monk with late stunning fist.


Rules Questions


so i made a weapon adept monk, focusing on the janni style for feats. he recently reached level 11, and was able to take the stunning fist feat, since the weapon adept archetype replaced it. my question is; does he gain all the abilities he'd have if he'd had it at level 1? like, does he gain the ability to make targets fatigued or sickened? can he use it more times a day like a normal monk could? thanks for any help.


Yes and no. The additional uses per day are tied to the feat, but the different effects are bound to the monk class feature.

Core Rulebook, feat description wrote:
Special: A monk receives Stunning Fist as a bonus feat at 1st level, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. A monk may attempt a stunning attack a number of times per day equal to his monk level, plus one more time per day for every four levels he has in classes other than monk.
Core Rulebook, monk description wrote:
Stunning Fist (Ex): At 1st level, the monk gains Stunning Fist as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. At 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the monk gains the ability to apply a new condition to the target of his Stunning Fist. This condition replaces stunning the target for 1 round, and a successful saving throw still negates the effect. At 4th level, he can choose to make the target fatigued. (...)

Advanced Class Guide has feats like Staggering Fist, Dazing Fist, Befuddling Strike (confusion), Draining Strike (fatigue) and finally Paralyzing Strike (at BAB 14 though), if you want another effect urgently.


No, the Stunning Fist class feature and the Stunning Fist Feat are not the same thing.

On the upside, Stunned is probably the best condition you can inflict besides Paralyzed. On the downside, at level 11 you may as well not even bother. The DC is so low, and many enemy Fort saves so high, it will rarely work.


SheepishEidolon wrote:

Yes and no. The additional uses per day are tied to the feat, but the different effects are bound to the monk class feature.

Core Rulebook, feat description wrote:
Special: A monk receives Stunning Fist as a bonus feat at 1st level, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. A monk may attempt a stunning attack a number of times per day equal to his monk level, plus one more time per day for every four levels he has in classes other than monk.
Core Rulebook, monk description wrote:
Stunning Fist (Ex): At 1st level, the monk gains Stunning Fist as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. At 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the monk gains the ability to apply a new condition to the target of his Stunning Fist. This condition replaces stunning the target for 1 round, and a successful saving throw still negates the effect. At 4th level, he can choose to make the target fatigued. (...)
Advanced Class Guide has feats like Staggering Fist, Dazing Fist, Befuddling Strike (confusion), Draining Strike (fatigue) and finally Paralyzing Strike (at BAB 14 though), if you want another effect urgently.

thanks for the reply, it helped clarify some things. but does that mean that at 12th level, if i have the feat, i will gain the ability to stagger an opponent?


No. It's a different Feat.


Rynjin wrote:
No. It's a different Feat.

i think i'm going to go with what sheepish said. the feat itself say that it has special qualities for monks, letting them use it more times per day. this is from the stunning fist SRD page.

Special: A monk receives Stunning Fist as a bonus feat at 1st level, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. A monk may attempt a stunning attack a number of times per day equal to his monk level, plus one more time per day for every four levels he has in classes other than monk.
i think while i dont get the sickening/ fatiguing, i may get the staggering affect added to it, since i have stunning fist and will be a monk of that level.


You think wrong.


megamanfan wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
No. It's a different Feat.

i think i'm going to go with what sheepish said. the feat itself say that it has special qualities for monks, letting them use it more times per day. this is from the stunning fist SRD page.

Special: A monk receives Stunning Fist as a bonus feat at 1st level, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. A monk may attempt a stunning attack a number of times per day equal to his monk level, plus one more time per day for every four levels he has in classes other than monk.
i think while i dont get the sickening/ fatiguing, i may get the staggering affect added to it, since i have stunning fist and will be a monk of that level.

Staggering is an entirely different effect. There are two things you're looking at, the Stunning Fist monk class feature, and the Stunning Fist combat feat.

The Stunning Fist monk class feature is available to regular monks, but not weapon adept monks. It gives the Stunning Fist combat feat for free, and it also gives the ability to modify Stunning Fist once you reach certain levels. The Stunning Fist combat feat is entirely separate from the ability to paralyze, stagger, or fatigue with stunning fists. If you do not get the Stunning Fist class feature, you do not get the ability to paralyze, stagger, or fatigue with the Stunning Fist combat feat.

The Stunning Fist combat feat is a feat available to everybody who qualifies. It gives the ability to stun and only stun. Monks, regardless of type, can use the feat an additional number of times a day. However, the combat feat does not give the the class feature. The combat feat does not ever give you the ability to use the Stunning Fist feat to paralyze, stagger, or fatigue.

However, what Sheepish said, is that there are other separate combat feats that allow you to paralyze, stagger, or fatigue. These are not different ways monks can use the Stunning Fist combat feat. There are entirely separate feats and are not directly tied to the Stunning Fist feat.

Dark Archive

If you want to focus on Stunning Fist, go with Mantis Style. Janni Style sucks anyway.


Psyren wrote:
If you want to focus on Stunning Fist, go with Mantis Style. Janni Style sucks anyway.

if i was going to focus on stunning fist, i wouldn't have taken an archetype that replaced it.

Sovereign Court

Rynjin wrote:
On the downside, at level 11 you may as well not even bother. The DC is so low, and many enemy Fort saves so high, it will rarely work.

It's still an amazing feat to take as an unarmed monk who doesn't get it at 1. At level 11, even with a Wis of 20 (16 base & +4 headband) and no other bonuses it'll be DC 20. Certainly nothing to write home about, but it'll still work 1/4 or so of the time on big beasties of CR 11 - and 1/2 or better against squishier targets. Using it doesn't cost anything but its own resource - so an amazing feat.

Of course - certain builds will be far higher. A Sensei Monk's stunning fist could be sitting at DC 25 or so if they boost it with a style. (since by 11 his Wis will likely be 24-26ish)

However - weapon adept is on the other side of the spectrum. Rarely will it be worth making a much less accurate unarmed swing just to try to get off a stunning fist.


Take Dazing Fist instead. Dazing is effectively the same thing as Stunned, but no monster is immune to it, unlike an immunity to stunning effects, which actually exists.

It's kind of silly really, that creatures immune to Stun can still get hit with Daze, which in many places is treated as a lesser effect of Stun, but hey, wouldn't want to make Wizards weaker by limiting their Dazing Spell Evocations, now would we?

Sovereign Court

Kaouse wrote:


Take Dazing Fist instead. Dazing is effectively the same thing as Stunned, but no monster is immune to it, unlike an immunity to stunning effects, which actually exists.

It's kind of silly really, that creatures immune to Stun can still get hit with Daze, which in many places is treated as a lesser effect of Stun, but hey, wouldn't want to make Wizards weaker by limiting their Dazing Spell Evocations, now would we?

That's not really true.

1. Stunning is far better. Stun does everything Daze does AND "A stunned creature drops everything held...takes a –2 penalty to AC, and loses its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). Attackers receive a +4 bonus on attack rolls to perform combat maneuvers against a stunned opponent.". (The bolded is especially useful with a rogue/ninja in the party.)

2. Monks get to use Stunning Fist at least 4x as many times per day.

3. From Dazing Fist - "Constructs, incorporeal creatures, plants, undead, and creatures that are immune to critical hits cannot be affected by this ability." - while they aren't inherently immune to Daze - they are immune to Dazing Fist.

Of course - nothing keeps you from taking both feats, though I'd probably only bother with Dazing Fist on a Sensei who would have a solid DC for it.


Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
On the downside, at level 11 you may as well not even bother. The DC is so low, and many enemy Fort saves so high, it will rarely work.

It's still an amazing feat to take as an unarmed monk who doesn't get it at 1. At level 11, even with a Wis of 20 (16 base & +4 headband) and no other bonuses it'll be DC 20. Certainly nothing to write home about, but it'll still work 1/4 or so of the time on big beasties of CR 11 - and 1/2 or better against squishier targets. Using it doesn't cost anything but its own resource - so an amazing feat.

Of course - certain builds will be far higher. A Sensei Monk's stunning fist could be sitting at DC 25 or so if they boost it with a style. (since by 11 his Wis will likely be 24-26ish)

However - weapon adept is on the other side of the spectrum. Rarely will it be worth making a much less accurate unarmed swing just to try to get off a stunning fist.

It does cost something. It costs a Feat. A Feat that at best works 1/4 of the time.

Yippee.

Unless you're uber focused on it like a Martial Artist with Mantis Style or something, stay far away.

Sovereign Court

Rynjin wrote:
Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
On the downside, at level 11 you may as well not even bother. The DC is so low, and many enemy Fort saves so high, it will rarely work.

It's still an amazing feat to take as an unarmed monk who doesn't get it at 1. At level 11, even with a Wis of 20 (16 base & +4 headband) and no other bonuses it'll be DC 20. Certainly nothing to write home about, but it'll still work 1/4 or so of the time on big beasties of CR 11 - and 1/2 or better against squishier targets. Using it doesn't cost anything but its own resource - so an amazing feat.

Of course - certain builds will be far higher. A Sensei Monk's stunning fist could be sitting at DC 25 or so if they boost it with a style. (since by 11 his Wis will likely be 24-26ish)

However - weapon adept is on the other side of the spectrum. Rarely will it be worth making a much less accurate unarmed swing just to try to get off a stunning fist.

It does cost something. It costs a Feat. A Feat that at best works 1/4 of the time.

I did say 'but its own resource' - I meant that it didn't use either Ki or an action.

Sure - other abilities work more consistently - but they virtually all cost an action. Once you have stunning fist there's no reason not to use it.

And - as I said above - it works 1/4 against beefy targets of equal CR. About 1/2 against squishier targets. (with no additional investment aside from the feat itself)

But even at only 1/4 effectiveness - by level 11 you can spam it every round in tougher fights - so it'll likely stun them nearly once per fight. Something to base a character concept around? No. But it sounds like a very good feat to me. (note - only for monks because they get so many uses - it'd be mediocre at best for a brawler or other unarmed combatant)


Better than something that works all the time? No.

I'd rather take Improved Critical, or Lunge, or Blind-Fight, or any number of other Feats before I took Stunning Fist. Stunning Fist is decent on a base Monk because it is 100% free, but why would you ever spend a Feat on it?

Sovereign Court

Rynjin wrote:
I'd rather take Improved Critical, or Lunge, or Blind-Fight, or any number of other Feats before I took Stunning Fist. Stunning Fist is decent on a base Monk because it is 100% free, but why would you ever spend a Feat on it?

While you don't turn them off & on, and they aren't based upon an enemy roll - none of those actually work all of the time either.

Even on a scimitar/rapier - Improved Critical works 15% per swing at best. Really more of 6-12% per swing depending upon your accuracy on the confirmation roll. Lunge has very situational usage (only used at all consistently on reach builds or when enlarged) - and Blind-Fight only works when fighting blind.

I think the difference might be in your perception because Stunning Fist is used actively rather than passively. However - unlike virtually every other active ability in Pathfinder - once you have it, Stunning Fist doesn't use any resource which you could use on something else. (no action/spell slot/ki points etc)

Dark Archive

megamanfan wrote:
Psyren wrote:
If you want to focus on Stunning Fist, go with Mantis Style. Janni Style sucks anyway.
if i was going to focus on stunning fist, i wouldn't have taken an archetype that replaced it.

Forgive me, I assumed since you were blowing a feat on something you'd normally have gotten for free that you wanted that thing to actually work. My mistake.

Rynjin wrote:


It does cost something. It costs a Feat. A Feat that at best works 1/4 of the time.

Yippee.

Unless you're uber focused on it like a Martial Artist with Mantis Style or something, stay far away.

Mantis Style + Ki Intensifying weapon + Ability Focus gets you +5 (possibly more with a higher enhancement e.g. Bane) so that can help to optimize it a bit further.


eh, it wasn't a good choice anyway. i was just toying around with the idea for his 11th level feat. didn't expect it to turn into the mess that this thread became. i feel ashamed of my self.

Liberty's Edge

megamanfan wrote:
i feel ashamed of my self.

Don't feel ashamed because others like to pick apart people just to show they are "better" than others.

If you want the feat take it. The arguments for and against have been give (some nicer than others). It is your character.

Sometimes that 1/4 of the time chance is what the party needed to survive. I can personal attest to that because I used a Stunning Fist against a Raged Gnoll barbarian and stopped him in his tracks (A nat 1 always fails...)

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