DC 20)
  • Fly up at greater than 45° angle (DC 20)

Notice how the last option mentions nothing about moving at half speed, whereas the non-check option does.

If you want to ascend and not make a check, you're going to have to limit your angle to no greater than 45° and move at half speed, which means you can't 5ft step.

If you want to 5ft step straight up, you're going to have to make a DC 20 Fly check.


You could also take a 5-foot step up at 45 degrees with a DC 10 Fly check.

Sczarni

That check is made at the end of your turn to see if you can remain flying.

Getting there requires the DC 20 check.

If the actual section was formatted in this list style, it would be clearer, but as it is, the first section is typed out in paragraph form, and the second section is in list form.

Much confusion results from this layout. Many players I've encountered do not believe you can 5ft up no matter how good your Fly check is.


Why? A DC 20 check is only required if you turn 180° by spending 10 feet of movement or fly up at greater than 45° angle. Neither of these is the case for flying up at a 45° angle.

Sczarni

The OP is asking about making a 5ft step.

Rising at an angle of 45° can be done without making a check, but it's at half speed, so you can't 5ft step.

Making the DC 20 check does not have the limitation of moving at half speed, so you can 5ft step.


So you believe that "can rise at half speed at an angle of 45 degrees" means you are only allowed to move exactly half your speed, and at exactly 45 degrees? I don't see it that way. I believe that you can, for example, rise at a shallower angle than 45 degrees and not have to make a check, or move less than half your speed - in which case you are required to make a DC 10 Fly check.

I can't see how you're coming up with a DC 20 check for moving 5 feet up at 45 degrees. There's nothing in the rules you quote that suggest this. A DC 20 check is called for in two specific situations, neither of which apply.

Sczarni

A "shallower angle than 45 degrees" doesn't mechanically exist in Pathfinder with respect to making a 5ft step. Pathfinder wasn't designed with a hex grid system in mind.

If you're flying, and you wish to make a 5ft step, your options for going up are either 45° or straight up.

If you wish to only move 45°, you ascend at half speed, so you can't 5ft step.

If you wish to only move 45° and make a 5ft step, the only option available is the DC 20 check.

If you wish to go straight up, you definitely need the DC 20 check.

Sczarni

Callum wrote:
There's nothing in the rules you quote that suggest this.

It's a process of elimination. None of the non-check options allow for a 5ft step up. Of the check options, only one allows for a 5ft step up.


I believe the "half speed" note is supposed to represent your horizontal movement. For every square you move over, you're also moving one square up. Hence the 45 degree angle. So if your Fly speed is 60' and you wish to ascend at a 45 degree angle, you would move 30' on the game grid (6 squares). You would then note separately that your character is an additional 30' up in the air. It's a little clunky, and limiting at times, but the game wasn't designed with three dimensions of movement in mind. Making more complex maneuvers than a 45 degree ascent/decent, going straight up or down, moving horizontally, or simply not moving at all requires a much more involved rules system, which Paizo elected to eschew for other rules that were more likely to come up.

So to answer the question, the only RAW way to take a 5' step with a Fly speed is straight up, down, or over. I don't think it would be outrageous to house rule that a 5' step is possible at other angles, though.


Nefreet wrote:
A "shallower angle than 45 degrees" doesn't mechanically exist in Pathfinder with respect to making a 5ft step.

Agreed.

Nefreet wrote:
If you're flying, and you wish to make a 5ft step, your options for going up are either 45° or straight up.

Agreed.

Nefreet wrote:
If you wish to only move 45°, you ascend at half speed, so you can't 5ft step.

I disagree. It seems very odd to me to suggest that if you want to move up at a 45° angle, you must move a distance equal to exactly half your speed. After all, "[y]our speed tells you how far you can move in a round and still do something". There's no requirement to use up all your speed when you move.

Nefreet wrote:
If you wish to only move 45° and make a 5ft step, the only option available is the DC 20 check.

I disagree. This "option" doesn't exist at all. There's a DC 20 check to fly up at greater than 45° angle.

Nefreet wrote:
If you wish to go straight up, you definitely need the DC 20 check.

Agreed.


Actually if you take a 5 foot step flying that means you can't take any other movement and that is considered moving less than half your speed in a round which is a DC 10 fly check to remain flying.


This is a two part question.
Part 1: Does flying upwards cost extra movement? Answer, yes.

CRB p96 fly wrote:

Check: You generally need only make a Fly check when

you are attempting a complex maneuver. Without making a check, a flying creature can remain flying at the end of its turn so long as it moves a distance greater than half its speed. It can also turn up to 45 degrees by sacrificing 5 feet of movement, can rise at half speed at an angle of 45 degrees, and can descend at any angle at normal speed. Note that these restrictions only apply to movement taken during your current turn. At the beginning of the next turn, you can move in a different direction than you did the previous turn without making a check. Taking any action that violates these rules requires a Fly check. The difficulty of these maneuvers varies depending upon the maneuver you are attempting, as noted on the following chart.

Part 2: Does this qualify as difficult terrain? Maybe

CRB p193 wrote:
Difficult Terrain: Difficult terrain, such as heavy undergrowth, broken ground, or steep stairs, hampers movement. Each square of difficult terrain counts as 2 squares of movement. Each diagonal move into a difficult terrain square counts as 3 squares. You can’t run or charge across difficult terrain.

Many people equate the extra cost for moving up steep stairs as the same as flying up at a 45+ degree angle.

Shadow Lodge

I'm just going to say this:

Flying =/= Stepping

Therefore, You can only make a 5' Step while feet are firmly on the ground. No other type of speed can be used for a 5'step without some specific rule in place (like a feat, spell, supernatural ability, SLA, or class ability). No Burrowing, No Swimming, and No Flying.


Master of Shadows, the rules regarding 5-foot steps disagree with you.

CRB p189 wrote:

Take 5-Foot Step

You can move 5 feet in any round when you don’t perform any other kind of movement. Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity. You can’t take more than one 5-foot step in a round, and you can’t take a 5-foot step in the same round that you move any distance.
You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round.
You can only take a 5-foot-step if your movement isn’t hampered by diff icult terrain or darkness. Any creature with a speed of 5 feet or less can’t take a 5-foot step, since moving even 5 feet requires a move action for such a slow creature.
You may not take a 5-foot step using a form of movement for which you do not have a listed speed.

The bolded specifically forbids you from using 5-foot step with forms of movement where you do not have a listed speed (climbing without a climb speed or swimming without a swim speed are two examples).

Thus, if you have a fly speed, climb speed, swim speed, burrow speed you can take 5-foot steps while using those modes of movement.


Quote:
I disagree. It seems very odd to me to suggest that if you want to move up at a 45° angle, you must move a distance equal to exactly half your speed.

I don't see what's odd or unclear about it, "can rise at half speed at an angle of 45 degrees". Makes sense physically too, you're expending a bunch of energy to rise in altitude, moving at 80% (not 50% euclidean, due to diagonal movement you're actually paying 2 squares for 1.6 squares distance) is not at all unreasonable for fighting gravity.

However, I disagree with Nefreet that this translates to not being able to take a 5 foot step necessarily. You can't take 5 foot steps in "difficult terrain or darkness" It's not darkness. It's questionably difficult terrain. The terrain isn't any different than going sideways, it's all air, colloquially speaking. And technically speaking, it doesn't clearly qualify under the definition of difficult terrain.


Crimeo wrote:
I don't see what's odd or unclear about it, "can rise at half speed at an angle of 45 degrees". Makes sense physically too, you're expending a bunch of energy to rise in altitude, moving at 80% (not 50% euclidean, due to diagonal movement you're actually paying 2 squares for 1.6 squares distance) is not at all unreasonable for fighting gravity.

You miss my point. I certainly agree that your speed is halved, and that this is reasonable for ascending movement. What I'm taking issue with is Nefreet's suggestion that moving at half speed means you can't take a 5-foot step.


Right okay I agree on that being unclear. It would depend, I think, on whether you interpret "Dangerous terrain requires 2 moves per square" as just an inciidental description or whether you think it implies the converse is true as well (2 moves means difficult terrain).

By striict first order logic, this is not guaranteed. But I could see some people thinking it is close enough to implied. Personally I'd lean toward first order logic, it not being difficult terrain, thus not prohibiting a 5 foot step.


Gauss wrote:

This is a two part question.

Part 1: Does flying upwards cost extra movement? Answer, yes.

Well, it doesn't really "cost extra movement". Your speed is halved, which will often end up with the same result, but it's not quite the same.

Gauss wrote:

Part 2: Does this qualify as difficult terrain? Maybe

Many people equate the extra cost for moving up steep stairs as the same as flying up at a 45+ degree angle.

I don't believe flying upwards does count as difficult terrain. If it did, then you would have to count each square of movement as two squares, on top of having your speed halved. There's also the final sentence in the Difficult Terrain entry:

PRD wrote:
Flying and incorporeal creatures are not hampered by difficult terrain.

Finally, the "difficulty" of flying is already accounted for by different mechanisms, as shown in the Fly skill - in particular, having to make Fly checks.


I'm in agreement with Callum and Crimeo. You can 5 foot "step" at a 45 degree angle.


PRD wrote:

Take 5-Foot Step

You can move 5 feet in any round when you don't perform any other kind of movement. Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity. You can't take more than one 5-foot step in a round, and you can't take a 5-foot step in the same round that you move any distance.

You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round.

You can only take a 5-foot-step if your movement isn't hampered by difficult terrain or darkness. Any creature with a speed of 5 feet or less can't take a 5-foot step, since moving even 5 feet requires a move action for such a slow creature.

You may not take a 5-foot step using a form of movement for which you do not have a listed speed.

I went to quote the PRD to prove Nefreet right, and found my memory was faulty.

Looks good for 5' step in any direction. Requires fly-check for moving less than half, regardless of direction. Straight up needs the fly-up check.

Sczarni

It doesn't matter if the language is "half speed", "difficult terrain", or "two squares of movement". None of them allow you to take a 5ft step.

You can't claim that half of 5ft is still 5ft. At best it's 2.5ft, and that isn't enough to move you anywhere on the battlemap (including up).

Liberty's Edge

Nefreet wrote:

It doesn't matter if the language is "half speed", "difficult terrain", or "two squares of movement". None of them allow you to take a 5ft step.

You can't claim that half of 5ft is still 5ft. At best it's 2.5ft, and that isn't enough to move you anywhere on the battlemap (including up).

I get the impression that you think that a 5-foot step should not be allowed when a creature's movement is less than full...and while I can see the logic of your stance and while the rules coincide with your thinking, they do not arrive at your conclusion. There is no defined relationship between movement speed and the ability to make a 5-foot step.

The only restrictions in the rules to not being able to take a 5-foot step are that the creature has a movement more than 5 feet, has the movement type, is not moving in difficult terrain or darkness, and is not affected by any other condition that specifically states a 5-foot step is not allowed.

In your way of thinking, a creature with 30 movement could 5-foot step while a Slowed creature with 60 movement (30 effective) cannot...even though they effectively move at the same speed. I have a difficult time seeing how it could work that way.

As far as the rules about taking a 5-foot step straight up while flying, I cannot see it any other way except that it is a legal move. However, as a GM, I would likely impose that the vast majority of winged creatures could not (due to the limitations of the physical form).


Quote:
It doesn't matter if the language is "half speed", "difficult terrain", or "two squares of movement". None of them allow you to take a 5ft step.

I see the quote saying that difficult terrain denies a 5 foot step.

Can you provide citations for half speed or 2 squares denying a 5 foot step? The text under simply "take a 5 foot step" (posted above your post) does not claim either of these denials.

Sczarni

You deleted the part of my post that explained my answer.

I'm looking at the definition of "half".

Half of 5 is not 5.

It doesn't matter if you're Hasted with a speed of 120ft, or a Gnome with a speed of 20ft. Neither can perform a 5ft step under such conditions.


"Speed" as referred to in the fly skill rules = your fly speed.

If your fly speed is, say, 60ft, and you move 5 feet total on your whole move, then you're obviously moving far less than half your speed, both for that one square and overall, so you don't need to worry about violating any half speed rules.

Maybe if your fly speed were 5ft total per action, you might have an argument for that character. Though I'm not sure even then, because it still may just be that 5-foot step is a special action that simply grants you 5 feet of step, full stop. But regardless, I don't know of anything with a 5 foot fly speed so who cares?

Grand Lodge

You cannot do it.

If you want to take a five foot step up at a 45 degree angle, then you move 5 feet up and 5 feat forward, which costs you ten feet of movement. Since unless you have a feet that lets you do it you can only move 5 feet with a 5 foot step, you could at best move 2.5 feet up, and 2.5 feet to the side. But since PF uses a grid combat system, you are stuck.

Now I believe there is a feat or power that lets you move 10 (or was it 15) feet as a 5 foot step. If you had that you could 5 foot step upward and to the side.

Side note, I thought flying straight up still cost double, doesn't it?

Sczarni

FLite wrote:
Side note, I thought flying straight up still cost double, doesn't it?

Flying straight up (DC 20) does not have the "half speed" requirement that the non-check 45° up does.

Liberty's Edge

FLite wrote:

You cannot do it.

If you want to take a five foot step up at a 45 degree angle, then you move 5 feet up and 5 feat forward, which costs you ten feet of movement. Since unless you have a feet that lets you do it you can only move 5 feet with a 5 foot step, you could at best move 2.5 feet up, and 2.5 feet to the side. But since PF uses a grid combat system, you are stuck.

You may want to look at that again on a 3D grid. Moving up 5 feet at a 45 degree angle is similar to moving diagonal on a plane.

Grand Lodge

RedDogMT wrote:
FLite wrote:

You cannot do it.

If you want to take a five foot step up at a 45 degree angle, then you move 5 feet up and 5 feat forward, which costs you ten feet of movement. Since unless you have a feet that lets you do it you can only move 5 feet with a 5 foot step, you could at best move 2.5 feet up, and 2.5 feet to the side. But since PF uses a grid combat system, you are stuck.

You may want to look at that again on a 3D grid. Moving up 5 feet at a 45 degree angle is similar to moving diagonal on a plane.

Except it isn't because the rules specifically say it costs double movement. Not one and a half like diagonals.


Quote:
Except it isn't because the rules specifically say it costs double movement. Not one and a half like diagonals.

That does not mean it is 2 moves. It means it is a diagonal that costs double movement. Presumably it's more than when moving diagonal horizontally because here you're fighting gravity while horizontally you aren't. But the reason is irrelevant, really.

And costing double movement =/= a disqualifying factor for 5-foot steps. Only difficult terrain or darkness disqualify 5-foot steps. Costing double in open air for non-difficult-terrain reasons doesn't disqualify 5-foot steps.

So therefore you can just go ahead and 5 foot step along the diagonal that normally costs double movement, without there being any issue, because nothing ever SAYS there is an issue with doing that.

Grand Lodge

well, except for the fact that 5 foot move says you get 5 feet of movement, and this costs you 10.

So you would say you can 5 foot step in deep bog? That is quad movement and not difficult terrain.


1st to hit FAQ.


Move 5 Feet through Difficult Terrain
In some situations, your movement may be so hampered that you don't have sufficient speed even to move 5 feet (a single square). In such a case, you may spend a full-round action to move 5 feet (1 square) in any direction, even diagonally. Even though this looks like a 5-foot step, it's not, and thus it provokes attacks of opportunity normally.

I would argue this says you cna not five foot into a square that takes more than 5 feet of movement.

I would also argue a bog is a type of difficult terrain

Sczarni

Crimeo wrote:
Only difficult terrain or darkness disqualify 5-foot steps.

You're missing the point we're trying to make.

I'm not saying there's some general rule that states half-movement prevents 5ft steps. But, effectively, that's what happens. You cannot claim with a straight face that half of 5 is still 5. Half of 5ft is 2.5ft, and in Pathfinder that doesn't get you anywhere.


Nefreet wrote:
I'm not saying there's some general rule that states half-movement prevents 5ft steps. But, effectively, that's what happens. You cannot claim with a straight face that half of 5 is still 5. Half of 5ft is 2.5ft, and in Pathfinder that doesn't get you anywhere.

It's not "half-movement". You seem to have a misapprehension about what speed is in Pathfinder. I quoted the definition earlier in this thread, but here it is again:

PRD wrote:
Your speed tells you how far you can move in a round and still do something, such as attack or cast a spell.

So, if I have a fly speed of 60 feet, I can use a move action to fly along level (or down) for up to 60 feet. For that move action, I can also choose to fly 55 feet, or 50 feet, or any other number down to 5 feet. If I don't move in a round, I have the option of using the "take 5-foot step" action to fly 5 feet along (or down).

If I put on some heavy armor, I now have a fly speed of 40 feet. I can use a move action to fly along level (or down) for up to 40 feet. For that move action, I can also choose to fly 35 feet, or 30 feet, or any other number down to 5 feet. If I don't move in a round, I have the option of using the "take 5-foot step" action to fly 5 feet along (or down).

If I take the heavy armor off, and attempt to fly upwards, I now have a fly speed of 30 feet. I can use a move action to fly upwards for up to 30 feet. For that move action, I can also choose to fly 25 feet, or 20 feet, or any other number down to 5 feet. If I don't move in a round, I have the option of using the "take 5-foot step" action to fly 5 feet up.

Now, if instead I had a fly speed of 10 feet to start off with (I was a nightmare creature, for example), and I then attempted to fly upwards, my fly speed would be 5 feet. In this situation, I wouldn't be able to take a 5-foot-step, as spelled out in the "take 5-foot step" section of the rules:

SRD wrote:
Any creature with a speed of 5 feet or less can't take a 5-foot step, since moving even 5 feet requires a move action for such a slow creature.

That's the only restriction on taking a 5-foot-step based on your speed.

Silver Crusade

2 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

Let me try to summarize and merge everyone's points. How does this sound:

    1) Character may attempt to fly up 5 ft (at an angle no less than 45°) provided its fly speed is greater than 5 feet.
    2) To fly up at an angle greater than 45° will require a fly check (DC 20)
    3) If character's base fly speed is greater than 10 ft, a fly check (DC 10) is needed to stay aloft.

    Point of contention: Can this movement count as a five-foot step?

    (Side Notes: If yes, then character might gain access to a full-attack action at higher ground in the same round. If no, character might provoke AoO.)


FLite wrote:

well, except for the fact that 5 foot move says you get 5 feet of movement, and this costs you 10.

No it does not say it costs 10 feet. It says you can only move at up to half speed in that direction. These are not the same thing! You can't just swap them in and out for one another. Read exactly what it says.

If I am, for example, a hawk, my fly SPEED is 60. Half my speed is 30ft. As long as I move < or = 30 ft, I'm moving at half speed or less. 5ft < 30ft, so over that one square, I am unarguably moving (much) less than half speed. Thus, the half speed requirement has been met, and there is no problem.

Quote:
So you would say you can 5 foot step in deep bog? That is quad movement and not difficult terrain.

Bogs are irrelevant because there's an explicit exception made for difficult terrain, so that's unambiguously disallowed. But open air isn't difficult terrain.

Quote:
I'm not saying there's some general rule that states half-movement prevents 5ft steps. But, effectively, that's what happens. You cannot claim with a straight face that half of 5 is still 5. Half of 5ft is 2.5ft, and in Pathfinder that doesn't get you anywhere.

Yes half of 5 is 2.5, but so what? Why are you randomly dividing 5 by 2? It says half speed. 5ft is not your speed. Half your SPEED if you have a 60ft fly speed for example would be 30, no matter what actual distance you're moving, that is a constant value representing half speed for you. 5ft, on the other hand, is the distance you have moved. Distance and speed are different concepts, both in game and in real life.

Silver Crusade

It's true that flying 5 ft is flying less than one's full movement (provided the character's fly speed is greater than 5 ft to begin with) and therefore is ample enough movement to allow for flying up at a diagonal.

But does flying only 5 ft diagonally-up equate to taking a 5-ft step?

The focus needs to be on whether or not the amount of exertion flying up diagonally is double or more than what would be required to be the equivalent of taking a 5-ft step. Said another way, does the amount of time needed to take this action exceed the amount of time consumed by taking a 5-ft step. If so, then it would also follow that this movement can't be categorized as anything less than a move action.


Quote:
Said another way, the focus needs to be on whether or not the amount of exertion flying up diagonally is double or more than what would be required to be the equivalent of taking a 5-ft step.

You are given none of the information you would need to determine this. In fact, it doesn't actually say in the rules that the 45 degree thing is even due to exertion, that was just a flavorful comment / guess.

Quote:
If so, then the amount of time needed to take this action would also exceed the amount of time consumed by taking a 5-ft step.

Exertion =/= time, in game or in real life. Normal moves are not 100% exertion, and we don't know any details about exertion of 5-foot steps, absolute or relative, to other actions or to themselves.

We don't even know how long a free action takes, I don't think...


1 person marked this as a favorite.

"When your character is not in immediate danger or distracted, you may choose to take 10. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check, calculate your result as if you had rolled a 10."

"When you have plenty of time, you are faced with no threats or distractions, and the skill being attempted carries no penalties for failure, you can take 20."

"Since taking 20 assumes that your character will fail many times before succeeding, your character would automatically incur any penalties for failure before he or she could complete the task (hence why it is generally not allowed with skills that carry such penalties)."

Ergo: the fact that the 5-foot step automatically invokes a skill-check that risks falling damage on a failure, it feels like the 'circumstances' are difficult even if the 'terrain' isn't.

I would allow a player to take a five-foot while flying as long as they stayed at the same altitude (with a single DC 15 'hover' check, no half-speed check: the half-speed check feels like it was meant to exclusively refer to move actions, and that a 5-foot step is not halved at all). Or allow the player to take a single five-foot step while descending at a 45 degree angle without invoking a check at all because of the step (although being in the air after the step would still require a hover check).

I don't believe it makes thematic sense to allow a player to ascend with a five-foot step, and (mechanics or not) this is inherently a roleplaying game.

What if I want to "jump" with my five foot step, straight up, without wings, while standing on the ground? Jumping doesn't even COUNT as a move action, it just assumes you are moving when you do it. (Acrobatics does not put a cap on jumping based on movement, or even require movement to attempt a jump - although a running start avoids double DC for jumping across a length).

But let's say it requires I use a five-foot step to jump, and I decide to try for a six-foot jump (DC 24), what then?

A character with Acrobatics trained as a class skill at level 1 and my latest Dex roll would actually have 1d20+9 to a check. (Rolled it: the character failed the six-foot jump on the first roll, but succeeded on the second, only three out of ten rolls were successes).

It doesn't really make sense at all that I'm trying to abuse my five-foot step to move five (or more) feet straight up when the RULES DON'T PROVIDE FOR THAT AT ALL.

So it is for flying.


Quote:
But let's say it requires I use a five-foot step to jump, and I decide to try for a six-foot jump (DC 24), what then?

CRB:

Quote:
You may not take a 5-foot step using a form of movement for which you do not have a listed speed.

So you cannot jump up as a 5-foot step

Flying does have a speed though, so is different.

Liberty's Edge

Crimeo wrote:
Quote:
But let's say it requires I use a five-foot step to jump, and I decide to try for a six-foot jump (DC 24), what then?

CRB:

Quote:
You may not take a 5-foot step using a form of movement for which you do not have a listed speed.

So you cannot jump up as a 5-foot step

Flying does have a speed though, so is different.

Sorry, but that rulebook passage is an invalid argument for this situation. JUMPING is not a form of movement; it is an action taken as a part of movement (generally with regular movement).

No one worries about making a jump less than 5 feet and any jump over 5 feet requires at least 10 feet of movement.


Here's my take on it: If moving 5' costs you more than 5' of movement, then moving that 5' is a move action that provokes.


Quote:
JUMPING is not a form of movement; it is an action taken as a part of movement (generally with regular movement).

Well then by that argument, you can't only jump straight up anyway, because you aren't making any regular movement to make it a part of. If you want to be a stickler on this, then fine, you'd have to jump straight up THEN move forward a bit or something, which disqualifies 5 foot step.

Quote:
No one worries about making a jump less than 5 feet and any jump over 5 feet requires at least 10 feet of movement.

This too. Jumping actually makes you move 10 feet minimum, if it does anything. That disqualifies 5 foot steps in a way that a half speed requirement does not.

Quote:
Here's my take on it: If moving 5' costs you more than 5' of movement, then moving that 5' is a move action that provokes.

Agreed. But flying up at 45 degrees does NOT cost you more than 5' of movement. It only requires that you move half speed or lower. Which we can do without spending more than 5 feet of movement, as long as we don't have an absurdly low fly speed.


I understand the idea that 'move half speed' doesn't change the cost of each square of movement. If the flying movement crossed a space with obstructive terrain (solid fog?), then each square in that terrain would cost 10' of movement, rather than 5'.

IMHO a logical extension of the hampered movement rules and the fly movement rules would be that if you do a combination of fly up at 45 degrees for multiple squares and fly level for multiple squares, then the up at 45 degrees squares are treated as hampered and cost double, and the fly level squares are not. By this logic, 1 square up at 45 degrees would not qualify as a 5' step.

That said, this is my point of view - the RAW are silent and I can see the arguments both ways.


Note that with the interpretation that movement up 45 degree through squares result in those squares treated as hampered terrain, you can avoid this with 10 skill ranks. With 20, you can make a 5' step straight up.

Fly Skill wrote:

10 Ranks: A successful DC 30 Fly check allows you to ascend at a 45-degree angle at full speed. You treat falls after midair collisions as 10 feet shorter with a successful DC 10 Fly check, plus 10 feet for every 10 points by which you exceed the DC.

...
20 Ranks: A successful DC 35 Fly check allows you to fly straight up at full speed. You are considered two size categories larger when determining wind effects on Fly checks.


Cuup wrote:

I believe the "half speed" note is supposed to represent your horizontal movement. For every square you move over, you're also moving one square up. Hence the 45 degree angle. So if your Fly speed is 60' and you wish to ascend at a 45 degree angle, you would move 30' on the game grid (6 squares). You would then note separately that your character is an additional 30' up in the air. It's a little clunky, and limiting at times, but the game wasn't designed with three dimensions of movement in mind. Making more complex maneuvers than a 45 degree ascent/decent, going straight up or down, moving horizontally, or simply not moving at all requires a much more involved rules system, which Paizo elected to eschew for other rules that were more likely to come up.

So to answer the question, the only RAW way to take a 5' step with a Fly speed is straight up, down, or over. I don't think it would be outrageous to house rule that a 5' step is possible at other angles, though.

The 60ft would be the distance traveled up at 45 degrees correct? So the actual linear travel would be 42'. Rounded down = 40'. You would also at that point be 40' off the ground and have traveled 60'.


Quote:
IMHO a logical extension of the hampered movement rules and the fly movement rules would be that if you do a combination of fly up at 45 degrees for multiple squares and fly level for multiple squares, then the up at 45 degrees squares are treated as hampered and cost double

I disagree that this is a logical extension.

There are many possible reasons speed could be restricted other than hampering terrain (effort expended was one example given. Bad math and attempting to simply account for diagonal euclidean distance but rounding 1.4 up for some reason is another). So speed restriction does not necessarily imply hampering terrain as the intention.

Plus that would be a much more bizarre interpretation too than it being something like effort. Air is air. It doesn't seem to make sense that you would call some air normal terrain, and other air hampering terrain, when there's nothing actually physically different about them.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

At my table, a Swim speed means you can take a 5-foot swim; a Climb speed means you can take a 5-foot climb; and a Fly speed means you can take a 5-foot fly.

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