An Argument for the Wasp Familiar


Pathfinder Society

Sovereign Court 5/5 RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Premise: An option is banned only if it conflicts with the nature or goals of the campaign.
Premise: Wasp Familiar does not conflict with the nature or goals of the campaign.
Conclusion: Wasp Familiar should not be banned.
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Reasoning:

Premise #1:
I’m using Jiggy’s guidelines for arguing my point. So there’s more cut & paste

One method is that nothing outside the Core Assumption is allowed, unless it appears to specifically benefit the campaign. That is, when a new book comes out, we "start" with everything banned, and then Tonya and the VO’s looks through it and sees something and says "Hey, X would make the campaign better" and makes an exception for it (i.e., legalize it).

The other method is that new content is generally legal, unless it appears to specifically hurt the campaign. That is, when a new book comes out, we "start" with an assumption that its content will be legal, and then Tonya and the VO’s look through it and sees something and says "Hey, X would cause problems with the campaign" and makes an exception for it (i.e., ban it).
It is my understanding that the latter is the stance of PFS leadership, hence Premise #1.

Premise #2:
I am not aware of any aspect of the campaign with which Wasp Familiar conflicts.
It does not affect wealth.
It does not invite unregulated customization.
It does not skirt alignment restrictions.
It does not slow down gameplay.
It does not have canon issues.
It does not skirt PvP rules.
The above list should all be pretty self-evident.
Since we don’t know why it is banned. I will contend that it should not be.

The first argument I have seen is concern about it being a way to get a familiar or improved familiar without the need for Iron Will (Familiar Bond) or Skill Focus (Eldritch Heritage: Arcane). We already have one step familiar feats with qualifications (Aberrant Tumor) that grant a familiar, as well as the religion feats that grant class abilities to worshipers. (Bloodletting and Blood Vengeance both give a bleed attack at first level, disciple of the sword gives weapon specialization and access to fighter only feats, Dreamed Secrets gives arcane spells to divine casters, Ironbound Master gives armor training.) So this feat is on par with those. For arcane casters with a familiar it is a ‘flavourful familiar’ feat until 5th level, when it becomes similar to a weakened imp familiar.

The next argument I see is that the familiar is ‘better’ than the greensting scorpion because it has a fly speed. In rebuttal, I point to the compsognathus. This familiar gives a +4 bonus to initiative, has a swim speed (instead of fly speed) does slightly more damage, has a more effective poison (dc 12 vs 10, strength damage vs sickened), and scent. Thus the wasp familiar (already costing a feat) is not ‘better’ than end any other familiar.

Now comparing the improved wasp to the imp.
The familiar uses the statistics for an imp but just the statistics. It is still a wasp (albeit an lawful evil outsider) and thus does not have the ability to use magical weapons and items like an imp. Unless you choose to argue that the regular wasp familiar has no wings, 8 legs, and a segmented tail. Also it loses the at will invisibility (2nd level spell, albeit self only) for the 3/day unnatural lust. Much more fun, sure, but much less effective.* That brownies and sprites can use items makes the greater wasp familiar comparable to them. For non-familiar classes, the familiar takes *another* feat to activate, which can be done with improved familiar.

Since it is unlikely that Dirty Tactics will receive an errata, Pathfinder Society should include the errata that it also loses the lawful, evil, and devil subtypes but gains the chaotic subtype. Modifying existing material to better fit the society also has precedent. (True Breed comes immediately to mind, as does alterations of scribe scroll for wizards and brew potion for alchemist)

Finally, I see some people note concerns about the brawler archtype. While I’m unaware of what would make the brawler so uniquely powerful for either incarnation of the familiar. I’d point out that the improved wasp does not qualify, since it does not have ‘speak with others of its own kind’ to replace.

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Based on the argument above, I believe it follows logically that Wasp Familiar should not be banned.

*:
(aside note, personally I think it should have used the stats for a quasit, lose the evil subtype and the invisibility, but replacing the claws with stinger would have been harder, mechanically)

3/5 5/5

I think it was not allowed on the basis of its potential power level. Flavour-wise, it would be nice to allow it, but it would probably require some nerfs or revisions before being let into PFS play.

As a player who frequently uses flying familiars, I think the utility of an aerial scout that blends easily into the background and is hard to spot to begin with cannot be overstated. A free aerial scout of an area before entering it, or to watch your back when defending an area can yield all manner of immensely useful and valuable information, and there are many scenarios where that alone has proven immensely useful.

a few that immediately come to mind:
Port Godless, Icebound Outpost, Destiny of the Sands 2, Way of the Kirin

Add in poison to capitalise on the mobility as well as a stellar familiar bonus and you've got a very potent familiar option.

A Rhamphorhynchus serves as a good basis of comparison. It grants half the initiative bonus despite being a weaker combatant than a compsognathus. The flight is valued that highly, and I'd suggest rightly so. I'd further suggest that at later levels, a decent poison as a debuff is often worth far more than whatever melee prowess your familiar might have (unless of course you are built specifically so that your familiar becomes a combatant). If your GM allows you to extract the poison for a party member, all the more so.

And getting full progression for your familiar without needing caster levels is a huge bonus too.

Finally...is there any reason a Calistrian character (or a character that otherwise lacks a religious aspect) would take improved initiative over this feat?

Scarab Sages

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I think it would be funny to see a Calistrain Halfling (or other small race) get one of these with the Mauler archetype. Suddenly being able to ride your familiar at 3rd level would be interesting.

Grand Lodge 4/5 **** Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento

Technical Note.

While Dreamed secrets is campaign legal, it cannot actually be taken because it's prereqs (worshiper of great old ones / outer gods) is not.

Liberty's Edge 4/5

I'd like to see it made legal as well; OP covered everything I'dve said as well.

A second technical note though: The wasp familiar only ever counts as a normal familiar, and unlike the Improved Familiar feat which specifically removes their ability to speak with their own kind, the wasp familiar feat doesn't have that stipulation. By RAW, you can in fact have a mauler version of it. It would be a solid (but not overpowering) option for a mauler imo.

5/5

I would like to point out a couple of things.

First those other one step feats to getting a familiar all have very steep limitations requiring very specific class features.

Second of all a fly speed is much more powerful than a swim speed, to compare the disparity between compysygnathus and green sting scorpion and wasp familiar and scorpion is not fair.

Thirdly you will note that feat never says it is Improved Familiar when it upgrades. The feat only says that familiar uses the stats of an Imp with a list of exceptions. This important because it means the Wasp keeps all familiar abilities, speak with animals of kind, that get replaced for the more powerful familiar archetypes. So Imp stat line Mauler or Pilfer Wasp.

Finally, if the feat were intended for the wasp to have the game mechanics body of a wasp it is ill written. The upgraded version says that the Wasp uses the stats of an Imp. Well the body type of a creature, and the ability to use manufactured weapons, is one of its stats. Now I agree that a wasp does not have hands, but because the feat forgot to include keeping the body type of a Wasp, the upgraded form also gains the body type of an Imp and all the associated magic item slots. So yes in theory a wasp familiar could wield a great axe, even if it does not make sense.

The Exchange 4/5

Well it could try to kill you that seems like a rather big one.

5/5

shadowhntr7 wrote:

I'd like to see it made legal as well; OP covered everything I'dve said as well.

A second technical note though: The wasp familiar only ever counts as a normal familiar, and unlike the Improved Familiar feat which specifically removes their ability to speak with their own kind, the wasp familiar feat doesn't have that stipulation. By RAW, you can in fact have a mauler version of it. It would be a solid (but not overpowering) option for a mauler imo.

Until it starts flying at you with a great axe.

Manufactured weapons aside, Imps are one of the hypothetically better maulers, if improved familiars could be maulers. Remember that a tiny Imp still has a str of ten. There are only a couple familiars that are better hypothetical choices, and only because they have regeneration.

Silver Crusade 5/5

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I like this better as something special to set aside for John and the team to be able to include as a boon on a chronicle.


Since when is "body type" a stat? Its pretty clear that a "wasp" is supposed to look like a wasp. Not an imp with a stinger and a black and yellow body. Id be personally offended if a player tried to pull that crap on me. "It doesnt *say* it doesnt have an imps body so it does!"

What happened to people just doing reasonable things instead of trying to find and exploit any possible loophole.

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden

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I like the idea of the feat, but I think it's poorly written. As pointed out, it leaves us with all kinds of questions.

- It's an improved familiar AND grants +4 initiative? That's clearly two feats for the price of one.
- The subtype thing.
- "Using the stats of an imp instead", what does that mean? I think it's vague enough to case trouble at tables. It would need to be clarified.
- Hands: wasps don't have hands. Do wasps with imp stats have hands? Are imp-wasps sufficiently implike that the rule saying only {.... imps ...} are allowed to use wands in PFS allows them to?

A feat that has a questionable power level and also needs several more fixes before it's ready for play - probably shouldn't be allowed.


I think familiars in general are one of the more broken things in Pathfinder currently. Just have a look at the familiar archetypes to see some of the absurd things familiars can achieve (e.g. Valet Familiar+Amplified Rage or the Cheerful Mascot in conjunction with Fate's Favored). Balance was thrown out of the window with the printing of the Animal Archive and Familiar Folio.

So now you have a feat open to any character (doesn't even have to be able to cast spells) that provides not only Improved Initiative but also some other powerful abilities and double rolls on most of your skills. Yeah I'd love to have that for every single one of my characters but I know it's far from balanced.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

The feat hasn't appeared on ArchivesofNethys yet. Can somebody quote it?

5/5 5/55/5 ** Venture-Captain, Germany—Hamburg

These are the stats of an imp:

Betiary wrote:

IMP CR 2

XP 600
LE Tiny outsider (devil, evil, extraplanar, lawful)
Init +3; Senses darkvision 60 ft., detect good, detect magic, see in darkness; Perception +7

DEFENSE

AC 17, touch 16, flat-footed 13 (+3 Dex, +1 dodge, +1 natural, +2 size)
hp 16 (3d10); fast healing 2
Fort +1, Ref +6, Will +4
DR 5/good or silver; Immune fire, poison; Resist acid 10, cold 10

OFFENSE

Speed 20 ft., fly 50 ft. (perfect)
Melee sting +8 (1d4 plus poison)
Space 2-1/2 ft.; Reach 0 ft.
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 6th)
Constant—detect good, detect magic
At will—invisibility (self only)
1/day—augury, suggestion (DC 15)
1/week—commune (6 questions, CL 12th)

STATISTICS

Str 10, Dex 17, Con 10, Int 13, Wis 12, Cha 14
Base Atk +3; CMB +1; CMD 15
Feats Dodge, Weapon Finesse
Skills Acrobatics +9, Bluff +8, Fly +21, Knowledge (arcana) +7, Knowledge (planes) +7, Perception +7, Spellcraft +7
Languages Common, Infernal
SQ change shape (boar, giant spider, rat, or raven, beast shape I)

ECOLOGY

Environment any (Hell)
Organization solitary, pair, or flock (3–10)
Treasure standard

SPECIAL ABILITIES

Poison (Ex) Sting—injury; save Fort DC 13; frequency 1/round for 6 rounds; effect 1d2 Dex; cure 1 save. The save DC is Constitution-based, and includes a +2 racial bonus.

Doesn't say anything about body type or magic item slots.

I wouldn't let people use the body type of an imp for a wasp, because it is not an imp, it just uses the same stats.

5/5 5/55/55/5

Perhaps if it was available as a chronicle for a scenario involving calistria there would be room on the chronicle to make the sort of clarifications that don't usually make the additional resources?

Sovereign Court 5/5 RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

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Good morning everyone.

Before I head to work, wanted to hit a couple of points.

  • Fiddlersgreen. As for scouting, it's a wasp the size of a house cat. Not a falcon, or an owl, or a raven. It's potential as a scout is more limited because of its odd appearance. "Waps the size of chihuahuas? Yeah, see 'em all the time." :-)

    As to what Calistran wouldn't take it over improved initative? Ones that a) don't want the huge honking sign that they're a follower of Calistria buzzing by them b) ones that want their improved init always on and c) ones that don't want their improved init trying to kill them. Three good reasons.

  • Mahtobelis, the two bleed feats I posted do not have any prerequesites beyond the worshiper required, the Iomedean feats do not have any prereqs beyond weapon focus, and the aberrant tumor just needs a bloodline. I see none of those as 'steep'

  • 4/5 ****

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    Wasp Familiar:

    The goddess of lust, revenge, and trickery has granted you a living sting to show her favor in you.

    Prerequisites: Chaotic neutral alignment, worshiper of Calistria.

    Benefit: You gain a familiar as per the arcane bond class feature, using your character level as your wizard level.

    The familiar is a cat-sized, chaotic neutral wasp loyal to you. Use the statistics for a greensting scorpion familiar (Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Magic 188), but give it a base speed of 10 feet, a fly speed of 40 feet (average), no Climb bonus, and Fly +7. If you have the ability to gain a familiar through other means (such as the arcane bond class feature), and you are at least 5th level, instead use the statistics for an imp, but replace the invisibility spell like ability with an unnatural lustUM (DC 14) spell-like ability usable three times per day. You can have only one familiar.

    If you ever grossly violate the code of conduct required by Calistria (a violation of the scale that would cause a cleric of Calistria to lose all spells and class features), your familiar turns on you and attacks you until it is killed. To regain a familiar, you must atone for your deeds with the atonement spell, and pay to have the slain familiar raised from the dead. If your familiar is slain or lost through other means, you can replace it using the normal rules for replacing familiars.

    Special: This feat can be taken a second time by characters of 7th or higher level if they do not otherwise have access to familiars. Such characters have access to a wasp familiar that uses the statistics for an imp, as described above.

    It's clearly powercreep.

    Currently if you want a familiar (and don't have a class that does so), you have a cha of 13 and spend 2 feats. and get a familiar at level -2.

    This is 1 feat and it gives you an improved version of one of the most popular familiars along with all that entails.

    ---
    tl;dr; This feat gives you improved initiative, alertness and a little flying buddy.

    It does come with an alignment and worship restriction as well as a hash penalty for "grossly violating" Calistria's tennants

    5/5

    @Matthew: Tumor familiar requiring a specific class to take is pretty steep in my book.

    To everyone saying body type isn't part of a monsters stat I suggest you read the Animal Archive and review the magic items on animals faq that came about afterwards.


    Mahtobedis wrote:

    @Matthew: Tumor familiar requiring a specific class to take is pretty steep in my book.

    To everyone saying body type isn't part of a monsters stat I suggest you read the Animal Archive and review the magic items on animals faq that came about afterwards.

    Right. Which would apply to the wasp as a wasp. Because "Body Type: Imp" is not a tracked stat and so doesnt need to be indicated that it changes when the body changes. Unless youre under the impression that if i get my arms chopped off or i polymorph into a snake i can still use my weapons because neither of those things explicitly state they change my "body type" stat?


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    Robert Hetherington wrote:

    ** spoiler omitted **

    It's clearly powercreep.

    Currently if you want a familiar (and don't have a class that does so), you have a cha of 13 and spend 2 feats. and get a familiar at level -2.

    This is 1 feat and it gives you an improved version of one of the most popular familiars along with all that entails.

    ---
    tl;dr; This feat gives you improved initiative, alertness and a little flying
    ...

    Based on the actual feat text, yea, it seems fairly obvious that it was banned for power reasons and a huge expectancy of table variation.

    Spend 1 feat, acquire the most valuable resource in pathfinder: an extra set of actions.

    Grand Lodge 4/5 **** Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento

    Robert Hetherington wrote:
    ** spoiler omitted **

    Where are people getting that it gives you +4 init in the improved form?

    It doesn't say anything about an init bonus in the feat. It just says use the stats of a green sting scorpion or the stats of an imp. So either the +4 init is part of the stats, in which case you get it for the scorpion, and lose it for the imp, or it is not part of the stats, in which case, you don't get it at all.

    Robert Hetherington wrote:

    This is 1 feat and it gives you an improved version of one of the most popular familiars along with all that entails.

    Except that the imp is popular because it has hands and invisibility. Not saying this isn't an awesome feat, and it certainly skirts the borders of what should be allowed, but it is not *quite* as bad as everyone is making out.

    I would like this feat much more in a home game, where the GM could periodically engineer moral dilemmas for the owner. (The king just betrayed you. Are you going to avenge the insult? Or is your familiar going to try to kill you...)


    FLite wrote:
    Robert Hetherington wrote:

    ** spoiler omitted **

    It's clearly powercreep.

    Currently if you want a familiar (and don't have a class that does so), you have a cha of 13 and spend 2 feats. and get a familiar at level -2.

    This is 1 feat and it gives you an improved version of one of the most popular familiars along with all that entails.

    ---
    tl;dr; This feat gives you improved initiative, alertness and a little flying
    ...

    Where are people getting that it gives you +4 init in the improved form?

    It doesn't say anything about an init bonus in the feat. It just says use the stats of a green sting scorpion or the stats of an imp. So either the +4 init is part of the stats, in which case you get it for the scorpion, and lose it for the imp, or it is not part of the stats, in which case, you don't get it at all.

    Id say you dont get it at all. The familiar bonus is a separate chart, and wasp isnt on it. You get a good pet, but not bonus stats.

    Silver Crusade 5/5 5/5 **

    Alex Mack wrote:
    Just have a look at the familiar archetypes to see some of the absurd things familiars can achieve (e.g. Valet Familiar+Amplified Rage

    Could somebody please explain this. How does the valet archetype break amplified rage?

    Lantern Lodge 5/5

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    I have a sneaking suspicion that this debate over 'what the feat really means,' is what banning it is trying to avoid.

    5/5 5/55/55/5

    Teammate (Ex)

    A valet is considered to have all the teamwork feats its master has.

    So its basically amplified rage on all the time.

    Grand Lodge 4/5 **** Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento

    BigNorseWolf wrote:

    Teammate (Ex)

    A valet is considered to have all the teamwork feats its master has.

    So its basically amplified rage on all the time.

    This one is also Expect Table Variation:

    It doesn't say "bypasses prereqs." So unless your familiar is an Orc, it has the feat Amplified Rage, but doesn't meet prereqs, and so the feat has no affect.

    Unless this is meant to be like the inquisitors solo tactics, where the valet does not get the benefit of the feat, but you do. It is somewhat badly written.

    Grand Lodge 4/5 **** Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento

    Honestly, for a caster, I would rather have escape route. No provoking from moving means never having to cast defensively...

    Scarab Sages 2/5

    A:
    The wasp familiar does not grant a special ability(+4 init) to its master just because it is based on the greensting scorpion. It is not the greensting scorpion. The wasp does not appear on the chart that lists the bonuses familiars give their masters and the feat does not describe one.

    B:
    A wasp is a wasp is a wasp. No matter what creature its stats are based on, it is a still a wasp as per its description in the feat. Thus, it does not have hands. Nor does it appear in the animal archive chart listing magic item slots, thus it only has the standard slots.

    C:
    The imp is a good familiar, but that is mostly due to the invisibility sla and having hands(as well as being able to use them in PFS). To gain the imp stats you must already be able to have a familiar up to level 5. So, it is just like getting a lesser version of improved familiar, and still costs a feat.
    Or, if you would not have a familiar otherwise, you must wait till level 7 and you must get the wasp feat a second time to gain access to the stats. So, judge the imp wasp based on the cost of two feats.
    You can get an animal companion with two feats, at -2 lvl. Three feats for full level AC.

    D:
    It does allow you to do something you could not do otherwise, have improved familiar stats(without all the extra bonuses, IE hands, more useful SLAs) and still be able to take archetypes. This is the only problem I see with the feat. And, it isn't even that bad considering the cost and level requirement. (Since it can not wield wands, the extra actions are not great. Though, mauler would be useful)

    Scarab Sages 2/5

    FLite wrote:
    BigNorseWolf wrote:

    Teammate (Ex)

    A valet is considered to have all the teamwork feats its master has.

    So its basically amplified rage on all the time.

    This one is also Expect Table Variation:

    It doesn't say "bypasses prereqs." So unless your familiar is an Orc, it has the feat Amplified Rage, but doesn't meet prereqs, and so the feat has no affect.

    Unless this is meant to be like the inquisitors solo tactics, where the valet does not get the benefit of the feat, but you do. It is somewhat badly written.

    Unless the ability says it bypasses prereqs, it does not bypass prereqs. The ability to HAVE a feat and the ability to USE a feat are two separate considerations.

    Sovereign Court 5/5 RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

    Baval wrote:


    Id say you dont get it at all. The familiar bonus is a separate chart, and wasp isnt on it. You get a good pet, but not bonus stats.

    Trying not to pipe in, but I'm not sure it should be read that way. Even if it is, I'd still want the feat, for the coolness of having a 'waspinator lite' mascot saying "Look what my goddess got me." :-)

    Scarab Sages 2/5

    Matthew Morris wrote:
    Baval wrote:


    Id say you dont get it at all. The familiar bonus is a separate chart, and wasp isnt on it. You get a good pet, but not bonus stats.

    Trying not to pipe in, but I'm not sure it should be read that way. Even if it is, I'd still want the feat, for the coolness of having a 'waspinator lite' mascot saying "Look what my goddess got me." :-)

    Considering PFS and Pathfinder in general judgments over the years, it would be the reading that has the highest probability of being accepted as true.. A wasp is a wasp, a scorpion is a scorpion. Being 'like' or 'based on' a thing is not being the thing. The special abilities granted by the individual familiars are not part of their stat blocks. It is a bonus found on a separate table or listed specially in the ability granting the familiar. The wasp does not include such text.

    The other main odd familiar type is the tumor familiar, and it says explicitly that it grants the master the 'skill bonus' a familiar would, thus whatever its shape is the master gains that shapes bonus. Greensting scoprion tumor = +4 init.

    Dark Archive 5/5 *

    Then we need to add ant man familiar.

    4/5 ****

    FLite wrote:
    Robert Hetherington wrote:
    ** spoiler omitted **

    Where are people getting that it gives you +4 init in the improved form?

    It doesn't say anything about an init bonus in the feat. It just says use the stats of a green sting scorpion or the stats of an imp. So either the +4 init is part of the stats, in which case you get it for the scorpion, and lose it for the imp, or it is not part of the stats, in which case, you don't get it at all.

    Robert Hetherington wrote:

    This is 1 feat and it gives you an improved version of one of the most popular familiars along with all that entails.

    Except that the imp is popular because it has hands and invisibility. Not saying this isn't an awesome feat, and it certainly skirts the borders of what should be allowed, but it is not *quite* as bad as everyone is making out.

    I would like this feat much more in a home game, where the GM could periodically engineer moral dilemmas for the owner. (The king just betrayed you. Are you going to avenge the insult? Or is your familiar going to try to kill you...)

    I'm not even talking about the imp. The turn your familiar into an imp 2 levels early if you're a Calistrian, or at the normal improved familiar level by taking the feat again doesn't bother me.

    The imp part of the feat is fine powerwise (although obviously confusing based on above questions)

    What I'm talking about is the wasp flavored greensting scorpion familiar that flies.

    Grand Lodge 4/5 **** Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento

    Robert Hetherington wrote:


    I'm not even talking about the imp. The turn your familiar into an imp 2 levels early if you're a Calistrian, or at the normal improved familiar level by taking the feat again doesn't bother me.

    The imp part of the feat is fine powerwise (although obviously confusing based on above questions)

    What I'm talking about is the wasp flavored greensting scorpion familiar that flies.

    Ah. That makes more sense.

    I read "improved version" and somehow conflated that with "improved familiar"

    Silver Crusade 5/5 5/55/5 **** Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria

    I see no fatal flaw with this feat. The only thing that might be troublesome is the ability to use UMD to use wands and other items.

    It's a home made PFS issue, Imps and a small number of other critters can use them, others can't.

    When in doubt, just add the "no fiddling with wands" bit to the additional resources.

    1/5 Venture-Captain, Germany–Hannover

    Lorewalker wrote:
    Matthew Morris wrote:
    Baval wrote:


    Id say you dont get it at all. The familiar bonus is a separate chart, and wasp isnt on it. You get a good pet, but not bonus stats.

    Trying not to pipe in, but I'm not sure it should be read that way. Even if it is, I'd still want the feat, for the coolness of having a 'waspinator lite' mascot saying "Look what my goddess got me." :-)

    Considering PFS and Pathfinder in general judgments over the years, it would be the reading that has the highest probability of being accepted as true.. A wasp is a wasp, a scorpion is a scorpion. Being 'like' or 'based on' a thing is not being the thing. The special abilities granted by the individual familiars are not part of their stat blocks. It is a bonus found on a separate table or listed specially in the ability granting the familiar. The wasp does not include such text.

    The other main odd familiar type is the tumor familiar, and it says explicitly that it grants the master the 'skill bonus' a familiar would, thus whatever its shape is the master gains that shapes bonus. Greensting scoprion tumor = +4 init.

    At this point, it doesn´t actually really matter if you get the +4 INI or not. The table variation is gonna be so big and heated that alone because of that banning the feat is legit.

    Scarab Sages 2/5

    Benjamin Falk wrote:
    Lorewalker wrote:
    Matthew Morris wrote:
    Baval wrote:


    Id say you dont get it at all. The familiar bonus is a separate chart, and wasp isnt on it. You get a good pet, but not bonus stats.

    Trying not to pipe in, but I'm not sure it should be read that way. Even if it is, I'd still want the feat, for the coolness of having a 'waspinator lite' mascot saying "Look what my goddess got me." :-)

    Considering PFS and Pathfinder in general judgments over the years, it would be the reading that has the highest probability of being accepted as true.. A wasp is a wasp, a scorpion is a scorpion. Being 'like' or 'based on' a thing is not being the thing. The special abilities granted by the individual familiars are not part of their stat blocks. It is a bonus found on a separate table or listed specially in the ability granting the familiar. The wasp does not include such text.

    The other main odd familiar type is the tumor familiar, and it says explicitly that it grants the master the 'skill bonus' a familiar would, thus whatever its shape is the master gains that shapes bonus. Greensting scoprion tumor = +4 init.

    At this point, it doesn´t actually really matter if you get the +4 INI or not. The table variation is gonna be so big and heated that alone because of that banning the feat is legit.

    The funny thing is... there should be VERY little to vary on. The feat spells it out pretty well... it just doesn't assume the reader can't read. It says clearly that you have a cat-sized wasp(tiny). Then, it says the wasp has the stats(stat-block) of a greensting scorpion with slight changes spelled out clearly. If you have the advanced version, it gets the imp stats with slight changes. Nothing there says it has the physical nature of a greensting scorpion or imp. You only change what you are told to change. Also, neither the greensting scorpion nor the imp statblocks include giving the master a bonus. So, that is also right out.

    The only thing that seems to be confusing is when some are adding extra ideas to the feat, making assumptions, which are not written in the feat.

    Scarab Sages 2/5

    1 person marked this as a favorite.
    Sebastian Hirsch wrote:

    I see no fatal flaw with this feat. The only thing that might be troublesome is the ability to use UMD to use wands and other items.

    It's a home made PFS issue, Imps and a small number of other critters can use them, others can't.

    When in doubt, just add the "no fiddling with wands" bit to the additional resources.

    It is VERY important to remember... no where in the feat does it say you get an imp. An imp is not what you get. What you get is not an imp. You get a tiny wasp. A wasp does not have hands, it does not even have magic item slots in the animal archive. So, it only has the standard slots for a familiar as if you did not own the animal archive. This does not need extra text, just as a cat familiar and scorpion familiar does not need extra text beyond what is already written about familiars in general. Pretty much everyone knows they don't have hands... but the magic word 'imp' was in the feat so an obvious non-issue becomes a issue despite the fact that there is no basis for the issue.

    5/5 5/55/55/5

    2 people marked this as a favorite.
    Lorewalker wrote:

    The funny thing is... there should be VERY little to vary on. The feat spells it out pretty well... it just doesn't assume the reader can't read. It says clearly that you have a cat-sized wasp(tiny). Then, it says the wasp has the stats(stat-block) of a greensting scorpion with slight changes spelled out clearly. If you have the advanced version, it gets the imp stats with slight changes. Nothing there says it has the physical nature of a greensting scorpion or imp. You only change what you are told to change. Also, neither the greensting scorpion nor the imp statblocks include giving the master a bonus. So, that is also right out.

    The only thing that seems to be confusing is when some are adding extra ideas to the feat, making assumptions, which are not written in the feat.

    Considering that I haven't seen two people that agree on the entire thing yet I'm going to say its not the reading comprehension of the player base.

    Scarab Sages 2/5

    1 person marked this as a favorite.
    BigNorseWolf wrote:
    Lorewalker wrote:

    The funny thing is... there should be VERY little to vary on. The feat spells it out pretty well... it just doesn't assume the reader can't read. It says clearly that you have a cat-sized wasp(tiny). Then, it says the wasp has the stats(stat-block) of a greensting scorpion with slight changes spelled out clearly. If you have the advanced version, it gets the imp stats with slight changes. Nothing there says it has the physical nature of a greensting scorpion or imp. You only change what you are told to change. Also, neither the greensting scorpion nor the imp statblocks include giving the master a bonus. So, that is also right out.

    The only thing that seems to be confusing is when some are adding extra ideas to the feat, making assumptions, which are not written in the feat.
    Considering that I haven't seen two people that agree on the entire thing yet I'm going to say its not the reading comprehension of the player base.

    It is not always a failure to comprehend what you read that causes additional information to get mixed into what is read.

    The feat is fairly clear. Even if it could use a couple more considerations, like subtype changes. The rules for familiars are also pretty clear.

    In PFS, item slots for familiars follows a rigid guideline. That guideline does not give wasps hands. Nor does it give them any slots at all outside of the basic standard set of slots.

    In the absence of additional information in the feat you are left with a familiar with only basic item slots and no granted special ability. Unlike the tumor familiar which does have such information in its text. Yet, these two things seem to be the most confusing part about the feat for some.

    The confusion seems to be based on the assumption that being like a thing makes a thing that thing... but the feat does not grant an imp with all an imp brings nor does the feat grant a scorpion. It grants a wasp which has stats similar to one of those things. As I said earlier in the thread, a wasp is a wasp is a wasp. If you use a table to lookup what bonuses the familiar gets, you would use the word wasp unless otherwise directed by the feat.

    Here is what the statblocks would look like... (there are some odd subtype issues with the wasp(imp), but nothing in the feat says to change them. A bit unfortunate).

    Wasp(greensting scorpion):

    WASP CR 1/4
    XP 100
    CN Tiny vermin
    Init +3; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +4
    DEFENSE
    AC 18, touch 15, flat-footed 15 (+3 Dex, +3 natural, +2 size)
    hp 4 (1d8)
    Fort +2, Ref +3, Will +0
    Immune mind-affecting effects
    OFFENSE
    Speed 10 ft., fly 40 ft. (average)
    Melee sting +5 (1d2–4 plus poison)
    Space 2-1/2 ft.; Reach 0 ft.
    Special Attacks poison
    STATISTICS
    Str 3, Dex 16, Con 10, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 2
    Base Atk +0; CMB +1; CMD 7 (19 vs. trip)
    Feats Weapon FinesseB
    Skills Climb +7, Perception +4, Stealth +15; Racial Modifiers +7 Fly, +4Perception, +4 Stealth
    SPECIAL ABILITIES
    Poison (Ex)
    Sting—injury; save Fort DC 10; frequency 1/round for 6 rounds; effectsickened for 1 round; cure 1 save. The save DC is Constitution-based.

    Wasp(imp):

    WASP CR 2
    XP 600
    CN Tiny outsider (devil, evil, extraplanar, lawful)
    Init +3; Senses darkvision 60 ft., detect good, detect magic, see in darkness; Perception +7
    DEFENSE
    AC 17, touch 16, flat-footed 13 (+3 Dex, +1 dodge, +1 natural, +2 size)
    hp 16 (3d10); fast healing 2
    Fort +1, Ref +6, Will +4
    DR 5/good or silver; Immune fire, poison; Resist acid 10, cold 10
    OFFENSE
    Speed 20 ft., fly 50 ft. (perfect)
    Melee sting +8 (1d4 plus poison)
    Space 2-1/2 ft.; Reach 0 ft.
    Spell-Like Abilities (CL 6th)
    Constant—detect good, detect magic
    3/day—unnatural lust (DC 14)
    1/day—augury, suggestion (DC 15)
    1/week—commune (6 questions, CL 12th)
    STATISTICS
    Str 10, Dex 17, Con 10, Int 13, Wis 12, Cha 14
    Base Atk +3; CMB +1; CMD 15
    Feats Dodge, Weapon Finesse
    Skills Acrobatics +9, Bluff +8, Fly +21, Knowledge (arcana) +7, Knowledge(planes) +7, Perception +7, Spellcraft +7
    Languages Common, Infernal
    SQ change shape (boar, giant spider, rat, or raven, beast shape I)
    SPECIAL ABILITIES
    Poison (Ex)
    Sting—injury; save Fort DC 13; frequency 1/round for 6 rounds; effect 1d2 Dex; cure 1 save. The save DC is Constitution-based, and includes a +2 racial bonus.

    5/5 5/55/55/5

    Lorewalker wrote:
    not always a failure to comprehend what you read that causes additional information to get mixed into what is read.

    Which is a necessary part of any reading comprehension, even moreso in this system which has to be readable and of reasonable length, so it can't be in legalese.

    Quote:
    The confusion seems to be based on the assumption that being like a thing makes a thing that thing...

    Being like a thing is a bad design , as skr was fond of saying something should be the same or it should be different.'

    Having something like something else brings in the question of where the differences are and where the similarities are. You cannot split loki's neck like that and then declare that you have the exact spot that was specified and everyone else is an idiot.

    Scarab Sages 2/5

    BigNorseWolf wrote:
    Lorewalker wrote:
    not always a failure to comprehend what you read that causes additional information to get mixed into what is read.

    Which is a necessary part of any reading comprehension, even moreso in this system which has to be readable and of reasonable length, so it can't be in legalese.

    That is only true when the information blended is from game text. We always have to take new rules in the context of old rules. But, you can't just say a feat does any old thing and have it be legitimate just because it isn't written in 'legalese'. Some things are vague and require adjudication and some things are not, or only have small areas of wiggle room. When something is not vague and you add additional information to it or you move outside of its wiggle room... you are no longer following the rule to your best, but redefining it. I speak in the context of PFS.

    There is nothing wrong with redefining rules outside of PFS, of course.

    Here are examples of the logical steps to decide if the wasp has either hands or gives +4 init:

    statements:

    Statement: A wasp familiar gets the statblock of a greensting scorpion, a greensting scorpion grants +4 init to its master.
    Question: Does the wasp familiar have a special ability to grant its master a +4 init?
    Answer: A greensting scopion grants a +4 init. A wasp familiar has the statblock of a greensting scorpion.
    Question: Does that bonus originate from the scorpions statblock?
    Answer: No. It is from a lookup table.
    Question: Then, is the wasp familiar a greensting scorpion?
    Answer: No, it is not. It is a wasp as per the feats description.
    Question: Does the wasp appear in the lookup table?
    Answer: No.
    Final answer: No, the wasp gains no special ability to grant its master a +4 init.

    Statement: A wasp familiar gets the statblock of an imp.
    Question: Does a wasp have the body of an imp?
    Answer: The form of a creature is mostly from its fluff description. ACs and familiars have a table describing their slots.
    Question: What is the description of the wasp?
    Answer: "The familiar is a cat-sized, chaotic neutral wasp loyal to you."
    Question: Does the wasp appear in the table describing what slots it has?
    Answer: No.
    Question: What does a wasp look like?
    Answer: Google image it.
    Question: Does that image have hands?
    Answer: No.
    Question: Does the fact that a wasp does not have hands matter?
    Answer: No. As this is PFS, a familiar not in the table only has the barding and neck slots unless otherwise stated. It only matters when taking the extra item slot feat, which requires the familiar to be in the table and have additional possible slots. The imp has biped(hands).
    Question: Then, is the wasp an imp?
    Answer: Just as the wasp is not a greensting scorpion, a wasp is also not an imp.
    Final Answer: No, the wasp familiar does not have the body of an imp.

    Are these answers RAI or RAW?
    RAW and FAQ.

    BigNorseWolf wrote:
    Lorewalker wrote:


    The confusion seems to be based on the assumption that being like a thing makes a thing that thing...

    Being like a thing is a bad design , as skr was fond of saying something should be the same or it should be different.'

    Having something like something else brings in the question of where the differences are and where the similarities are. You cannot split loki's neck like that and then declare that you have the exact spot that was specified and everyone else is an idiot.

    Whether or not it is a bad design... being a bad design does not open it to free interpretation.

    You do not have to guess the differences. Nor did I arbitrarily point to some I decided on. The differences are spelled out in the feat in black and white. Argue about the choice of differences if you like, but you can't argue that the differences are not already there for your perusal.
    You are given a description, told to pull statblocks and then told to modify those statblocks in specific ways. The only thing not specifically noted as a change on the statblock is that instead of, say, greensting scorpion being the label of the statblock you should put wasp. IE: It does not literally say "delete the label heading and put wasp there") But, even then, the feat specifically says that the wasp is... a wasp. A wasp which has the stats of a different thing with modifications. It does not say that it is a wasp in addition to being the previous label. So, wasp becomes its new label due to being what it is as per its description.

    Now, if you do you want to tell me that I'm a fool for saying a wasp is a wasp? Would I also be foolish to say a skeleton is a skeleton and a froghemoth is a froghemoth? Perhaps a balor is a riding dog? If so, then a wasp can also be an imp and they do in fact have hands and can use wands legally in pfs.

    tl;dl
    I'm not pulling my statements out of my butt. A wasp is a wasp. The feat tells you what differences there are. If you want to argue, argue against my points, not generalities.

    5/5 5/55/55/5

    Lorewalker wrote:
    When something is not vague and you add additional information to it or you move outside of its wiggle room... you are no longer following the rule to your best, but redefining it. I speak in the context of PFS.

    Horsefeathers. PFS requires at least as much interpretation as any other venue, probably more because you can't make the players sign the disclosure agreement that rampant rules lawyering will get you a core rulebook to the head. This is why shield master doesn't let you chuck a shield 300 yards blind, in the dark while sickened and level drained with no attack penalty.

    Quote:
    There is nothing wrong with redefining rules outside of PFS, of course.

    No one is doing that. Stop implying that they are. Its not happening, and its not productive, its just insulting people.

    Quote:

    Here are examples of the logical steps to decide if the wasp has either hands or gives +4 init:

    ** spoiler omitted **...

    Alright Aquinas....

    Statement: A wasp familiar gets the statblock of a greensting scorpion, a greensting scorpion grants +4 init to its master.

    Flag on the play. You have added stablock in place of what it actually says.

    Use the statistics for a greensting scorpion familiar

    Statistics. Not stat block. For a scorpion familiar, NOT for a scorpion.

    You've just done what you've said is a cardinal sin and interpreted statistics as stat block. Yes, that's persnickity, but so is saying that the line right under the block isn't part of the stat block. Thats an entirely arbitrary cut off point.

    And yes, it is listed on the statistics

    A greensting scorpion familiar grants a +4 bonus on Initiative checks so long as the familiar is within 1 mile of the spellcaster. A greensting scorpion familiar loses the mindless trait and has an Intelligence score appropriate for its master's level.

    As a side note, Body types matter for familiars: They have the more restrictive of the armor +neck or the chart. (oh wait, they do have neck. This is now semi pointless...)

    Animal companions are also limited by their individual anatomies.:
    In Pathfinder Society Organized Play, animal companions always have access to barding and neck-slot items so long as they have the anatomy. For example, a horse and pig can always have access to barding and neck-slot items. A snake does not have access to either. However, an item called out to be used by a specific animal is usable by that animal regardless of slot. (it would be arguable that that doesn't apply to familiars until...)

    First, an animal companion, familiar, or bonded mount, may choose one slot listed under its body type when taking the Extra Item Slot feat (this feat may be taken multiple times, each time selecting a different available magic item slot based on the creature’s anatomy). Second, access to specific magic item slots may be granted at a later date by another legal source. If you do not own a copy of the Animal Archive, your animal companion may only use barding and neck-slot items.

    If you excluded familiars from the first paragraph the second paragraph would be meaningless.

    Quadruped/
    Hexapod (feet)
    Armor, belt (saddle),
    chest, eyes, headband,
    neck, shoulders, wrist
    Camel, dinosaur (triceratopsB1), elephantB1, giant antUM,
    giant mantisUM, giant waspUM, hippopotamusB2, mammothB1,
    mastodonB1, megafauna (arsinoitheriumB2, baluchitheriumB3,
    megatheriumB2), rhinocerosB1

    Wasp Familiar:

    The goddess of lust, revenge, and trickery has granted
    you a living sting to show her favor in you.
    Prerequisites: Chaotic neutral alignment, worshiper
    of Calistria.
    Benefit: You gain a familiar as per the arcane bond class
    feature, using your character level as your wizard level.
    The familiar is a cat-sized, chaotic neutral wasp loyal to
    you. Use the statistics for a greensting scorpion familiar
    (Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Magic 188), but give it a base speed
    of 10 feet, a f ly speed of 40 feet (average), no Climb bonus,
    and Fly +7. If you have the ability to gain a familiar through
    other means (such as the arcane bond class feature), and
    you are at least 5th level, instead use the statistics for an
    imp, but replace the invisibility spell-like ability with an
    unnatural lustUM (DC 14) spell-like ability usable three times
    per day. You can have only one familiar.
    If you ever grossly violate the code of conduct required
    by Calistria (a violation of the scale that would cause a
    cleric of Calistria to lose all spells and class features), your
    familiar turns on you and attacks you until it is killed. To
    regain a familiar, you must atone for your deeds with the
    atonement spell, and pay to have the slain familiar raised
    from the dead. If your familiar is slain or lost through
    other means, you can replace it using the normal rules
    for replacing familiars.
    Special: This feat can be taken a second time by characters
    of 7th or higher level if they do not otherwise have access
    to familiars. Such characters have access to a wasp familiar
    that uses the statistics for an imp, as described above.


    Wow didn't think there was a way to come up with an argument that the wasp wouldn't grant the initiative bonus.

    Anyways the discussion in this thread will likely reinforce the opinion by campaign coordination that banning the wasp was a good move.

    Sovereign Court 4/5 5/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden

    If a lot of generally sensible people come to different conclusions about the meaning of a text, then I'd call that a confusing text. Even if everyone is convinced the text is perfectly clear and just all the other people are wrong. If the text is so hard to get a consensus on, the text isn't clear.

    Confusing text combined with possibly OP element: not a good thing in PFS.

    I really like the idea of the cat-sized wasp familiar, but this way of implementing that idea mechanically just doesn't work for PFS.

    Sovereign Court 5/5 RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

    I will say, I'm surprised at how many ways the feat can be read. As much as I want to put this on my Calistran bard (who I think earned it for 'Basic Instincting' a 7th level NPC to death as a second level bard) It really does look like it belongs on a chronicle to have it standardized.

    Sorry Mayim.

    P.S. Anyone else want to argue for including coin shot? Given my talking myself out of this feat being legal as is, I'd like someone else to try for the spell. lest I coin shoot myself in the foot. ;-)

    Silver Crusade 5/5 5/55/5 **** Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria

    Matthew Morris wrote:

    I will say, I'm surprised at how many ways the feat can be read. As much as I want to put this on my Calistran bard (who I think earned it for 'Basic Instincting' a 7th level NPC to death as a second level bard) It really does look like it belongs on a chronicle to have it standardized.

    Sorry Mayim.

    P.S. Anyone else want to argue for including coin shot? Given my talking myself out of this feat being legal as is, I'd like someone else to try for the spell. lest I coin shoot myself in the foot. ;-)

    They could always just add some specific language to the additional resources, or even the relevant stat blocks.

    Scarab Sages 4/5

    The feat should be allowed in Pathfinder Society. It's an aesthetic decision.

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