What to take for a grappler build, Master of many Styles or Tetori?


Advice


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Hello all,

I'm considering to dare make a grappler.
Maaayybe a small one, for the fun of it.

I want to get the most out of it, with consideration of not going monk all the way.
Now i know people will likely tell me automatically Tetori, but here's my problem.

Master of many Styles
Pros: Bonus feats to select styles (duh), gives thus access to Kraken Style, which gives extra grappling dmg based on wis modifier & extra to roll to maintain grapple.

Cons: Doesn't increase the potential for a successful grapple maneuver.

Tetori:
Pros: Improved Grapple on lvl 1, preventing the need to take it if going with MomS.
Cons: No nifty style feats.

What would you advice? Feats or traits to consider with this would also be useful, as others could offer perspective i'm overlooking.

Thanks.


Grappling builds are awesome: don't be afraid.

But let me ask you: why do you want to grapple your opponents? What is your goal?

It seems to me there are 2 worthy goals for a Grapple build: to inflict lots of damage, and to subdue and tie up your opponent.

More later.


I was considering combining it with the brawler's Strangler archetype.

If going with MomS, it'd be upon a successful one: unarmed+1d6(scales with lvl)+Kraken style wis modifier +2/4.

Grapple and bring them KO, either by the damage factor from above, Kraken Style's choking effect or the strangler's choke-hold.

If it were a small PC, it'd be hilarious to see a gnome/halfling/wayang, throttling a beefy [insert medium] opponent in combat.

Think homer Simpson with Bart, but in reverse.


In general, I multiclass extensively, and my Grapple build is based on the acccumulation of certain specific abilities and feats and not gaining many levels in any one class.

Your goal is to KO single opponents. What you need is:

Greater Grapple and Expert Captor

You know what Greater Grapple is, of course: an extra +2, and after making a Grapple Check as a Standard Action, Greater Grapple lets you make a 2nd Grapple Check as a Move Action.

Expert Captor is an ability granted to Level 2 Cavaliers of the Order of the Penitent. Expert Captor lets you Tie Up a Grappled--not Pinned!--opponent as part of your maintain-a-grapple check, and you don't take the -10 you normally do. So when you begin your round adjacent to your opponent, you can Initiate a Grapple as a Standard Action then Tie them Up as a Move Action! Now there are 2 things you need after that, really strong rope and a wicked high grapple mod.

To begin with there is the Robe of Infinite Twine which produces endless rope for you at the rate of 10'/round as a Swift Action, nifty, but it's just hemp rope. Really strong rope is actually a sticky wicket. Hemp Rope has a Break DC of 23. Silk Rope, 24, Spider Silk Rope 25, and steel chain 26. There are no statistics given for Adamantine chain. The closest thing I could find is the Weapon Dwarven Dorn Duergar, which is a 2 handed Exotic Weapon that consists of a 10' long chain with a ball at the end of it. Making a weapon out of Adamantine raises the cost of a weapon by 3000gp, so therefore Adamantine chain costs 300 gp/foot. Such a weapon has hit points and a hardness of 20, but no Burst DC is given. Does that mean Adamantine chains can't be burst? There is the Wondrous Item Iron Rope, which upon a command word turns into 1" thick iron.

So raising your Grapple mod. There's Improved Grapple and Greater Grapple for +2 each, of course. Cavaliers get a Bonus Teamwork Feat at level 1, so take Coordinated Maneuvers for a +2, and use Tactician to cash in on it. The Alchemal Strength Mutagen will give you a +2 which will stack with a Belt of Giant Strength, Bull Strength, or Boiling Blood (if you are an orc or half orc). The Tentacle Discovery will give you a +4. The King Crab (Tumor) Familiar will give you a +2. Level 3 Lore Wardens get a +2 on all Combat Maneuvers.

There are magic items:
Armbands of the Brawler: +1
Brawler Armor Enchantment: +2
Adhesive Armor Enchantment: +2
Gauntlets of the Skilled Maneuver: +2

Amulets of the Mighty Fists? not to to your Grapple Mod per se but if you are Grappling with a Weapon, say with a Tentacle you have Grab with, a Bite Attack if you have Hamatula Strike, then yes.

Anyway, we're up to about +30 now, not including your BAB or any Strength Mod you started with. And you should be able to get all these things plausibly by level 9. Between your BAB and your Strength, call it another +10.

Anything else? There's Druid Wildshape, with 4 levels in Druid and the Shaping Focus Feat, by level 6 you can Polymorph into Large Animals for a +2 CMB -1 to attack, but +4 ST for a +2 and a net of +3. At level 8, you get an extra +2.

Then there is the True Strike Spell. +20. It will enhance your Grapple Mod, but it has a range of Self, and only lasts for 1 attack, and to Tie Up your opponent, you need 2. Since it has a range of Self, you can't make a Potion of True Strike. You can make an Elixir of True Strike using Craft Wondrous Item, perhaps. As an Alchemist, you'd need to take the Master Craftsman Feat, first, and then consume your Eixirs of True Strike with a Sipping Jacket. But the Potion Glutton Feat works on any Potable, and Alchemal Extracts (of True Strike) are potables. Potion Glutton lets you drink any potable as a Swift Action. So you use a Wand of True Strike on yourself and run up to your opponent. Then Initiate a Grapple as a Standard Action, pop an Extract of True Strike as a Swift Action, then Tie your opponent Up as a Move Action.

So we're up to about +40 in bonuses for and average Grapple check of 50. What has a CMD 50? A Shoggoth has a CMD of 51. An adamantine Golem, 54. An Ancient Green Dragon, 48. A Balor Demon has a CMD of 54, but a Nalfeshnee Demons is only 42. And we're only talking like level 9-13 or so.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

What has a CMD 50?

Your average 15th level fighter type. Without any extra buffs from the casters my current 16th level half-orc fighter has a CMD of 55 without any thought put into it and my 15th level Tetori can break 80 at times.

I take the opposite approach and multi-class very little if never in Pathfinder. I would personally go with a straight Tetori if it were me. The idea of a grappling character in my opinion is to go from grapple to tied up as quickly as possible so next round you can do it again on a different bad guy. A Tetori can do that easily by about 9th level.

You also get Inescapable Grasp which lets you grapple creatures with Freedom of Movement and other get out of grapple free abilities. This is a must for the build to work in my opinion.

I am not knocking anyone else's build, just saying that I would stay focused and simple.


My halfling tetori has a 56 CMD at 9th level. Halflings get +1 to CMD vs Grapple as a favored class bonus.

One thing to look for in your grapple build is the ability to avoid the grapple penalties yourself. You either want to have some way to avoid the grappled condition completely or have some method of offsetting those penalties.

Tetoris ignore most of the penalties, and the Grabbing Style tree is another option.

Also, if you're planning to pin-and-tie-up, have some way to get a rope. Tailed tieflings or extra limb alchemists are handy here, and the equipment trick: rope feat has some potential, also.


@ Gwen, the strangler archetype actually ignores the grappled dex loss at lvl 2.

@ Scott Wilhelm, i'll have a closer look at those pointers, thank you.


Suppose i go with a gnome and follow the following build, would it somewhat work in game?

It's far from optimized, of course, more for the fun.

Monk 2(MomS)/ Brawler 2(Strangler)
Race: Gnome

Offense:
BaB +3, CMB +5(+7 for grapple, +9 to maintain grapple), CMD 18 (20 vs grapple)

Unarmed Strike: +4(1d4)
Monk/Brawler weapons +4(insert weapon dmg)

Defense:
AC: 17/17/14 [3 Dex, 3 Wis, 1 size]
Saves: Fort +8 Dex +9 Will +6

Ability scores:
Str: 10 (12-2) Dex: 17(16+1) Con:14(12+2) Int: 10 Wis: 16 Cha: 9 (7+2)

Feats:
Lvl 1 [character]: Improved Grapple
Lvl 1 [Monk feat]: Improved unarmed strike
Lvl 1 [monk bonus feat/archetype]: Kraken Style
Lvl 2 [monk bonus feat/archetype]: Kraken Throttle
Lvl 3 [character]: Agile Maneuvers (Use dex instead of str for CMB)
Lvl 4 [Strangler bonus feat]: Combat Reflexes/Weapon Finesse?

Traits:
To be determined.

Class abilities:

Monk: Evasion, Improved unarmed strike, Stunning Fist
Strangler: (lvl 1) Sneak Attack upon grapple/pin, (lvl 2) Ignore AC & dex penalty on grappled condition.
Brawler's Cunning, Martial Flexibility, Martial Training.


Hendelbolaf wrote:

What has a CMD 50?

Your average 15th level fighter type. Without any extra buffs from the casters my current 16th level half-orc fighter has a CMD of 55 without any thought put into it and my 15th level Tetori can break 80 at times.

I take the opposite approach and multi-class very little if never in Pathfinder. I would personally go with a straight Tetori if it were me. The idea of a grappling character in my opinion is to go from grapple to tied up as quickly as possible so next round you can do it again on a different bad guy. A Tetori can do that easily by about 9th level.

You also get Inescapable Grasp which lets you grapple creatures with Freedom of Movement and other get out of grapple free abilities. This is a must for the build to work in my opinion.

I am not knocking anyone else's build, just saying that I would stay focused and simple.

I really wonder how the hell he's pulling CMD in the mid 50s by that level, and how you're getting +80 to your Grapple rolls, all by yourselves. I smell exaggeration.

An optimized Fighter at level 20 would have at most (10 Base + 12 Str + 7 Dex + 20 BAB =) 49 without trying. Unless you're tossing in some Rage abilities and Mutagens, I don't see it getting much higher than that. This is including +5 Inherent Tomes, all stat increases to Strength, a +6 all stats belt, etc.

And you're 16th level (meaning you probably don't have all +5 Inherent tomes, and you're lacking 4 BAB); and you're pulling 55 CMD? I doubt that.

I also smell exaggeration on the +80 to your check, but it will take me a little of understanding Tetori to properly calculate that.

Sovereign Court

If this is for PFS, then a multi-class build would work.

If it is for a homebrew or AP, where the class levels can go beyond level 12, then a pure Tetori monk would make more sense, as it can handle stuff like Freedom of Movement or teleporting enemies.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Hendelbolaf wrote:

What has a CMD 50?

Your average 15th level fighter type. Without any extra buffs from the casters my current 16th level half-orc fighter has a CMD of 55 without any thought put into it and my 15th level Tetori can break 80 at times.

I take the opposite approach and multi-class very little if never in Pathfinder. I would personally go with a straight Tetori if it were me. The idea of a grappling character in my opinion is to go from grapple to tied up as quickly as possible so next round you can do it again on a different bad guy. A Tetori can do that easily by about 9th level.

You also get Inescapable Grasp which lets you grapple creatures with Freedom of Movement and other get out of grapple free abilities. This is a must for the build to work in my opinion.

I am not knocking anyone else's build, just saying that I would stay focused and simple.

I really wonder how the hell he's pulling CMD in the mid 50s by that level, and how you're getting +80 to your Grapple rolls, all by yourselves. I smell exaggeration.

An optimized Fighter at level 20 would have at most (10 Base + 12 Str + 7 Dex + 20 BAB =) 49 without trying. Unless you're tossing in some Rage abilities and Mutagens, I don't see it getting much higher than that. This is including +5 Inherent Tomes, all stat increases to Strength, a +6 all stats belt, etc.

And you're 16th level (meaning you probably don't have all +5 Inherent tomes, and you're lacking 4 BAB); and you're pulling 55 CMD? I doubt that.

I also smell exaggeration on the +80 to your check, but it will take me a little of understanding Tetori to properly calculate that.

If they use the fighter FCB for boosting grapple CMD it seems doable. 16 BAB+ 16 FCB+ 10 BASE = 42 before factoring in feats, stats, or items.

Of course, he didn't specify that it was grapple specific CMB, so I dunno.


Captain Morgan wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Hendelbolaf wrote:

What has a CMD 50?

Your average 15th level fighter type. Without any extra buffs from the casters my current 16th level half-orc fighter has a CMD of 55 without any thought put into it and my 15th level Tetori can break 80 at times.

I take the opposite approach and multi-class very little if never in Pathfinder. I would personally go with a straight Tetori if it were me. The idea of a grappling character in my opinion is to go from grapple to tied up as quickly as possible so next round you can do it again on a different bad guy. A Tetori can do that easily by about 9th level.

You also get Inescapable Grasp which lets you grapple creatures with Freedom of Movement and other get out of grapple free abilities. This is a must for the build to work in my opinion.

I am not knocking anyone else's build, just saying that I would stay focused and simple.

I really wonder how the hell he's pulling CMD in the mid 50s by that level, and how you're getting +80 to your Grapple rolls, all by yourselves. I smell exaggeration.

An optimized Fighter at level 20 would have at most (10 Base + 12 Str + 7 Dex + 20 BAB =) 49 without trying. Unless you're tossing in some Rage abilities and Mutagens, I don't see it getting much higher than that. This is including +5 Inherent Tomes, all stat increases to Strength, a +6 all stats belt, etc.

And you're 16th level (meaning you probably don't have all +5 Inherent tomes, and you're lacking 4 BAB); and you're pulling 55 CMD? I doubt that.

I also smell exaggeration on the +80 to your check, but it will take me a little of understanding Tetori to properly calculate that.

If they use the fighter FCB for boosting grapple CMD it seems doable. 16 BAB+ 16 FCB+ 10 BASE = 42 before factoring in feats, stats, or items.

Of course, he didn't specify that it was grapple specific CMB, so I dunno.

Most optimizers wouldn't go that far unless they were specializing in it.

This one isn't. He said that he hits 55 CMD without even trying or getting buffs from others. If he's putting FCB into it instead of HP (or even skills), then it betrays the point of it being a "passive" benefit.


Wing Storm wrote:
If this is for PFS, then a multi-class build would work.

That was a consideration.

But the AP's i am in won't hit lvl 12, afaik.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

I really wonder how the hell he's pulling CMD in the mid 50s by that level, and how you're getting +80 to your Grapple rolls, all by yourselves. I smell exaggeration.

An optimized Fighter at level 20 would have at most (10 Base + 12 Str + 7 Dex + 20 BAB =) 49 without trying. Unless you're tossing in some Rage abilities and Mutagens, I don't see it getting much higher than that. This is including +5 Inherent Tomes, all stat increases to Strength, a +6 all stats belt, etc.

And you're 16th level (meaning you probably don't have all +5 Inherent tomes, and you're lacking 4 BAB); and you're pulling 55 CMD? I doubt that.

I also smell exaggeration on the +80 to your check, but it will take me a little of understanding Tetori to properly calculate that.

First off I have no reason to exaggerate or impress any one on these threads. If you do not believe me that is fine. If you would like a copy of a pdf from Herolab of the character, let me know your email address.

The character is actually now 16th level so in short, CMD = 55 (10 + BAB 16 + Str 13 + Dex 4 + Size 1 + Deflection 5 + Untyped 4 + Insight 1 + Luck 1)

Strength = 36 (Half-orc with Base 20 + Levels 4 + Belt 6 + Book 4 + large 2)
Dexterity = 18 when large
Enlarge Person = Size 1
Juggernauts Pauldrons = +4 Untyped bonus to CMD and Enlarge Person
Ring of Protection +5 = Deflection 5
Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier = Luck 1
Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone = Insight 1

Not that hard really and she is not even meant to resist grapples and such. She is a brawny two-handed reach weapon fighter that covers 76 squares around her in combat.

I do not have time to post the Tetori but, trust me, I am not exaggerating so make sure you know what you are talking about before you basically call someone a liar. I will try and post the Tetori later.


Hendelbolaf wrote:

What has a CMD 50?

Your average 15th level fighter type. Without any extra buffs from the casters my current 16th level half-orc fighter has a CMD of 55 without any thought put into it and my 15th level Tetori can break 80 at times.

I take the opposite approach and multi-class very little if never in Pathfinder. I would personally go with a straight Tetori if it were me. The idea of a grappling character in my opinion is to go from grapple to tied up as quickly as possible so next round you can do it again on a different bad guy. A Tetori can do that easily by about 9th level.

You also get Inescapable Grasp which lets you grapple creatures with Freedom of Movement and other get out of grapple free abilities. This is a must for the build to work in my opinion.

I am not knocking anyone else's build, just saying that I would stay focused and simple.

Good answer, and it's good to think of ways for a character to buff up a character's CMD. My first thought was Grease Spell.

I have been having monsters on my mind more than other player characters. I find in general, either a GM has not given a lot of thought to his NPC's CMD or he just gives them rings of Free Action.

I should point out, though, that I'm talking about a level 9 character, and you are talking about a level 15 character. That is not exactly evidence that my character build isn't awesome.

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