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Disclaimer: Based on this post by John Compton, I decided to attempt an argument for why the Eldritch Archer should be added to the Additional Resources in Pathfinder Society. As someone who plays more than one Magus in PFS as well as a ranged Eldritch Knight, this post should be contextualized as having a significant bias. In fact, my intent is to play an Eldritch Archer in PFS were it to be allowed, so please understand that by reading my feedback and analyzing my perspective I am not entirely sure I meet the requirements of making a reason argument “in good faith.” That being said, I welcome any and all constructive feedback and discussion surround the Eldritch Archer and PFS.
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What is the Eldritch Archer Archetype?
The Eldritch Archer is an archetype for the Magus class that trades its melee focused abilities for abilities centered around ranged combat. The following is a summary of the changes that the Eldritch Archer archetype makes to the base Magus Class
- Gains Perception as a class skill, but loses Use Magic Device as a class skill
- Using their Arcane Pool, they can add Distance, Nimble Shot, and Returning as weapon properties but they lose the ability to add Dancing, Keen, or Vorpal.
- They gain an Arcane Bond, however it cannot be used to cast a spell once per day and it must be a ranged weapon. Additionally, holding the arcane bond does not prevent them from providing somatic components for spells.
- They gain the ability to perform Spell Combat with ranged weapons, but they lose the ability to perform Spell Combat with melee weapons. However, an Eldritch Archer loses the ability to take a penalty on their attacks in order to gain a bonus on concentration checks to cast defensively.
- They gain Ranged Spellstrike, which allows them to make a ranged weapon attack whenever they cast a spell that call for a ranged attack roll.
- They also gain Focusing Spellstrike, but as a level 16th ability it should have no impact on Pathfinder Society play.
How does the Eldritch Archer differ from a normal Magus in typical play?
- In my opinion, the largest change in playstyle will come from when the Eldritch Archer chooses to cast their spells. A standard Magus typically casts their touch spells without fear of wasting them as missed attack results in a held charge. However, the Eldritch Archer throws away their spells on a missed attack, meaning that the decision to use a spell slot should hold significantly more weight (the only exceptions to this are cantrips, more on that later).
- As ranged combat tends to be feat intensive, the Eldritch Archer will tend to focus on many of the standard archery feats, these include Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Deadly Aim, Clustered Shots, Rapid Shot, and Many Shot. In PFS, a standard non-human Magus will have access to 7 feats (1st, 3rd, 5th, 5th*, 7th, 9th, 11th, and 11th*).
- The Eldritch Archer does have an advantage over other archers in that they can use Spell Combat as a stand-in for Rapid Shot. By using Spell Combat with a canrip (Acid Splash or Ray of Frost) the Eldritch Archer can gain the extra attack that would normally be given by Rapid Shot at the same -2 penalty (with a bonus ~1.5 damage!). Whether or not this is a benefit for the Eldritch Archers is debatable, as Rapid Shot is still a prerequisite for Manyshot and Snap Shot. Many players focused on damage will try and get Manyshot as soon as possible, but because the Magus is 3/4 BAB the earliest an Eldritch Magus in PFS could take Manyshot would be 9th level (or 8th level through retraining), and even then it competes with the Clustered Shots feat. In my conversations with other players, we predict that many players will avoid Rapid Shot (or take it at 11th) and keep the feat slot open for a metamagic feat, Spell Penetration, Improved Initiative, or some other utility feat.
- In terms of attribute allocation, the Eldritch Archer will not typically differ much from a Dex Magus. Dexterity is still the primary attribute, however an Eldritch Archer will never get access to adding their Dexterity to damage, thus I predict many Eldritch Archers will have 12-14 Strength in order to take advantage of a composite bow (similar to any DEX Magus that leverages Power Attack). There is an argument that Con could be lowered due to no longer being a frontline fighter, however I don’t think there would be too much of a difference due to much of the Magus’ survivability coming from spells anyways (shield, mirror image, etc.).
How does the Eldritch Archer compare to other common PFS archers?
- While the Magus is a ¾ BAB class, they do have the ability to increase the enhancement of their weapon through their arcane pool which in theory makes this a non-issue. I use the word “theory” because I have not yet played an Eldritch Archer, and it is entirely possible that they are forced to use Spell Recall more often due to wasted spells.
- In terms of the closest match in PFS play, I believe that the Zen Archer is probably the closest comparison. The Zen Archer has Flurry of Blows to compete with Spell Combat, their ki pool can be used for bonus attacks (in the same vein as Arcane Pool bonus weapon damage), and they receive a series of bonus feats to complement their ranged combat ability. There are many unique aspects to the Zen Archer, however I believe that between Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Perfect Strike, and Ki Arrows they are able to make up much of the damage that the Eldritch Archer has access to through spells albeit in a much more steady format rather than in directed bursts.
What are some reasons for why the Eldritch Archer should not be allowed in PFS?
- If accept Intensified Shocking Grasp as the standard Magus build, then there is a pretty good chance that Intensified Snowball would be a prevailing Eldritch Archer build. By starting combat with Spell Combat and a 10d6+1d8+STR ranged attack in addition to standard arrows sounds pretty scary. However, when you compare this to a Bladed Dash full round attack with by Keen Scimitar, I don’t think the numbers are going to be that far off, especially when the standard Magus can follow up with an Intensified Shocking Grasp the following round that can be doubled by rolling 15-20.
- I have heard that stacking the Eldritch Archer archetype with currently accessible Magus archetypes can be problematic, specifically the Hexcrafter, Kensai, and the Mymidarch.
Hexcrafter: Gaining the ability to cast hexes from range in addition to using a bow could become problematic. While I believe that it will be easier to create a successful Hexcrafter with the Eldritch Archer archetype due to the nature of remaining further away from enemies with using hexes, since casting a hex uses a standard action I believe that using Spell Combat will typically be more favorable than losing a turn to debuff an enemy. Again, this is my belief and I am sure that there are many who disagree. For those individuals who would chose to overlap both, I see little reason to prevent tem from doing so, especially since they will be trading Spell Recall (their primary method for recovering those missed spells) to do so.Kensai: I think the main draw for those looking to combine the Kensai with the Eldritch Archer is the fact that their loss of armor is hardly a penalty to a ranged character. In fact, gaining access to Fighter feats as well as Weapon Focus is highly compelling. However, the Kensai has diminished spellcasting and loses Spell Recall which is incredibly penalizing for the Eldritch Archer. In my opinion these penalties far outweigh the gains from Kensai, as access to Fighter feats is hardly broken especially when so many feats have already been allocated to the archery tree.
Myrmidarch: Given that the Eldritch Archer already has access to Ranged Spellstrike, the Myrmidarch provides increased static damage through Weapon Training, access to increased survivability through Armor Training, access to fighter feats, and the ability to cast touch spells from range without new Arcana. All of this comes at the cost of Spell Recall and Diminished Spellcasting. I think it is fair to say that this could be a significant increase in static damage, but I think that the build ends up looking a lot like a Fighter archer with an Arcane Pool and less feats. Additionally, I believe that the Eldritch Archer was intended to replace Greater Spell combat as it states "Whenever he uses the spell combat ability, his concentration check bonus equals double the amount of the attack penalty taken." and since the Eldritch Archer is incapable of taking a penalty to their attack roll in favor of a bonus on their concentration check, I suspect we may see errata around this ability(thus preventing Myrmidarch/Eldritch Archer stacking) in the near future.
Why should the Eldritch Archer be allowed in PFS?
- An Eldritch Archer has a much lower critical threat range. Many Magi tend to favor the Scimitar or the Rapier because they start at 18-20 and can be made Keen. While Crossbows are available as 19-20s, they are incapable of being made keen. Longbows do have a x3 modifier, but the main source of damage from a Magus critical strike comes from his spells (of which damage can only ever be doubled).
- As mentioned before, the Eldritch Archer will throw away more spells than a standard Magus due to their inability to hold a charge on a miss. This is a fairly significant loss in power from the standard Magus.
- The Eldritch Archer fills a slot that has been long sought after, the Arcane Archer. While there is an archetype called exactly that currently accessible in PFS, it is not accessible until 8th level and even then it is very restrictive. I personally have a fantasy of using my Arcane Pool to weave fire and lightning into my arrows and follow up my attacks by firing Elemental Rays from a magic bow. As archery is mostly comprised from a set of core feats, it can be applied to most classes quite easily, however because Spellstrike and Spell Combat specify melee weapons, the fantasy of the ranged Magus (the class designed to blend martial prowess and arcane sorcery) remains unattainable.
Summary
- The Eldritch Archer is just a Magus that doesn’t need to move around as much, has a much lower critical range, and will throw away more spells per day due to missed attacks. While the class can definitely be powerful, it is no more powerful than a standard Magus, however it does manage to deliver a very different fantasy.
If you have made it this far, then I thank you for taking the time to read this post. Please feel free to post your thoughts and/or any feedback that you have for me.
EDIT: Added a section for Archetype stacking, split up some of the reasons it should be allowed, and added a summary.
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Disclaimer: Based on this post by John Compton, I decided to attempt an argument for why the Eldritch Archer should be added to the Additional Resources in Pathfinder Society. As someone who plays more than one Magus in PFS as well as a ranged Eldritch Knight, this post should be contextualized as having a significant bias. In fact, my intent is to play an Eldritch Archer in PFS were it to be allowed, so please understand that by reading my feedback and analyzing my perspective I am not entirely sure I meet the requirements of making a reason argument “in good faith.” That being said, I welcome any and all constructive feedback and discussion surround the Eldritch Archer and PFS.
I consider an "argument in good faith" one that is not predicated on the other party's ignorance, incompetence, or other intrinsic fallibility (i.e. especially snide, sarcastic, or insulting in its premise). Your argument is entirely in good faith--no matter the acknowledged bias--and I appreciate your attention to detail.
It's late here, and my intention is to wait at least until I am back at work before making any decision on this front. I also encourage the community to weigh in.
Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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Nice post, but there are a couple or issues:
A kensai spends his life focusing his training and meditation into a rapturous perfection of the use of a single weapon, which is usually but not always a sword, channeling his arcane might through it in a dizzying and deadly dance beyond the abilities of even the greatest of mundane warriors.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency
A kensai is proficient in simple weapons and in a single martial or exotic melee weapon of his choice. A kensai is not proficient with armor or shields and suffers normal arcane spell failure chance when casting magus spells while armored.
What you wrote about the Hexcrafter is correct, but I would like to add that with the right feats a melee focussed magus can deliver a hex with after a successful attack with an unarmed strike (as a swift action). The ranged magus has no such option, and since hexes require you to be within 30 ft. of your target, chances are pretty high that you will find yourself in melee combat after using a hex.
After playing two ranged myrmidarch magus characters for quite some time, I can attest, that running out of spells can be a real problem, and that problem will become even more obvious with spell combat. Even with my focus on ranged attacks I found myself regularly in melee and had to use spell combat with a backup weapon . the eldritch archer gives up that ability (and even if it did not, since I have hold my arcane bond bow, I will usually lack the free hand to use spell combat).
The comparison with a Zen Archer is rather unfortunate, since they can actually ignore quite a number of the issues associated with using a ranged weapon, their bonus feats even give them early access to Improved Precise shot (difficult to get for a ¾ BAB class like the magus).
The fact, that they gain point black master at level 3 differentiates them even more, the monk can fight in melee range of another enemy, the magus has to deal with using ranged attacks and spellcasting.
Most of your other points, are dead on though, especially the loss of access to high crit range weapons, and the fact that you can’t hold touch spells if you miss.
I should be able to post some sample character builds for comparison later.
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I just ran down the OP's list and put down my thoughts on each topic. Note that I am not saying this archetype should be banned as I personally believe the more allowed options is better unless there is an extreme circumstance. I don't believe that to be the case here but there is no doubt in my mind this is one of the best Magus archetypes ever printed.
They gain an Arcane Bond.
Free 50% off costed weapon.
Additionally, holding the arcane bond does not prevent them from providing somatic components for spells. She doesn't need a hand free for ranged spell combat.
Magus can now use metamagic rods without workarounds. Hold the rod and bow, cast the spell, then drop the rod as a free action and hold your bow again.
However, the Eldritch Archer throws away their spells on a missed attack, meaning that the decision to use a spell slot should hold significantly more weight.
Only for ranged attack spells. When they get the ability to deliver touch spells these can hold the charge.
As ranged combat tends to be feat intensive.
They seem to have more than enough feats especially when human. Combined with their new use of metamagic rods they no longer even need metamagic feats (besides the one you use for your metamagic reduction cost traits).
Use Spell Combat as a stand-in for Rapid Shot
Because both give a -2 penalty on all attacks using a cantrip is strictly superior here. You don't spend a feat and use an infinite resource.
Stat Allocation stuff
I suspect a human magus will do a point buy similar to below and use their 4th and 8th level increases to DEX and INT:
STR 10
DEX 17 or 19
CON 12
INT 17 or 19
WIS 7
CHR 7
Archetype Stacking:
Hexcrafters will take the Flight hex and be flying ranged magi starting at level 5.
Kensai gets martial related abilities further fixing feat requirements. It's armorless traits are probably at their best on an archer. Diminished spellcasting is generally circumvented by the use of cantrips for attacks or the use of pearl of powers (which will be plentiful because metamagic snowballs are very good.) Pearl of Power use won't be limited to just kensai builds obviously.
In response to Sebastian. I suspect Kensai Archers will use their simple weapon proficiency to use 19-20 crit crossbows or find a way to get other proficiency.
Myrmidarch gives Eldritch Archers their level 9 arcana for free and now with no range limitation. Just like the Kensai cantrips and Pearl of Power 1 reduce the costs of diminished casting. Weapon Training and Armor Training are each better than feats and scale as you level into seeker.
At 11 Myrmidarch lets Eldritch Archer use multiple touch attacks. This is similar to the ability Eldritch Archer recieved at level 1 but now opens up even more options.
It also clearly doesn't effect improved and greater spell combat and there really isn't any reason to suspect errata.
Final Thoughts:
They will have less crit range than a typical magus. 19-20 will probably be the new standard for them using non-bows (or 19-20 with a certain keen bow).
At 10th level Magus will take Named Bullet from the Wizard casting list and deal devastating amounts of damage on their auto-critical attack.
I believe the holding the charge issues will not significantly hold back Magi who either use Pearl of Power 1s and/or are Myrmidarchs who use touch spells (which can be held).
As someone who has an optimized early entry Eldritch Knight / Arcane Archer I disagree that it offers something already available (beyond the fact that you simply can't create my character anymore.) I have to use the casting time of the spell to deliver my attack, normally a standard action. This archetype gets to full attack while still casting their spell. I can't describe how massive a boon getting to cast a Named Bullet and attack on the same turn is with spell combat. Arcane Archers do get area spells into their shots. I doubt Magi will take the prestige class for that seeing how good they already are on their own but it is a possibility for them. At extremely high seeker levels of play they will probably do so just for antimagic field imbued arrows.
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The magus is hardly bad. Having something as far above two weapon fighting (which IS a terrible fighting style) as archery is above the magus is in the "why on earth wouldn't you do this?" territory. This looks good enough to be the only archer and the only magus.
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I think the only real contender with the Eldritch Archer magus is a Butterfly Sting magus who crit fishes on a 15-20 and then when they know they will have a critical passes it off to their shocking grasp attack. That one will still be a thing because of how effective it is.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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Two versions of each build, the level 5 version assumes about 9000 GP (and doesn’t list all the small items PFS characters tend to acquire) and 20PP (without PP purchases), the level 9 versions assume 45.000 GP and 36 PP.
Unnamed Hero
Human magus (eldritch archer) 5 (Pathfinder Player Companion: Heroes of the Street 11, Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Magic 9)
NG Medium humanoid (human)
Init +5; Senses Perception +8
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Defense
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AC 18, touch 14, flat-footed 14 (+4 armor, +4 Dex)
hp 43 (5d8+15)
Fort +7, Ref +7, Will +7
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee mwk cold iron spiked gauntlet +5 (1d4+1)
Ranged +1 composite longbow +10 (1d8+2/×3)
Special Attacks arcane pool (+2, 4 points), magus arcana (spell blending [1 spell][UM]), spell combat, spell recall, spellstrike
Magus (Eldritch Archer) Spells Prepared (CL 5th; concentration +7)
. . 2nd—ablative barrier[UC], flurry of snowballs (DC 14), glitterdust (DC 14)
. . 1st—gravity bow[APG], shield, snowball (DC 13), snowball (DC 13), warding weapon[UC]
. . 0 (at will)—acid splash, detect magic, disrupt undead, prestidigitation
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Statistics
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Str 13, Dex 20, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 10
Base Atk +3; CMB +4; CMD 19
Feats Intensified Spell[APG], Iron Will, Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Weapon Focus (longbow)
Traits deadeye bowman, magical lineage
Skills Acrobatics +6, Climb +5, Intimidate +4, Knowledge (arcana) +8, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +6, Knowledge (planes) +6, Perception +8, Ride +7, Spellcraft +10, Swim +4
Languages Common, Elven, Undercommon
SQ ranged spell combat, ranged spellstrike, ranged weapon bond
Combat Gear pearl of power (1st level) (3); Other Gear chain shirt, +1 composite longbow (+1 Str), mwk cold iron spiked gauntlet, belt of incredible dexterity +2, cloak of resistance +1, 50 gp
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Tracked Resources
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Arcane Pool +2 (4/day) (Su) - 0/4
Pearl of power (1st level, 3/day) - 0/3
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Special Abilities
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Arcane Pool +2 (4/day) (Su) Infuse own power into a held weapon, granting enhancement bonus or selected item powers.
Deadeye Bowman When using a longbow, your target is denied the soft cover AC bonus from one creature.
Intensified Spell You can cast a spell that can exceed its normal damage die cap by 5 (if you have the caster level to reach beyond that cap).
Magical Lineage (Snowball) A chosen spell counts as 1 level lower when metamagic feats are applied to it.
Point-Blank Shot +1 to attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at up to 30 feet.
Precise Shot You don't get -4 to hit when shooting or throwing into melee.
Ranged Spell Combat (Ex) Must use ranged weapon for spell combat.
Ranged Spellstrike (Su) As a full rd action, ranged spells can be combined with ranged attacks.
Ranged Weapon Bond (- Custom / magic weapon - [Str +1]) (Ex) Must have bonded object to cast spells, doesn't interfere with somatic components.
Spell Combat (Ex) Use a weapon with one hand at -2 and cast a spell with the other.
Spell Recall (Su) Spend your Arcane Pool to recall spells you have already cast.
Spellstrike (Su) Deliver touch spells as part of a melee attack.
Hero Lab and the Hero Lab logo are Registered Trademarks of LWD Technology, Inc. Free download at http://www.wolflair.com
Pathfinder® and associated marks and logos are trademarks of Paizo Inc.®, and are used under license.
If the character has advance warning, she can buff herself with gravity bow and shield. In combat the magus has to decide how to allocate her arcane pool bonus, depending on the enemy variety, a +3 bow might be the best choice (especially when fighting outsiders with a plethora of 5 point resistances). Acid spash is your option when you don’t want to expend spells or you are out of spells, snowball, by virtue of beeing the only ranged attack spell that deals damage is your attack spell of choice.
As usually elemental resistances and immunities will negatively affect your damage output, but until level 9 where you can get access to the new reach spellstrike magus arcana (which requires level 9), you really don’t have many options when it comes to damage types (there is snowball and scorching ray, but 4d6 fire damage isn’t a very attractive option for your level 2 spell slot at this time.
Unnamed Hero
Human magus (eldritch archer) 9 (Pathfinder Player Companion: Heroes of the Street 11, Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Magic 9)
NG Medium humanoid (human)
Init +5; Senses Perception +12
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Defense
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AC 26, touch 17, flat-footed 21 (+8 armor, +2 deflection, +5 Dex, +1 natural)
hp 75 (9d8+27)
Fort +9, Ref +9, Will +9
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee mwk cold iron spiked gauntlet +9/+4 (1d4+2)
Ranged +3 composite longbow +16/+11 (1d8+5/×3)
Special Attacks arcane pool (+3, 6 points), improved spell combat, magus arcana (enduring blade[UC], spell blending [1 spell][UM]; reach spellstrike (heroes of the streets), spell recall, spellstrike
Magus (Eldritch Archer) Spells Prepared (CL 9th; concentration +11)
. . 3rd—dispel magic, flame arrow, keen edge
. . 2nd—ablative barrier[UC], flurry of snowballs (DC 14), frigid touch[UM], frigid touch[UM], glitterdust (DC 14)
. . 1st—gravity bow[APG], shield, snowball (DC 13), snowball (DC 13), vanish[APG] (DC 13), warding weapon[UC]
. . 0 (at will)—acid splash, detect magic, disrupt undead, prestidigitation
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Statistics
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Str 14, Dex 20, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 10
Base Atk +6; CMB +8; CMD 25
Feats Deadly Aim, Intensified Spell[APG], Iron Will, Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Weapon Focus (longbow), Weapon Versatility
Traits deadeye bowman, magical lineage
Skills Acrobatics +8, Climb +8, Intimidate +4, Knowledge (arcana) +14, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +8, Knowledge (planes) +7, Perception +12, Ride +9, Spellcraft +14, Swim +7
Languages Common, Elven, Undercommon
SQ knowledge pool, medium armor, ranged spell combat, ranged spellstrike, ranged weapon bond
Combat Gear adamantine durable arrow (20), pearl of power (1st level) (3); Other Gear +2 mithral agile breastplate[APG], +3 composite longbow (+2 Str), mwk cold iron spiked gauntlet, amulet of natural armor +1, belt of incredible dexterity +2, bracers of archery, lesser, cloak of resistance +1, ring of protection +2, 50 gp
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Tracked Resources
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Adamantine arrow, durable - 0/20
Arcane Pool +3 (6/day) (Su) - 0/6
Pearl of power (1st level, 3/day) - 0/3
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Special Abilities
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Arcane Pool +3 (6/day) (Su) Infuse own power into a held weapon, granting enhancement bonus or selected item powers.
Deadeye Bowman When using a longbow, your target is denied the soft cover AC bonus from one creature.
Deadly Aim -2/+4 Trade a penalty to ranged attacks for a bonus to ranged damage.
Enduring Blade (Su) 1 Arcane Pool: Duration of enchants to magus weapon increase to 1 minute per level.
Improved Spell Combat (Ex) Use a weapon with one hand at -2 and cast a spell with the other.
Intensified Spell You can cast a spell that can exceed its normal damage die cap by 5 (if you have the caster level to reach beyond that cap).
Knowledge Pool (Su) Spend Arcane Pool points to prepare a magus spell that is not in your spellbook for 1 day.
Magical Lineage (Snowball) A chosen spell counts as 1 level lower when metamagic feats are applied to it.
Point-Blank Shot +1 to attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at up to 30 feet.
Precise Shot You don't get -4 to hit when shooting or throwing into melee.
Ranged Spell Combat (Ex) Must use ranged weapon for spell combat.
Ranged Spellstrike (Su) As a full rd action, ranged spells can be combined with ranged attacks.
Ranged Weapon Bond (- Custom / magic weapon - [Str +2]) (Ex) Must have bonded object to cast spells, doesn't interfere with somatic components.
Spell Recall (Su) Spend your Arcane Pool to recall spells you have already cast.
Spellstrike (Su) Deliver touch spells as part of a melee attack.
Weapon Versatility Weapon w/ Weapon Focus: shift grip to alter damage to B/P/S (free act.).
Hero Lab and the Hero Lab logo are Registered Trademarks of LWD Technology, Inc. Free download at http://www.wolflair.com
Pathfinder® and associated marks and logos are trademarks of Paizo Inc.®, and are used under license.
The level 9 version starts to benefit from her arcane bond a lot more than the level 4 version, since she saves about 9000 GP, since she “crafts” her arcane bond at half cost. Of course this “only” ends up as a +1 to attack and damage rolls.
Access to keen edges allow the eldritch archer to improve her thread range, and flaming arrows potentially allows the magus to increase her damage output, but since it is elemental damage, it might be utterly insignificant in one scenario and very efficient in the next.
Snowball is thanks to magical knack still the attack spell of choice, but scorching ray, shocking grasp, frigid touch and other touch spells become attractive options thanks to the (already PFS legal reach spellstrike arcana).
Damage output outside of spell striking touch spells, is not all that great, especially since options like deadly aim are a somewhat bad choice, when you use spell combat.
Since she always want’s to use spell combat, rapid shot, manyshot and clustered shot usually aren’t an option, but Weapon Versatility should help to overcome some types of DR (just imagine that the archer holds the bow sideways to deal slashing damage, and reverses the arrow to deal blunt damage … ).
With access to keen edge, the Eldritch Archer has a crit range of 19-20 for a limited amount of time, but the melee magus with a keen scimitar (either through their arcane pool class feature or by just buying a +1 keen scimitar) will have a significantly higher chance to crit with a spell.
In the ideal situation (excluding haste) is where you had the time to cast gravity bow and lead blades ahead of time and buff improve your bow to a +5 weapon (to increase your chance to successfully deliver your spells) with +1d6 elemental damage on top.
Using spell combat to cast a touch spell and deadly aim we end up with:
+5 flaming composite longbow: +14/+14/+9 2d6+11+1d6 fire and a 10d6 snowball for good measure, if the first attack hits. Snowball (yeah the spell is quite broken thanks to the whole issue of conjuration spells and SR) is the critical part of the attack routine, and enemies who are immune to cold damage, force you to switch to another damage source.
If you encounter alignment based damage reduction, or DR/- your damage output will be severely reduced, as you will have to rely on consumables or attack for severely reduced damage.
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If I make a sample build and post it should I use just the Eldritch Archer or stack it with something like I would probably do with an actual character?
Edit: Eh I'll just be back with something I would make. I'll follow the level 5 and 9 snapshots. Level 10 is where it get crazy anyway with Named Bullet.
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So Eldritch Archer is clearly a powerful archetype...
Renlar's argument for including it seem to boil down to "well in some circumstances it's not quite as powerful as some of the campaign's most powerful options."
That's not a compelling argument to me.
Archery is arguably the strongest combat style in Pathfinder. You can full attack round after round while leveraging different arrows to help with a variety of DR.
Magus has really great burst damage and the ability to buff or cast utility spells by giving up a single attack rather than a standard action. For an Eldritch archer this is even more awesome than normal as they are less likely to be threatened
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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I just ran down the OP's list and put down my thoughts on each topic. Note that I am not saying this archetype should be banned as I personally believe the more allowed options is better unless there is an extreme circumstance. I don't believe that to be the case here but there is no doubt in my mind this is one of the best Magus archetypes ever printed.
They gain an Arcane Bond.Free 50% off costed weapon.
Additionally, holding the arcane bond does not prevent them from providing somatic components for spells. She doesn't need a hand free for ranged spell combat.Magus can now use metamagic rods without workarounds. Hold the rod and bow, cast the spell, then drop the rod as a free action and hold your bow again.
However, the Eldritch Archer throws away their spells on a missed attack, meaning that the decision to use a spell slot should hold significantly more weight.Only for ranged attack spells. When they get the ability to deliver touch spells these can hold the charge.
As ranged combat tends to be feat intensive.They seem to have more than enough feats especially when human. Combined with their new use of metamagic rods they no longer even need metamagic feats (besides the one you use for your metamagic reduction cost traits).
Use Spell Combat as a stand-in for Rapid ShotBecause both give a -2 penalty on all attacks using a cantrip is strictly superior here. You don't spend a feat and use an infinite resource.
Stat Allocation stuffI suspect a human magus will do a point buy similar to below and use their 4th and 8th level increases to DEX and INT:
STR 10
DEX 17 or 19
CON 12
INT 17 or 19
WIS 7
CHR 7Archetype Stacking:Hexcrafters will take the Flight hex and be flying ranged magi starting at level 5.
Kensai gets martial related abilities further fixing feat requirements. It's armorless traits are probably at their best on an archer....
The arcane bond weapon is a boon, but only really gets relevant later, and fame limitations are a real factor here. The downside, is that, at least at the early levels not having access to your arcane bond makes spellcasting quite tough.
And of course depending on your local are, if you have a number of sunder happy GMs in your are ( I know of at least one who has sundered gunslinger weapons several times), this downside can become quite real.The issue with magus character have with metamagic rods comes from the spell combat restriction, and ranged spell combat modifies it with the following text " Instead of a light or one-
handed melee weapon, an eldritch archer must use a
ranged weapon for spell combat. She doesn’t need a free
hand for ranged spell combat". The word "use" seems to imply that you actually have to properly wield the weapon, which is only really an option with a one handed crossbow or firearm. Those weapons have a feat tax associated with them, which is a factor.
The ranged weapon bond has the " Holding her bonded
item does not prevent the eldritch archer from providing
somatic components for her spells." bit, but that is pretty much required so spell combat works.
So you are correct, you can use metamagic rods, but it has limits.
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Regarding losing spells and touch spells, the last sentences of ranged spellstrike seems to prevent you from keeping the charge from touch range spells:" Unused missiles, rays, or effects remaining at the end of the eldritch archer’s turn are wasted. This ability
alters spellstrike."
Spells like frostbite and chill touch should work (but limited to the amount of attacks you can deliver in a round), but spells like elemental touch would not work since it is a personal spell.
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Kensai gets very little from the archetype when not wielding his chosen melee weapon, and since you give up the ability to do spell combat with melee weapons... the only real option seems to be a thrown weapon and doesn't seem like an awesome option.
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The Myrmidarch ranged spellstrike, can only spellstrike ranged spells, my currently legal myrmidarch magus does have to take the reach spellstrike arcane (and since she has "ranged spellstrike" actually can take it without the eldritch archer. ^^
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The Myrmidarch ranged spellstrike and the eldritch archer ranged spellstrike seem to exactly the same, when it comes to spells like scorching ray, if anything the myrmidarch version is worse.
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I think the disconnect regarding the myrmidarch ranged spell strike ability comes from the fact that the ability does not mention that you lose the ranged touch spell. I assume that this bit is covered by the general rules regarding ranged touch attacks, if you miss with a scorching ray it is gone, if your miss with a shocking grasp you retain it (spellstrike seems to be just another delivery method)
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I have to admit, that I don't really see the allure of named bullet, there are quite a number of other options for my single 4th level spell slot at that point (not to mention, that to pull this off at level 10 you need to retrain a magus arcana).
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Additionally, holding the arcane bond does not prevent them from providing somatic components for spells. She doesn't need a hand free for ranged spell combat.Magus can now use metamagic rods without workarounds. Hold the rod and bow, cast the spell, then drop the rod as a free action and hold your bow again.
A bow is a two handed weapon. You can't wield a bow and a metamagic rod at the same time (without another appendage such as a tail). Normally you wouldn't even be able to cast a spell while wielding a bow, but the Eldritch Archer exception you quoted makes that possible. It doesn't further allow for holding a metamagic rod as well.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16
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I appreciate you took the time to make this argument. It's very clear you have a lot of passion for the idea of a ranged magus. I also love the magus and wanted a good ranged archetype for years. However, this argument has a number of significant flaws that severely undermine it.
1) The argument ignores the big picture. The magus gains powerful spell/combat action economy benefits all balanced around a restriction of having to cast spells while full-attacking in melee. An Eldritch Archer throws all of those factors out the window while receiving almost no drawbacks for it. This leaves you with a class that can use all of the amazing benefits of archery and all of the amazing benefits of spells at the same time. This conists of way more than the "first round advantage" that gets talked about.
2) The argument makes faulty comparisons with the magus. The argument seems to completely overlook the massive advantage of playing a ranged magus over a melee magus. Who cares if archery is feat intensive? Plus, you can go human and pick up Precise Shot or Rapid Shot right away. Dervish Dance builds have feat sinks, too, and have to wait until 3rd level to do any respectable damage.
3) The argument makes poor comparisons with archers. Strangely, the argument actually points out that the Eldritch Archer is somewhat comparable with other archers. That's a bad thing because the Eldritch Archer can cast spells while shooting. Really, the closest comparison is an archer warpriest, but warpriests are heavily limited in what spells they can cast. The Eldritch Archer is not and has a better spell list.
4) The argument provides weak reasons why Eldritch Archer is balanced. The best arguments are:
A) Bows have lower critical range.
Not every magus is a crit-fishing Dervish Dancer, and having a less optimal weapon for crit-fishing is not a major downside to having the safety and reliable damage output of archery.
B) Ranged spells get wasted if they miss.
By itself, this is not much of a drawback, especially when ranged attack spells are balanced around this fact. In addition, the magus has plenty of tools to to mitigate the risk, such as spell recall to recover lost spells and arcane pool to enhance their weapon.
C) People want a ranged magus!
I want to play a ranged magus, too. I wanted to for years. However, I also don't want a broken archetype to get into PFS. My favorite class has already gained infamy for some content that slipped through the cracks.
Archetypes are all about making trade-offs. Trading melee for ranged is a massive boon for a class deliberately limited by range. I design free content for Pathfinder in my spare time and the topic of a ranged magus occasionally appears in the Homebrew forums. In every case, my peers and I agreed that a balanced ranged magus needs smarter design than "LET'S MAKE ALL THE MELEE-ONLY ABILITIES BE RANGED-ONLY ABILITIES!" Eldritch Archer is a poorly designed archetype. That's why it's banned from PFS.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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If I make a sample build and post it should I use just the Eldritch Archer or stack it with something like I would probably do with an actual character?
Edit: Eh I'll just be back with something I would make. I'll follow the level 5 and 9 snapshots. Level 10 is where it get crazy anyway with Named Bullet.
Good idea, I could post my current myrmidarch magus as well.
So Eldritch Archer is clearly a powerful archetype...
Renlar's argument for including it seem to boil down to "well in some circumstances it's not quite as powerful as some of the campaign's most powerful options."
That's not a compelling argument to me.
Archery is arguably the strongest combat style in Pathfinder. You can full attack round after round while leveraging different arrows to help with a variety of DR.
Magus has really great burst damage and the ability to buff or cast utility spells by giving up a single attack rather than a standard action. For an Eldritch archer this is even more awesome than normal as they are less likely to be threatened
Archery is a good combat option, if you have the class features to support it, in this case I would argue that the melee options are better.
I will post some melee builds to compare later.
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A bow is a two handed weapon. You can't wield a bow and a metamagic rod at the same time (without another appendage such as a tail). Normally you wouldn't even be able to cast a spell while wielding a bow, but the Eldritch Archer exception you quoted makes that possible. It doesn't further allow for holding a metamagic rod as well.Additionally, holding the arcane bond does not prevent them from providing somatic components for spells. She doesn't need a hand free for ranged spell combat.Magus can now use metamagic rods without workarounds. Hold the rod and bow, cast the spell, then drop the rod as a free action and hold your bow again.
Fair enough. It works with many crossbow options (which require one hand) and will work with the Hexcrafter magus who gets Prehensile Hair.
Edit:
I have to admit, that I don't really see the allure of named bullet, there are quite a number of other options for my single 4th level spell slot at that point
Things explode when you named bullet them. If a magus does this that one attack is probably on its way to 150-200 damage.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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A bow is a two handed weapon. You can't wield a bow and a metamagic rod at the same time (without another appendage such as a tail). Normally you wouldn't even be able to cast a spell while wielding a bow, but the Eldritch Archer exception you quoted makes that possible. It doesn't further allow for holding a metamagic rod as well.Additionally, holding the arcane bond does not prevent them from providing somatic components for spells. She doesn't need a hand free for ranged spell combat.Magus can now use metamagic rods without workarounds. Hold the rod and bow, cast the spell, then drop the rod as a free action and hold your bow again.
Fair enough. It works with many crossbow options (which require one hand) and will work with the Hexcrafter magus who gets Prehensile Hair.
Edit:
I have to admit, that I don't really see the allure of named bullet, there are quite a number of other options for my single 4th level spell slot at that pointThings explode when you named bullet them. If a magus does this that one attack is probably on its way to 150-200 damage.
To be fair, you need to actually activate prehensile hair ahead of time and grab that metamagic rod, and it eats up an arcana slot... and melee magus characters can use the tactic just as well.
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Named Bulllet affects a single piece of ammunition or thrown weapon, but and you can cast that spell ahead of time (especially if you take the creature type option) so the magus get's no real advantage in that case.
Of course if you want to cast it on the BBEG, and only learn during combat who the guy is, there is an advantage (the material component kinda vexes me though). I don't see the 150-200 damage though. Could you please post an example with a level X magus ?
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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I appreciate you took the time to make this argument. It's very clear you have a lot of passion for the idea of a ranged magus. I also love the magus and wanted a good ranged archetype for years. However, this argument has a number of significant flaws that severely undermine it.
1) The argument ignores the big picture. The magus gains powerful spell/combat action economy benefits all balanced around a restriction of having to cast spells while full-attacking in melee. An Eldritch Archer throws all of those factors out the window while receiving almost no drawbacks for it. This leaves you with a class that can use all of the amazing benefits of archery and all of the amazing benefits of spells at the same time. This conists of way more than the "first round advantage" that gets talked about.
2) The argument makes faulty comparisons with the magus. The argument seems to completely overlook the massive advantage of playing a ranged magus over a melee magus. Who cares if archery is feat intensive? Plus, you can go human and pick up Precise Shot or Rapid Shot right away. Dervish Dance builds have feat sinks, too, and have to wait until 3rd level to do any respectable damage.
3) The argument makes poor comparisons with archers. Strangely, the argument actually points out that the Eldritch Archer is somewhat comparable with other archers. That's a bad thing because the Eldritch Archer can cast spells while shooting. Really, the closest comparison is an archer warpriest, but warpriests are heavily limited in what spells they can cast. The Eldritch Archer is not and has a better spell list.
4) The argument provides weak reasons why Eldritch Archer is balanced. The best arguments are:
A) Bows have lower critical range.
Not every magus is a crit-fishing Dervish Dancer, and having a less optimal weapon for crit-fishing is not a major downside to having the safety and reliable damage output of archery.B) Ranged spells get wasted if they miss.
By...
You are correct, that the archetype doesn't seem to give up that much, but some of the downsides are build into the ranged touch spell rules.
I mentioned some of them above, but it is worth remembering, that a melee magus with more than one attack per round (ie level 2+) has two chances to deliver a his shocking grasp in the round that he casts it. If he doesn't deliver it then, he has several more chances in the next round, if he uses spell combat again (and cast's his spell after he attacks) with haste in the mix, it becomes even better.
The ranged magus can't benefit from this, the archetype does not point to this downside, and while pearls of power can counter the loss of the spell slot, in combat you don't want to spend the action to refresh you spell slot.
Also when using spell combat (THE class feature of the archetype) he can't benefit from rapid shot, manyshot and clustered shot. Most other archers (except those who can flurry) don't have that problem.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16
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You are correct, that the archetype doesn't seem to give up that much, but some of the downsides are build into the ranged touch spell rules.
I mentioned some of them above, but it is worth remembering, that a melee magus with more than one attack per round (ie level 2+) has two chances to deliver a his shocking grasp in the round that he casts it. If he doesn't deliver it then, he has several more chances in the next round, if he uses spell combat again (and cast's his spell after he attacks) with haste in the mix, it becomes even better.
The ranged magus can't benefit from this, the archetype does not point to this downside, and while pearls of power can counter the loss of the spell slot, in combat you don't want to spend the action to refresh you spell slot.
I already addressed this argument in my post. It's a situational drawback that's easy to mitigate and quite minor compared to the great strengths of the archetype. The magus has plenty of ways to ensure their spellstrike will hit. Arcane pool, magus arcana, other spells. And then there's spell recall. Unlike a melee magus, they also don't put themselves at risk to land these attacks. A melee magus can also lose spells by not landing their touch spells before the battle ends or by failing concentration checks. I played two magi and run a 3-year campaign with a magus PC -- it happens.
This drawback has little to no mileage in proving the Eldritch Archer isn't broken or overpowered.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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When you shoot a named bullet you are getting 3x crit damage from your weapon, 2x crit from your spell (such as snowball), and then some extra named bullet damage. It's super dead.
Yeah, but if you want to combine all that, you need two rounds, one to cast named bullet and one to cast your attack spell.
It even works with the standard magus, cast named bullet on a thrown weapon like a throwing axe, use spell combat and spellstrike any touch range spell.
If it was just ammunition, yeah the ranged magus archetypes (even the myrmidarch) would have a distinct advantage, but as written, it works for every kind of magus.
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My stat block isn't nearly as pretty but should work all the same.
Level 5 Eldritch Archer / Hexcrafter Magus
Human, 30 skill points
Point Buy
STR 10
DEX 20
CON 12
INT 17
WIS 7
CHR 7
HP: 34
Fort: 5
Ref: 6
Will: 2
INIT: +6
1 Arcane Pool (6/day, +2 bonus), Ranged Spell Combat, Feat: Point Blank Shot, Bonus Feat: Precise Shot
2 Ranged Spellstrike
3 Arcana: Arcane Accuracy, Feat: Weapon Focus Longbow
4 Hex: Flight 5min/day
5 Feat: Deadly Aim, Bonus Feat: Empower Spell
Perception as class skill
Traits: Magical Lineage Snowball, Wayang Spellhunter Snowball
Favored Class Bonus: 4/4 extra arcane pool. 1 HP.
Bab 3
Dex +5
Enhancement +3
focus +1
Deadly -1
Spell Combat -2
if:
Arcane Accuracy +3
Flying above +1
30ft +1
cant spell combat? +2
to hit: +9 to +16
damage: 1d8+5(6), 1d8+5(6)
spells per day
0 lvl: Acid Splash, Detect Magic, Open/Close, Read Magic
1st lvl: Vanish, 4 Empowered Snowball (DC 14, 7d6). (carries wands of Infernal healing, Silent Image, and others)
2nd lvl: Mirror Image, Glitterdust (DC 15), Force Anchor
Tactics: He aggressively uses his Flight hex to both position for high ground and remain out of reach of enemies.
Always uses spell combat if he can with at least Acid Splash and always uses Deadly Aim. If needed he uses Arcane Accuracy.
A normal round in combat attack line is: +14 (1d8+6, +7d6 snowball), +14 (1d8+6). AVG 46 damage and a fort save to stagger
Gear: +1 Composite Longbow, 3 Pearl of Power 1, Dusty Rose Prism Cracked, about 5k extra for other items.
At level 5 he is a pretty decent character but he's actually designed to scale into the higher levels at this point. He will start getting more bab and Deadly Aim damage and next level receives 3rd level spells. He will probably take Spell Blending for See Invisibility and Gravity Bow.
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When you shoot a named bullet you are getting 3x crit damage from your weapon, 2x crit from your spell (such as snowball), and then some extra named bullet damage. It's super dead.
Assuming a 10th level build (+3 Composite Longbow +2 Str, Point-Blank Shot) a named bullet shot is doing approximately
(1d8+6)*3+5d6*2+10 = Avg damage = 13.5+18+35+10 = 76.5. This is less than the average hp of a CR 10 monster. That uses 2 spells (one fourth level and 1 first level) and has to overcome SR (for the named bullet), DR if it's alignment, adamantine, or - and elemental resistance. If you get another 2 attacks in the full attack sequence (and hit - not guaranteed at all) your average damage jumps to 87.5 damage. Still not getting it done.
So now let's add in intensified snowball
(1d8+6)*3+10d6*2+10 = Avg damage = 13.5+18+70+10 = 111.5. Still not single shot killing the average CR 10 monster. Uses a fourth and a second level spell. On a full attack with all hits average out at 132.5 dmg - just barely killing your target on a full attack.
Finally, intensified/maximized snowball - (which requires at least 1 trait, and possibly both your daily fourth level spells, maybe 3rd and a fourth.) = (1d8+6)*3+6*10*2+10 = 161.5. Kills your average CR10 monster, uses at least one if not all your top level spells for the day
Not arguing for or against anything but I don't think named bullet is that bad.
You can add in Deadly aim for another 12 damage on the crits, or 20 on the full attack. But it still leaves you with only the maximized/intensified able to single shot a CR 10 mook. (Intensified only, will as often as not as it's just slightly above average damage, but still not quite there)
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When you shoot a named bullet you are getting 3x crit damage from your weapon, 2x crit from your spell (such as snowball), and then some extra named bullet damage. It's super dead.Yeah, but if you want to combine all that, you need two rounds, one to cast named bullet and one to cast your attack spell.
It even works with the standard magus, cast named bullet on a thrown weapon like a throwing axe, use spell combat and spellstrike any touch range spell.
If it was just ammunition, yeah the ranged magus archetypes (even the myrmidarch) would have a distinct advantage, but as written, it works for every kind of magus.
Like you said before you can prep named bullets beforehand. If you don't plan to do so an option is a lesser quicken rod for your spell. I don't even get that option on my arcane archer and he still murders the target as soon as he gets to full attack without a spell critical.
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Like you said before you can prep named bullets beforehand. If you don't plan to do so an option is a lesser quicken rod for your spell. I don't even get that option on my arcane archer and he still murders the target as soon as he gets to full attack without a spell critical.
Rod + Bow only works if you've got a prehensile appendage of some sort though. Also, lesser quicken rod won't work on named bullet it's a fourth level spell - lesser only works up to third.
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Math Stuff
I think a more normal named bullet looks something like this:
VS TOUCH AC
+5 Enhancement from pool + weapon
+6 Deadly Aim
+2 STR
+1 Precise
+2d6 Gravity Bow
That's for the Weapon damage.
Spell Damage:
1d6 Flame Arrow
+11 Named Bullet
Empowered Intensified Snowball cast from a 2nd level slot. 30d6
Total:
37d6+53 = Avg. 183 damage. (max 275)
Don't forget to finish your full attack if it isn't dead.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Minnesota—Minneapolis
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Access to keen edges allow the eldritch archer to improve her thread range, and flaming arrows potentially allows the magus to increase her damage output, but since it is elemental damage, it might be utterly insignificant in one scenario and very efficient in the next.
Keen generally doesn't work with ranged weapons and the original poster specifically said that you can't use the Arcane Pool to add Keen.
I don't see how they increase the threat range.
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Well that seems obvious, but...is that explicitly spelled out somewhere, or is it PFS only, or what?
Yes, it is just a rule for archetypes.
Keen generally doesn't work with ranged weapons
Keen Edge the spell works on any slashing or piercing weapon or 50 pieces of ammunition. There is also a Keen Bow on a chronicle sheet.
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Assuming a 10th level build (+3 Composite Longbow +2 Str, Point-Blank Shot) a named bullet shot is doing approximately...
You might want to look up and start your comparison with the 9th level build posted. As Ragoz posted, quite likely to have a +3 bow to start, +5, +elemental with arcane pool. So no DR at all most likely. Certainly better than +6 to damage at level 10.
For myself... Why on earth does this archetype get Arcane Bond for free? Crazy.
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I don't think any single part of the archetype is that crazy it just feels like the whole combined package is pretty strong. Right down to getting perception as a class skill (arguably the best class skill.)
You're right about the arcane bond. One of big draws of getting to make a wizard arcane archer was the bonded object. In just a couple levels I'll be buying my +10 bonded weapon at about a 100,000 gold discount. A magus doesn't need to buy something so excessive because they can already add bonuses but it just goes to show how powerful the bond is and how it can't be discounted.
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Well that seems obvious, but...is that explicitly spelled out somewhere, or is it PFS only, or what?Yes, it is just a rule for archetypes.
Keen generally doesn't work with ranged weaponsKeen Edge the spell works on any slashing or piercing weapon or 50 pieces of ammunition. There is also a Keen Bow on a chronicle sheet.
The first archetypes appeared in Advanced Players Guide. The beginning of the chapter talks about general archetype rules. This is where you find the archetype stacking rules. Not sure if every book since that has archetypes also has that rule fully explained.
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Math StuffI think a more normal named bullet looks something like this:
VS TOUCH AC
+5 Enhancement from pool + weapon
+6 Deadly Aim
+2 STR
+1 Precise
+2d6 Gravity BowThat's for the Weapon damage.
Spell Damage:
1d6 Flame Arrow
+11 Named Bullet
Empowered Intensified Snowball cast from a 2nd level slot. 30d6Total:
37d6+53 = Avg. 183 damage. (max 275)
Don't forget to finish your full attack if it isn't dead.
A couple questions:
- How much concern we have for the 10-11 subtier specifically when determining whether to ban something?
- How much concern for Seeker tiers?
- If we are so very concerned about the 10-11 subtier, why are wizards legal?
So, without fully speccing out a character to fit what you've put together numerically, I'm looking at level 11 in standard progression or 10 with retraining to get Named Bullet, which you're looking at 1-3 a day, depending on level and Int mod. What is being comparably lobbed out at that level?
Well, there's pouncing greatsword barbarians to start. They compare pretty favorably, but their trick is practically unlimited use. You've got cavaliers with lances, and their damage is averaging in the 100-120 range per charge with challenge at 4/day. Smiting paladin archers are hanging in there, as well. Rangers could be doing the same Named Bullet nonsense as you, albeit without the spellstrike and at a lower caster level - honestly, most won't.
But wait, level 11? As in, 6th level spells are available? And every caster that focuses on offense is going to be holding a Staff of the Master? The following are just the 5-6 Core spells that could be thrown out by a Wizard. Magic Jar becomes insta-death at its expiration, mind you, and there are 5 Persistents per scenario in a Staff of the Master. The kicker? Less investment is required for these to go off.
- Persistent Flesh to Stone
- Maximized OR Persistent Disintegrate
- Persistent Magic Jar
- Persistent Dismissal
- Persistent Dominate Person
Long story short:If we agree that the majority of play occurs under the 10-11 subtier, your concern is significantly less relevant. Yes, archery is powerful, but the restrictions placed on it by Spell Combat restrict its overall power level - you may still take Rapid Shot, for instance, but you'll be using it to avoid casting spells. Your build also required 2 metamagic feats, which reduce the potential to take the standard archery set.
I don't see this as being anywhere close to Zen Archer ridiculousness most of the time. Honestly, I think it's a minor bump up from Magus as a base class.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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My stat block isn't nearly as pretty but should work all the same.
** spoiler omitted **
At level 5 he is a pretty decent character but he's actually designed to scale into the higher levels at this point. He will start getting more bab and Deadly Aim damage and next level receives 3rd level spells. He will probably take Spell Blending for See Invisibility and Gravity Bow.
Not bad, a little bit much stat dumping for my taste, but yeah. I would personally not touch the double trait metamagic feat combo, but fortunately it is completely irrelevant to the issue whether or not the eldritch archer is broken since the melee version can do the same, it just needs the close range arcana to do so.
Arcane accuracy seems like a good choice, but sine your arcane pool is a limited resource, that has to power your weapon improvement, your spell recall and now arcane accuracy.. and looking back at a couple of recent scenarios, I would expect about 3 chances for a fight per scenarios.
Also I could have sworn that attacking from higher ground does not work for ranged attacks, but I can't find a source for that. Of course being a flying archer usually has advantages.
Of course that sample character does not wear armor yet, and in my experience the fact that you are an archer does not mean that enemies don't want to come and hang out with out in melee range.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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Math StuffI think a more normal named bullet looks something like this:
VS TOUCH AC
+5 Enhancement from pool + weapon
+6 Deadly Aim
+2 STR
+1 Precise
+2d6 Gravity BowThat's for the Weapon damage.
Spell Damage:
1d6 Flame Arrow
+11 Named Bullet
Empowered Intensified Snowball cast from a 2nd level slot. 30d6Total:
37d6+53 = Avg. 183 damage. (max 275)
Don't forget to finish your full attack if it isn't dead.
Named bullet certainly does have some applications, but since it works with the vanilla magus (maybe not quite as well, but since you target touch AC when using it as a melee weapon, I am not that worried about either the attack roll or the confirmation roll), it isn't really a factor when it comes to the eldritch archer, right ?
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He has 6 uses of pool at 5. Enough for a +2 bonus and 1 full attack at +3 to hit. He lost spell recall when he gained the Flight hex.
Flying at the very least removes cover issues and yes still gives higher ground. It's also generally safer up there and you can already fly for 5/min a day.
Besides being flying he also can wear armor just fine and can cast mirror image and vanish when needed if things start getting a little too scary.
And yes my characters get more stat dumpy than other people prefer sometimes. I tend to only keep the scores that are necessary for the class to work. Every hero has a weakness.
Edit:
I'll go back to what I said at the start of the thread though. Is this probably the best magus archetype to date? Yes. Should it be banned? I think it is honestly just another fish in the sea.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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Assuming a 10th level build (+3 Composite Longbow +2 Str, Point-Blank Shot) a named bullet shot is doing approximately...You might want to look up and start your comparison with the 9th level build posted. As Ragoz posted, quite likely to have a +3 bow to start, +5, +elemental with arcane pool. So no DR at all most likely. Certainly better than +6 to damage at level 10.
For myself... Why on earth does this archetype get Arcane Bond for free? Crazy.
Well, the arcane bond is limited (you can't recall a spell) and it has to be a ranged weapon. This makes it pretty hard to cast spells when forced into melee, since you still have to hold your arcane bond weapon in one hand.
In theory you can still cast a melee spell and spellstrike with a weapon in the other hand (and somatic components aren't a problem, material components might be) but you can't use spell combat unless your are wielding a ranged weapon.At level 9 (due to fame limitation) this effectively gives you an additional +1 enhancement bonus for free.
I don't think any single part of the archetype is that crazy it just feels like the whole combined package is pretty strong. Right down to getting perception as a class skill (arguably the best class skill.)
You're right about the arcane bond. One of big draws of getting to make a wizard arcane archer was the bonded object. In just a couple levels I'll be buying my +10 bonded weapon at about a 100,000 gold discount. A magus doesn't need to buy something so excessive because they can already add bonuses but it just goes to show how powerful the bond is and how it can't be discounted.
It heavily depends on your fame score, most of the time it should enable you to increase your effective enhancement bonus by 1.
I will post a number of other builds and the black blade and mindblade archetypes will be among them since they provide a similar bonus.
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1) The argument ignores the big picture. The magus gains powerful spell/combat action economy benefits all balanced around a restriction of having to cast spells while full-attacking in melee. An Eldritch Archer throws all of those factors out the window while receiving almost no drawbacks for it. This leaves you with a class that can use all of the amazing benefits of archery and all of the amazing benefits of spells at the same time. This conists of way more than the "first round advantage" that gets talked about.
This was my initial reaction. Without having read the archetype, and only based on the information in this thread and elsewhere on the boards, I think people are pointing to the wrong aspects of the class when they say it's overpowered. The ability to be at range and casting spells, then take a full attack, is amazing. I don't think the most powerful uses for spell combat will even come from using spellstrike on these builds. Maybe against single opponents. Some examples:
1) Haste the party, then full attack as an Archer.
2) Black Tentacles, then full attack as an Archer.
3) Fireball/Lightning Bolt, then full attack.
4) Put Displacement on a melee ally (before they move up), then full attack.
5) Full attack, then Sleet Storm/Stinking Cloud/Obscuring Mist so you and the party can't be targeted back.
6) Full attack, then Vanish/Invisibility.
Basically, you're getting a quickened spell every round for the cost of a -2 to attack on your full attack. If you're worried about losing a spell because you miss with your arrow, just don't cast spells that miss and don't channel them through your arrows. The Magus spell list isn't quite as good as Wizard, but there are still some amazing spells on the list.
You get to do all of this while staying out of full attack range of melee enemies.
EDIT: For comparison, a ranged Warpriest can swift cast then full attack, but the swift casting has a limited number of uses per day, and it can only be used to self buff.
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So I did mention there's other builds that would still be around and easily compare to this.
Butterfly Stinger: This build tries to get a critical hit with a 15-20 weapon. Once it does, it passes off the critical to attack with a shocking grasp attached. This might include a spell storing weapon, casting the spell, or a held charge. The key to this build is efficiency as it doesn't waste spells.
Quick Drawer: This build carries several spell storing weapons which it quick draws and releases spells until the enemy dies. A typical quick draw full-attack at the same level as the named bullet character does at least 64d6 (avg 224) from shocking grasps and your weapon alone though at a huge cost of resources. You get to save spells if it dies on an earlier attack or if you ever critical hit.
The advantage of the Eldritch Archer is probably its large boost to safety from range but damage wise it obviously isn't anything special.
I don't think being an archer alone means the class should be banned.
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Basically, you're getting a quickened spell every round for the cost of a -2 to attack on your full attack.
You get to do all of this while staying out of full attack range of melee enemies.
I think this was the biggest issue for me when I compared it to my arcane archer. It's just so efficient in combat. Don't forget you get an extra attack on that full attack if it qualifies for the spellstrike.
Edit: Just remembered Snowball is a SR: No spell because it is conjuration. Another factor normal magi have to consider but the Eldritch Archer does not.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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Human magus 5 (Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Magic 9)
NG Medium humanoid (human)
Init +4; Senses Perception +0
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Defense
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AC 21, touch 14, flat-footed 17 (+7 armor, +4 Dex)
hp 43 (5d8+15)
Fort +7, Ref +6, Will +6
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee +1 scimitar +9 (1d6+5/18-20)
Special Attacks arcane pool (+2, 4 points), magus arcana (close range[UM]), spell combat, spell recall, spellstrike
Magus Spells Prepared (CL 5th; concentration +9)
. . 2nd—ablative barrier[UC], bladed dash, frigid touch[UM]
. . 1st—frostbite[UM], shield, snowball (DC 13), snowball (DC 13)
. . 0 (at will)—acid splash, detect magic, disrupt undead, prestidigitation
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Statistics
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Str 10, Dex 19, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 10
Base Atk +3; CMB +3; CMD 17
Feats Additional Traits, Combat Casting, Dervish Dance[ISWG], Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (scimitar)
Traits armor expert, focused mind, indomitable faith, wayang spell hunter
Skills Acrobatics +9, Knowledge (arcana) +10, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +6, Knowledge (planes) +6, Perform (dance) +3, Spellcraft +10, Use Magic Device +8
Languages Common
Combat Gear oil of bless weapon (2); Other Gear +1 mithral breastplate, +1 scimitar, cloak of resistance +1, 50 gp
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Tracked Resources
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Arcane Pool +2 (4/day) (Su) - 0/4
Oil of bless weapon - 0/2
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Special Abilities
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Arcane Pool +2 (4/day) (Su) Infuse own power into a held weapon, granting enhancement bonus or selected item powers.
Armor Expert -1 Armor check penalty.
Close Range (Ex) Using spellstrike, deliver ranged touch spells as melee touch spells.
Combat Casting +4 to Concentration checks to cast while on the defensive.
Dervish Dance Use Dex modifier instead of Str modifier with scimitar
Focused Mind +2 to Concentration checks
Spell Combat (Ex) Use a weapon with one hand at -2 and cast a spell with the other.
Spell Recall (Su) Spend your Arcane Pool to recall spells you have already cast.
Spellstrike (Su) Deliver touch spells as part of a melee attack.
Wayang Spell Hunter (Snowball) Reduce spell level increase from metamagic for chosen spell by 1.
Hero Lab and the Hero Lab logo are Registered Trademarks of LWD Technology, Inc. Free download at http://www.wolflair.com
Pathfinder® and associated marks and logos are trademarks of Paizo Inc.®, and are used under license.
I intentionally didn’t go into stat dumping, since the melee archetypes tend to benefit more from it.
While the dervish dancer has less endurance in the form of pearls of power, his AC is better, and with a substantial bonus to concentration checks, he should be able to use spell combat reliably in melee.
Instead of focussing on shocking grasp, I focus on snowball, since this makes it easier to compare the various builds.
It is worth noting, that bladed dash allows the magus to cover a short distance, which can enable him to get close to enemy spellcasters and threaten them, if he is close enough to use spell combat, he can almost counter the speed advantage of the archer.
Unfortunately at level 5 (for the sake of comparison I assumed fresh level 5 characters) a +1 spell storing weapon is not yet available.
In combat the dervish dancer uses his arcane pool to turn his +1 scimitar, into a +2 keen scimitar (unless the enemy has an elemental weakness), and with two attacker per round, his chances to deliver a critical snowball are pretty good.
His concentration checks are made with a +13 bonus, but considering his AC (ideally with a cast shield spell) he might as well risk the attack.
Unnamed Hero
Human magus 9 (Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Magic 9)
NG Medium humanoid (human)
Init +6; Senses Perception +1
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Defense
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AC 25, touch 16, flat-footed 20 (+8 armor, +1 deflection, +5 Dex, +1 natural)
hp 75 (9d8+27)
Fort +11, Ref +12, Will +10
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee +2 spell storing scimitar +15/+10 (1d6+8/18-20)
Special Attacks arcane pool (+3, 7 points), improved spell combat, magus arcana (accurate strike[UC], close range[UM], enduring blade[UC]), spell recall, spellstrike
Magus Spells Prepared (CL 9th; concentration +14)
. . 3rd—force hook charge[UM], haste, greater magic weapon, vampiric touch
. . 2nd—ablative barrier[UC], bladed dash, bladed dash, frigid touch[UM], mirror image
. . 1st—frostbite[UM], shield, snowball (DC 14), snowball (DC 14), snowball (DC 14), vanish[APG] (DC 14)
. . 0 (at will)—acid splash, detect magic, disrupt undead, disrupt undead, prestidigitation
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Statistics
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Str 10, Dex 22, Con 14, Int 16, Wis 10, Cha 10
Base Atk +6; CMB +6; CMD 23
Feats Additional Traits, Combat Casting, Dervish Dance[ISWG], Intensified Spell[APG], Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (scimitar), Weapon Versatility
Traits armor expert, focused mind, indomitable faith, wayang spell hunter
Skills Acrobatics +15, Diplomacy +9, Fly +12, Knowledge (arcana) +15, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +7, Knowledge (planes) +7, Perception +1, Perform (dance) +3, Spellcraft +15, Use Magic Device +12
Languages Common
SQ knowledge pool, medium armor
Combat Gear extend metamagic rod (lesser), oil of bless weapon (2), pearl of power (1st level) (4); Other Gear +2 mithral breastplate, +2 spell storing scimitar, amulet of natural armor +1, belt of incredible dexterity +2, cloak of resistance +3, headband of vast intelligence +2, ring of protection +1, 50 gp
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Tracked Resources
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Arcane Pool +3 (7/day) (Su) - 0/7
Extend metamagic rod (lesser, 3/day) - 0/3
Oil of bless weapon - 0/2
Pearl of power (1st level, 4/day) - 0/4
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Special Abilities
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Accurate Strike (Ex) 2 Arcane Pool: Melee attacks resolve as touch attacks.
Arcane Pool +3 (7/day) (Su) Infuse own power into a held weapon, granting enhancement bonus or selected item powers.
Armor Expert -1 Armor check penalty.
Close Range (Ex) Using spellstrike, deliver ranged touch spells as melee touch spells.
Combat Casting +4 to Concentration checks to cast while on the defensive.
Dervish Dance Use Dex modifier instead of Str modifier with scimitar
Enduring Blade (Su) 1 Arcane Pool: Duration of enchants to magus weapon increase to 1 minute per level.
Extend metamagic rod (lesser, 3/day) Metamagic rods hold the essence of a metamagic feat, allowing the user to apply metamagic effects to spells (but not spell like abilities) as they are cast. This does not change the spell slot of the altered spell. All the rods described here are use-activated (but casting spells in a threatened area still draws an attack of opportunity). A caster may only use one metamagic rod on any given spell, but it is permissible to combine a rod with metamagic feats possessed by the rod's wielder. In this case, only the feats possessed by the wielder adjust the spell slot of the spell being cast.
Possession of a metamagic rod does not confer the associated feat on the owner, only the ability to use the given feat a specified number of times per day. A sorcerer still must take a full-round action when using a metamagic rod, just as if using a metamagic feat he possesses (except for quicken metamagic rods, which can be used as a swift action).
The wielder can cast up to three spells per day that are extended as though using the Extend Spell feat. Lesser metamagic rods can be used with spells of 3rd level or lower.
Construction
Requirements: Craft Rod, Extend Spell feat; Cost 1,500 gp
Focused Mind +2 to Concentration checks
Improved Spell Combat (Ex) Use a weapon with one hand at -2 and cast a spell with the other.
Intensified Spell You can cast a spell that can exceed its normal damage die cap by 5 (if you have the caster level to reach beyond that cap).
Knowledge Pool (Su) Spend Arcane Pool points to prepare a magus spell that is not in your spellbook for 1 day.
Spell Recall (Su) Spend your Arcane Pool to recall spells you have already cast.
Spellstrike (Su) Deliver touch spells as part of a melee attack.
Wayang Spell Hunter (Snowball) Reduce spell level increase from metamagic for chosen spell by 1.
Weapon Versatility Weapon w/ Weapon Focus: shift grip to alter damage to B/P/S (free act.).
Hero Lab and the Hero Lab logo are Registered Trademarks of LWD Technology, Inc. Free download at http://www.wolflair.com
Pathfinder® and associated marks and logos are trademarks of Paizo Inc.®, and are used under license.
This is probably a relatively terrible dervish dance build, since it doesn’t use dump strength into the nether sphere, but on the flip side, losing your dexterity bonus to armor class isn’t quite as dangerous.
The dervish dancer has a pretty high damage potential since you use spell storing weapons, and if you build for it, use take quick draw, and cycle through your collection of spell storing scimitars.
Before combat the dervish dancer uses greater magic weapon on his scimitar, increasing the enhancement bonus to +2 ( not amazing at this level, but it should scale rather well).
In combat he uses his arcane pool to turn his weapon into a +4 spell storing keen scimitar (alternatively he uses some of that enhancement bonus for elemental damage, but since every magus can use this, it isn’t much of a discerning feature). Alternative he could use keen edge and his lesser metamagic rod of extend spell to and use his arcane pool for something else.
At this point, casting defensively isn’t really a challenge for first and second level spells, and with bladed dash and spell recall, you should have no problem getting into melee.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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1) The argument ignores the big picture. The magus gains powerful spell/combat action economy benefits all balanced around a restriction of having to cast spells while full-attacking in melee. An Eldritch Archer throws all of those factors out the window while receiving almost no drawbacks for it. This leaves you with a class that can use all of the amazing benefits of archery and all of the amazing benefits of spells at the same time. This conists of way more than the "first round advantage" that gets talked about.This was my initial reaction. Without having read the archetype, and only based on the information in this thread and elsewhere on the boards, I think people are pointing to the wrong aspects of the class when they say it's overpowered. The ability to be at range and casting spells, then take a full attack, is amazing. I don't think the most powerful uses for spell combat will even come from using spellstrike on these builds. Maybe against single opponents. Some examples:
1) Haste the party, then full attack as an Archer.
2) Black Tentacles, then full attack as an Archer.
3) Fireball/Lightning Bolt, then full attack.
4) Put Displacement on a melee ally (before they move up), then full attack.
5) Full attack, then Sleet Storm/Stinking Cloud/Obscuring Mist so you and the party can't be targeted back.
6) Full attack, then Vanish/Invisibility.
Basically, you're getting a quickened spell every round for the cost of a -2 to attack on your full attack. If you're worried about losing a spell because you miss with your arrow, just don't cast spells that miss and don't channel them through your arrows. The Magus spell list isn't quite as good as Wizard, but there are still some amazing spells on the list.
You get to do all of this while staying out of full attack range of melee enemies.
EDIT: For comparison, a ranged Warpriest can swift cast then full attack, but the swift casting has a limited number of uses per day, and it can only be used...
Depending on your build and the position, of your allies and enemies, some of those options are perfectly viably with existing variants, particularly those who use a reach weapon, or gain a lot of reach through class abilities.
And even if you in the middle of melee some of the things you mentioned above are an option, just make melee attacks instead of ranged attacks. Obviously for some tactics ranged tactics are an option, but it really depends on your chosen combat role.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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If anything, the two magus arcana in the book are way OP compared to the archer archetype. I was expecting the archetype to be legal and the arcana banned, not the reverse.
(and this coming from someone who loves the Magus class)
Can you explain why and how they are broken ?