Sadistic Personality Disorder, without evil


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Grand Lodge

I am looking to create a PC with Sadistic Personality Disorder, but without actually being evil. Struggling with the condition, in an effort to not only fit into society, but even perhaps, be a better person.

How can I roleplay such a character, and maintain a nonevil alignment?


  • You could try and do a Good act for every time you slip up and commit Evil.
  • Or if the level of the game is high enough, go buy an Atonement spell.
  • Maybe get an Emissary familiar as your "Jiminy Cricket"?
  • Try channeling your Evil into "violence for Good", a la Batman?


Well, such a character would fit into (L?)N.

Should be proficient with whips, definitely whips. (Bard?)
Leather armor.
Intimidate with words of prospect of 'delightful punishment' and 'all the fun of interrogation'.

To be good and fit in.... perhaps unleash the tendencies in the job of interrogator with villains, if female stay cheerful while on the job.
Apologize before and after the act of 'punishment'.
"Before we begin, i would like to apologize for what comes next."
"I apologize, i might have gone slightly overboard. Would you like to confess, or should i continue? I am sorry to say, i have invented a brand new method for [insert whatever]"[/b]

Maybe if on adventure, some more innocent tricks to give people the 'ouch' factor. Misplaced thumbtack? S(l)apping fingers as a warning, while waving index finger in a disapproving way.

Stay vigilant and brave when around friends, use known methods in a way least cruel as/if you can.
Tying up just a bit too tight? > He's a villain, suck it up.
'Accidentally' casting spark near his privates? Good for show and persuasion.
Oops, you've spilled some hot wax from your favorite reading candle.


Depends on how in control he is. He could have a job as a doctor, as you see many people suffer in such a field and he could thrive as a surgeon or battlefield medic where he deliberately avoids using any form of painkiller.

There are plenty of ways for someone to thrive off of pain and violence where you aren't the one committing it. Putting yourself into violent situations with effort to both resolve and glorify yourself in them is another way to do so.

Another thing he could do to maintain a good alignment is hunt and torture purely evil creatures. Perhaps someone who hunts vampires, bandits, or otherwise.

Lastly as VRMH said, you could channel your evil for good.


Not that difficult - if sadistic personality disorder is all that's wrong, then you're aware that actually acting on your impulses would generally be wrong.

You might pretty cheerfully volunteer to handle interrogations.

If a spellcaster, you might prep/learn the occasional [pain] spell, even though those spells aren't terrible practical to actually use.

You might also have ranks in both heal and profession(torturer), reflecting obsessive study if not actual experience.

You might also be kind of depressed, simply because of the difficulty of finding a special someone who'd enjoy being on the receiving end of what you actually want to do.

(And alternatively, you might have a string of failed relationships because the other person didn't want that, and you struggled to keep in interest in the relationship as a result.)

Being a sadist doesn't in of itself make you a bad person. It's acting on it that's the problem.


Zhangar wrote:
You might also be kind of depressed, simply because of the difficulty of finding a special someone who'd enjoy being on the receiving end of what you actually want to do.

You may then be the only person in Golarion with a use for the Lesser Simulacrum spell.


This character would probably be neutral at best. The only way you could pull this off with a good alignment is if you have the disorder, but are firmly in control of it, or only indulge yourself with a willing target.

Even a neutral character is going to be hard pressed to avoid slipping into an evil alignment. If you limit yourself to going after only evil targets and people who attack you first you may be able to maintain a neutral alignment. Even with a neutral alignment you will still need to maintain a great deal of control. Occasionally torturing a bad guy to get information may be ok, but when you start torturing every one for no reason you have slipped into evil. Also be careful about animals and other non-sentient creatures.


If 3PP material is acceptable, Rogue Genius Games published the "Sinful Feats of Lust", and Sadist is one of those. You get mechanical benefits for doing sadistic things (pain effects, crits, etc.), and that might be worth looking into.

Grand Lodge

Yes, I suppose some form of neutral would be what I aim for.

Coming up with a few good deeds, that would be within character, might be a challenge.

Motivation for committing good deeds may be the real challenge.

What are some good motivations, for someone with such a condition?


"For the greater good!"

- x - = + (bad things on bad people = good deeds)

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

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blackbloodtroll wrote:

I am looking to create a PC with Sadistic Personality Disorder, but without actually being evil. Struggling with the condition, in an effort to not only fit into society, but even perhaps, be a better person.

How can I roleplay such a character, and maintain a nonevil alignment?

Become a Game Designer.


Do like real in life Sadists, get consent from a willing Masochist. Bonus points if they're your cohort XD

Though seriously there are some weird "Sadist" options in PF, like the Sadist's Lash which actually lowers another's chance to resist enchantment spells. I also think as The Fiend Fantastic said, long as you direct that sadism towards enemies you'll be fine, or at least not evil. I think Lawful Neutral is the best route, though you could maybe be LG, depending on your DM, if you were very apologetic about enjoying it.

*Sadist is finishing an enemy bandit*
"Yes, how does my blade feel, scum?"
*Twists Blade, grinning madly*
*Party give Sadist PC a weird look*
Sadist: "... I'm sorry guys, I just sorta get caught up in the moment. I'll stop at the temple back in town for an atonement. Again."


Trying to do good deeds to avoid being evil does not work that well. A good example would be if you follow a lawful good code that among other things says you have to give money to the poor. If the only reason you give money to the poor is because you follow the code than is not really a good act, but rather a lawful act. The good person wants to help other, the neutral person does not care that much about other people, and the evil one want to hurt other people.

What you could is limit your sadism to a particular group and treat others normally or even treat them well. Maybe you are interested in adults and actually treat children and animals fairly well. You could also focus on one sex or race. Maybe you get off on torturing adult elves, but have a soft spot for kids. You leave elven children alone at least until they are fully grown.

Shadow Lodge

Leaving kids alone doesn't make someone who tortures adults not evil.

blackbloodtroll wrote:
What are some good motivations, for someone with such a condition?

For starters, adventuring is one of the few occupations in which you can indulge a taste for violence & pain without quickly punching a ticket to the lower planes. Whether or not it's actually OK to do evil unto evil, if a bunch of orcs are attacking a town, it's going to get messy and is it really all that bad that you enjoy your work?

As mentioned above, finding a suitable partner might also be a big focus.

And of course such a character can have motivations that don't have to do with sadism. Maybe he also has strong family ties or has a competitive streak.

You can even interweave these with the sadism angle - maybe he first realized that he enjoyed causing pain when he was defending a younger sibling from a bully and went a little too far. Maybe he has a rival who also serves as a "dark reflection" of himself, and part of his determination to prove himself better than the rival is also a moral challenge - proving that his decision to limit his impulses is the correct one.


You would veer towards evil undoubtedly, probably chaos too.

A person with this condition, a sadist, would exceed the 'violence' required in any situation, even when killing evil things so forget the 'greater good' argument - you like inflicting pain. Their motivation is enjoying the administration of pain, period. Regardless of whether an entity deserves it or not, regardless of the consequences, the suffering of another is what they get off on. Note the pain and suffering might be mental as well as physical, the more the better.

Now the 'disorder' part, this means they are compelled to do this. Are you able to fight this? Depends. Most serial killers have a compulsion to kill and are not 'Lektor' like masterminds. The longer they go without killing, the stronger the urge becomes.

That makes it hard to maintain a good alignment in my book. You may kill bad guys, but your motives are sadistic pleasure (and probably treasure) but if you don't you'll do it to someone else far less evil given the opportunity.

Liberty's Edge

Dexter?

Grand Lodge

Hmm. This has given me some things to think about.

Perhaps, religion, or some sort ideal, motivates good acts?

The desire, and possibly succumbing to said desires, will obviously never push this character beyond neutral.

So, whilst compulsion motivates occasional sadistic acts, there must be something equally powerful to motivate one to commit good acts, in order to balance them out.


Zon Kuthon?

Ideal: no rest for the wicked....sadism style.


An Inquisitor would probably fit quite well with the whole "sadism" part of the character, and since Inquisitors are usually the ones torturing non-believers, heretics, those who refuse to believe in the "true calling" of the world, etc. To the ends of "good," it'd probably fit the best.

Of course, I put stuff in quotes as it is subjective, but as long as your quoted parts fit what's written in the Core regarding Alignment, you should do just fine.

Grand Lodge

Well, actually, I am planning this for a Gnome Mesmerist, but that's not necessarily relevant.

Anyone can have personality disorders, strong beliefs, convictions, or crisis of morality.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

Well, actually, I am planning this for a Gnome Mesmerist, but that's not necessarily relevant.

Anyone can have personality disorders, strong beliefs, convictions, or crisis of morality.

It is just the degree of control that is variable...


Honestly, violence in and of itself is neither good or evil, nor is being a violent person. It matter who you inflict that violence upon. As long as your character has a willing subject, he can be just about anywhere on the Good/Evil axis, though if he restricts himself to only his willing subject he'd fall pretty solidly in the Lawful category.

Grand Lodge

My only concern, is to maintain a non-evil alignment.


Not only are the above suggestions good ideas for roleplaying a nonevil sadist, but you can also have your character 'slip a little' when dealing with enemies, then later punishing himself for it while praying for the fortitude to resist the temptation later.

Most sadists, clinically speaking, have a VERY distinct aversion to suffering pain themselves, unless they are also sadomasochists. So the character punishing himself/herself for these occasional 'slip-ups' can be a real act of contrition, one that keeps the character above the evil line on alignments.

Look up historical information on orders of flagellant monks to see what I mean. When they sinned, they would punish themselves by scourging their own flesh, often while weeping and fervently praying for forgiveness.

It's a little on the angsty side, but could add some depth to your character AND allow you to indulge in their darker side, while still keeping them from becoming Asmodeus/Zon-Kuthon's pain dolls in the afterlife.


StrangePackage wrote:
Dexter?

This

Grand Lodge

Perhaps a devotion to a good deity of sorts, would bring good motivation to "stay on track", and minimize cruel actions?


Particularly a hot deity like Shelyn. Just admit it, if you knew you were serving HER, you wouldn't let yourself slip as much! In all honesty though, it seems like followers of hot female deities slip much less than those that follow frumpy male deities in RPGs.

Liberty's Edge

This may work as setting it up as an alternate personality with it's own separate mental stats, alignment and skills. When whatever stimuli that triggers it is present, you can have the GM roll a behind the scenes save to see if you slip into the other personae. That way the primary "self" can be of good alignment, but the alternate side dwelling inside could be of evil nature that has a constant internal struggle.

Grand Lodge

"Alternate Personality" is something I won't deal with.


Honestly, I don't see it as that big a deal, depending on how nasty you want to be. Being sadistic doesn't mean you can't also be generous and willing to help others - heroic in many ways. As long as you channel those sadistic tendencies against worthy targets, you should be able to to walk the good/neutral line without too much trouble.

If you actually want to play out the real mental illness, I'd advise against it. In the real world, such behavior is almost always directed at family or others under the person's control or influence and usually involves a lot of manipulation and control along with the actual physical abuse. Real world mental illnesses also tend to be more complicated than most of us can or want to get in roleplaying. I for one wouldn't want to spend enough time thinking like that to get the behavior right.
Also, "Sadistic Personality Disorder" isn't actually recognized in the current version of the DSM. I'm not sure what's replaced it.

Playing a more pop-culture version of a sadist, basically just going overboard on the violence and enjoying causing pain to the bad guys, is likely to go over better.
And of course, talk to your GM and possibly the other players beforehand.


I still don't see the issue with roleplaying an insanity. It's a FANTASY GAME! Last I checked, no one is roleplaying a real person.


Divinitus wrote:
I still don't see the issue with roleplaying an insanity. It's a FANTASY GAME! Last I checked, no one is roleplaying a real person.

To me it depends on how close you want to do it.

Playing a parody of an insanity is easy, but it's a parody. Trying to get it right is hard. Especially the really creepy kinds of insanity. I don't think like someone with Sadistic Personality Disorder and I don't enjoy trying to.

Shadow Lodge

blackbloodtroll wrote:
My only concern, is to maintain a non-evil alignment.

So, just don't do evil stuff.

Good Versus Evil seems clear enough.

'Sadistic Personality Disorder' isn't a real thing (anymore), but it's a great foundation for a character's motivation.
Someone like this would probably be diagnosed with Narcissistic, Borderline, or Antisocial Personality Disorders today.

Suggestions:
This person would be an incredible jerk. They would derive satisfaction out of seeing others experience consequences, failing, or by manipulating them into bad situations. They might be a coward, but would probably go to great lengths to conceal this fact from others. A lot of people seem to think that Evil in PF is synonymous with 'bad'. That's simply not the whole story.

Choices a sadistic character might make:
-manipulation
-cheating (not for personal profit)
-showing off
-intentionally sandbagging to cause the group to fail
-taking all the credit
-placing blame on everyone else
-highlighting their own accomplishments ad nauseam, especially if it therefore highlights everyone else's failings
-refusing to volunteer so that others have to do the dirty work
-obnoxiously volunteering first so that others look bad
-grandstanding
-lying
-lying to mess with other, weaker characters
-lying to divert blame
-lying for the fun of it, especially if someone else experiences consequences as a result
-'cutting in' on someone else's good time/love interest/hard work
-acting or failing to act at just the right moment to cause a problem
-intentionally dragging their feet to make everyone late
-feigning illness/injury/inability to help at convenient times
-picking on the weak
-bullying
-loudly explaining others' failings to 'the boss'

Avoid "hurting, oppressing, or killing others" and you're good.
Weasel out of 'hurting others' by saying stuff like:
'Sticks and stones right? right? geez...'
'I'm just being a jerk. I can't help it.'
'You're too sensitive. I'm just having a little fun that's all!'
(and then go talk about them behind their back)

In combat:
-intentionally avoid setting up a flank for your Rogue ally
-take a round to cure yourself instead of rescuing an ally
-go 'the long way' if you can avoid getting wet/dirty/injured/sweaty
-volunteer other allies to do something dangerous first
-unnecessarily buff yourself with a spell that someone else really, really wants

You might want high ranks in Bluff, Diplomacy, and Sense Motive to cover your tracks and find weaknesses in other characters/NPCs.

Just be an insufferable a**hole without directly causing harm to others.
CN or N would work great.
CN for the 'This behavior amuses me, that's why' approach.
N for the 'I do this because I don't care. At all.' approach.


As a GM, I'd ask a character who wanted a negative personality trait to have a positive one that balances it out - one that comes up on a regular basis and helps give some added depth to the character. For example, maybe they donate some of their income to charity, provide free services (healing, entertainment, whatever) when they go to town, or otherwise actively try to help others somehow.

It's important that whatever is chosen fits with the character in question - it shouldn't seem out-of-place. Regret and concern ("I'm worried about how much I enjoy hurting my enemies, so at least I can do X as well") often works, though that's certainly not the only way of explaining it.

To address Tomos' thoughts, I do not recommend being a jerk to the rest of the party - it's fine if you want to be sadistic towards enemies, but even sadists can have close friends that they like and don't want to see suffer... and anyone who wanted to piss off the other players and refused to stop would soon find themselves asked to leave any table I'm running. XD; It's important that everyone has fun.


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Divinitus wrote:
I still don't see the issue with roleplaying an insanity. It's a FANTASY GAME! Last I checked, no one is roleplaying a real person.

It's one of those things that can be a touchy subject. For an example, one of the games I'm in one of the character's has an abused/raped story as a key part of their character. Another player who has suffered such trauma in their own life found their portrayal and actions related to the subject not only lacking, but in some ways belittling to the their own experiences. It was painful for everyone.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

I am looking to create a PC with Sadistic Personality Disorder, but without actually being evil. Struggling with the condition, in an effort to not only fit into society, but even perhaps, be a better person.

How can I roleplay such a character, and maintain a nonevil alignment?

If we hit the check boxes, we'll end up with someone who has poor patterns of motivation, poor behavior patterns, is inflexible in behavior and therefore has difficulty in social situations (maybe low cha?), favors physicality in maintaining dominance, humiliates and demeans others in front of other people, abuses his subordinates, is amused by other people's pain, lies to inflict pain, uses intimidation and physical threat to get his way, is controlling instead of allowing other people to do what they want to do, and is probably a martial character or offensive caster if caster.

This is going to be neutral at best, most likely chaotic (think street gang member or leader) and probably full martial or 1/2 caster (blood rager). Probably a class that relies more on brute force than skill (barbarian/blood rager) and demands strict obedience from other people under pain of a thorough thrashing.

Expect the other PCs to rebuke you, so you might want to ensure you have some sort of pet or cohort you can beat up. People with this disorder don't "get better." Personality Disorders are so far ingrained in the person that major therapy and drugs are typically required to prevent the person's disorder from controlling everything. The person can be trained to sublimate the personality disorder into something more healthy, but this typically requires a ton of therapy. It is usually easier to tag these people for multiple felonies and throw them in a hole for the rest of their lives if they can't maintain control.

It really just depends on how much the character sublimates his desires and behavior, but it also depends on who is holding his leash. If there is a level 10 Cleric of (good god here) who is waiting for him to step out of line and *turns up the music* is listening *turns down the music* then he might make better decisions to avoid being hunted down like a monster.

So, doable? Yes.
Advisable? Not really. These characters tend to be better evil characters, and typically better chaotic evil bullies that no one will miss. I mean, if you read how Orcs are supposed to work, they all probably have this personality disorder by default.

Just to add to this, if you are interested in the difference between a personality disorder and a basic disorder, compare OCD to OCPD.

Shadow Lodge

@GM Rednal: I totally agree, but BBT asked how to play such a character, not if he should attempt it. Having seen him post for quite some time now, I have confidence that he understands this idea.

Taku Ooka Nin wrote:


People with this disorder don't "get better." Personality Disorders are so far ingrained in the person that major therapy and drugs are typically required to prevent the person's disorder from controlling everything. The person can be trained to sublimate the personality disorder into something more healthy, but this typically requires a ton of therapy. It is usually easier to tag these people for multiple felonies and throw them in a hole for the rest of their lives if they can't maintain...

I can't even...

In the interest of not derailing this thread, I'll just say in response that BBT's character concept is definitely possible and something that could be quite fun to play.

Another idea:
Consider John C. Reilly's character in Anger Management (2003) He's a reformed sadistic bully who is trying to master his old negative ways by being a Buddhist monk. Of course when pressured, he snaps and causes all kinds of chaos.
Maybe your character can worship Irori in an attempt to master himself and 'be more lawful.'
I'd make him a Bard or something who is a 'monk'. Maybe take the Deific Obedience feat and try really hard to not be a jerk all the time. Wrestling with contradicting impulses could be really fun to play.


@Taku

What is so inherently evil in sadism? Is it not possible to be a good person, but also be a violent person. A person with self control can be inherently violent, yet channel it into healthy ways.

For example, imagine the character as a monk. He loves violence. He loves inflicting pain, and so he channels that into his martial arts. He's not going to run around beating random people, but when someone steps up to challenge him, he will hurt them. The other person understands this, the nature of their challenge is violent. He doesn't have to kill them, or torture them, to get his fix. The violence and the pain inflicted as part of the fight can be more than enough.


The original post was talking about a character with a psychiatric DISORDER, not some one who has total control (although if they were sadistic and had total control then would possibly exhibit the behaviours of a sociopath...)


That was a question about why is sadism inherently evil. The character I detailed could be considered good, despite sadistic tendencies.


Yeah, I have to say as a player, I'd be a lot more comfortable with someone playing a pop-culture sadist in a game with me than someone playing a character with actual Sadistic Personality Disorder.

The sadist can focus his need to hurt on the bad guys and be basically normal and trustable the rest of the time. The one with the disorder is going to have to be controlled constantly and his disorder is going to turn on the party. He can't help it.

Grand Lodge

The struggle is actually a thing I look forward to RP.

Complexity in personality is what inspires me immerse myself into character.

Of course, I know how to keep just that little bit of metagame to avoid ruining everyone's fun at the table, but work it into the personality structure of possible actions by said PC.

The motivations for the "dark half" of this PC's actions is already well defined, but the motivations of "light half" is not entirely clear yet.

I have been given some very good advice here on handling the "dark half" of this PC's personality, but although that is quite helpful, I am trying to focus on the "light half" now, to create some semblance of balance.

If it some how helps, I am looking to create this for a Illusion-focused Mesmerist.


@ Redjack_rose
We're talking about the personality disorder, not the basic disorder.
What is so bad about sadism? In moderation, nothing. In character defining amounts, lots.
The word you are looking for is "sublimate."

There is a massive difference between a sadist and someone with the personality disorder. Do not confuse the two. They are similar, but one is much, much worse.

When you read or see your generic BDSM sadist, that is the healthy kind, but that dude who is locked up for life for torturing people people to death, that is the personality disorder type.

Can you control it? Yes. Therapy, channeling it into other tings, and other activities that let you remain in control will help, but that veneer will break over and over.

Is sadism evil? Well, since you didn't quote what you are referring to in my post, I can't answer your question in context. Good job.
In D&D terms, enjoying the suffering of others tends towards evil, but you are welcome to believe whatever you want.

Shadow Lodge

Re: 'the good half'
I think that the key to balancing the conflict is going to be found in their backstory. Being motivated to moderate, suppress, or neutralize the sadistic traits needs some sort of foundation.

Did the character have a 'come to Iomedae' moment and get saved?
Did the character take things too far and discover the feeling of regret?
Has the character's behavior resulted in negative personal consequences sufficient to motivate change?
Are they being compelled to change by some outside force/actor?

I see three categories that might be useful:
Narcissism as a primary motivation (seeking to perfect/tame their weaker 'base' impulses and immaturity, pursuing an ideal, despising their former inability to perceive the harm in their actions, self-obsession)
Remorse as a primary motivation (guilt over past wrongdoing leading to covering up negative traits, hostility directed inward, hiding negative impulses from others)
Purification/healing as a primary motivation (recognition of the harm their behavior causes and a desire to suppress or eliminate 'bad' traits)

I'd say that the likelihood of success is weakest with narcissistic motives and strongest with purification/healing motives.

Threat of more serious consequences is a decent motivator for change. Maybe they were visited by a herald of a powerful deity (good or evil) that informed them that continued sadistic behavior would not be tolerated.
Extrinsic motivation is easier to quantify and RP.

Maybe they had a moment where they realized why they've been acting this way for so long (abusive parents, repeated personal failures, abandonment, anxiety, etc.) and wish to change their ways. Old habits die hard though.
I think that a genuine desire for meaningful change is a bigger challenge to RP.

Being a Mesmerist is going to be a great fit for this character concept. They have some serious weapons at their disposal for acting like unbelievable jerks to other people. The temptation to use their abilities to sadistic ends will be a constant struggle.


Interestingly the character could have become a mesmerist looking for a way to control, restrain, or remove the urges. That gives a more 'positive' reason for an otherwise terrible choice (given the temptations).

I'm a bit vague on the bleaching - is that going to be a threat if the character locks itself down too much?

Grand Lodge

This is some very good stuff.

I am going to take a moment to take some of it in, but don't let that stop you.

Sovereign Court

blackbloodtroll wrote:
What are some good motivations, for someone with such a condition?

The same as anyone else.

That seems to be like asking why an alcoholic would eat healthy foods. It's still the right thing to do, even if he has instincts which tell him to do the wrong things, that doesn't mean that he has to follow through on said instincts.

Grand Lodge

Not exactly.

The "right thing to do" is not always the same for everyone, and when the results vary so wildly, it's not fair to compare with something like "eating healthy".

Sovereign Court

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Not exactly.

The "right thing to do" is not always the same for everyone, and when the results vary so wildly, it's not fair to compare with something like "eating healthy".

I didn't mean for my metaphor to be taken so far.

All I meant was that - assuming that the character mostly suppresses their sadism (since they're not evil) - the two are pretty unrelated.


I don't quite see what your plan is. While motivations can matter, alignment is mostly what you do. If you don't do evil, you aren't, while if you do, you are. (Lets just ignore the whole how many wrongs can be erased by a right for now.)

Similarly, while motivations can matter in how you play a character, for the most part you are playing what they do, not why they do it, or whatever internal struggles they have to make to come to a particular situation. Both alignment and playing a character are what you choose to have your character do, not why they do it.

So if your character is a Sadist, but doesn't do sadistic things, then other than yourself, who would even know (or care for that matter?)

I could see roleplaying an evil sadist (perhaps even one who wished they weren't such a bad person) but I really don't see the point of playing a sadist is doesn't do really bad things.

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