A puzzling question: Gestalt vs Mythic


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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I have a question I've posed to my gaming group, and would similarly like to ask the boards here at Paizo:

If you consider the relative powers of a character that gains a mythic tier at every even level to a gestalt character, which will come out to be more powerful?

To expand upon the first question a little: are they comparable in power? Is it far too subjective to make a call? Are there level ranges where one is obviously superior to another?

Personally, I think they are about equal, both have massive min/max potential, and can make for difficult to balance for parties.

Food for thought

^_^


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Mythic is certainly more powerful, imo. Gestalt provides more options in general, and makes characters more survivable, but they still have to obey bssic mechanical rules that make the system work and are extremely limited by action economy. Mythic tiers throw that out the window very quickly, even without some of the more absurd mythic spells/path abilities enter the equation.


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Mythic is SIGNIFICANTLY more powerful than Gestalt.

I should know - I play with both quite regularly, and as GM, I just had a TPK from a couple of burning skeletons that somehow wiped out an entire party of high-point-buy gestalt characters in about three turns. Mythic would've stopped that in its tracks. XD

Though, as far as min-maxing goes, I usually ask people to make gestalt builds that are diverse and capable of doing different things, not narrowly specialized to do one thing stupidly well. So that's a factor, too.

On the whole, though, Mythic is more powerful (even if you're using the fixes suggested in the Mythic Hero's Handbook, which any game using the system should be).


Gesult gives options and coolness. but is bound by world physics.
you're morpheus or trinity, or even the ghost twins from the Matrix.

Mythic you break the rules of the world. You're Smith, Neo, Archetect or the Oracle, the Frenchmen, the Trainman.

They can certainly compete no doubt. But the potentials are just so drastically different. but even in their own respective groups the levels can be pretty far different too. Depending on the building


It depends on the Gestalt and on the Mythic. There are a couple of Mythic abilities that are really crazy. But then there are some that are just weaker versions of stuff other classes may already have access to, like Barbarian's Spell Sunder being poorly replicated with Champion's 6+ Tier ability, Shatter Spells.

Then there's the hilarious power of synergy if you chose your classes well. A Summoner/Skald is pretty ludicrously broken if you know what you're doing. Which leads to my next point, Mythic is pretty limited, with their archetypes being made for primarily the Core classes, but not really helping some of the newer classes. It's a function of it's time, to be sure, but you have only to look no farther than the Hierophant to see exactly what I mean (half of their abilities are based on Channel Energy and are clearly meant for the Cleric).

I'm in the middle of a Mythic Gestalt game right now, actually, as a Paladin/Bloodrager. We're only Tier 2, so I can't really say much, but I definitely find myself relying on and enjoying my gestalt class features a lot more than my mythic abilities.

That said, my caster friends absolutely love their mythic abilities, so I guess it just goes to show you who the book helps out more. A Mythic martial can move and attack...a limited number of times a day. A Mythic caster can cast literally any spell in existence without preparing it or even knowing it, AND said spell gets buffed. Did someone say Caster Martial Disparity? Well, I'll say it right now: Caster Martial Disparity.


When I build a gestalt character, I try to use the two classes to cover each other's weaknesses. The Paladin/Bloodrager is a nice combo, another I enjoy is Inquisitor/Monk (unchained now) for the very potent defense that can be brought to the battlefield. Stalwart+Evasion can make casters cry, especially when you consider the offensive one-two punch of a flurrying judging very fast moving character.

While mythic will make either the inquisitor or monk more potent in a limited range of situations, I feel that gestalt covers a much broader base of situations, allowing for a well rounded jack of all trades that is in no way a slouch.

But for casters, yeah I can see where mythic could just be plain stronger.


Dwarf Steel Soul Inquisitor Unchained Monk with all good saves, Stalwart + Evasion, and full BAB is on my list of things to play in my next high level gestalt game.

Half Orc Skald Summoner with Fate's Favored and Community Minded combined with Amplified Rage and a focus on Summon Monster is just obscene though, as my experience in another game attests. We are level 8, yet my sized Small Earth Golems from the Summon Monster 2 list are better offensively than pretty much our entire frontline. Really helps that I can summon 1d4+2 of them.

As for my Mythic Gestalt game, I am definitely not the most powerful character around, but I used to be. At least before our casters started coming into their own. Unfortunately though, my GM saw fit to nerf my damage and forced me to use a shield. Not that I need it anyway, between Lesser Celestial Totem, Fey's Foundling, and the Tiefling Favored Class Bonus. Health for days. My GM needed to double crit me with a scythe wielded by a BBEG in order to kill me before I could heal, and even then it was only because I had already spent my Immediate Action negating the first crit with Windy Escape. Fun times.


So if its the general thought that mythic is simply better, what would help balance things out if I were to offer my players the choice of mythic or gestalt? Giving the gestalt players Hero Points? Or some kind of statistic increase? Like +2 to 3 different stats? Or just a +2 to a stat of their choice every 4 levels to keep them on par with the mythic increases?

Any thoughts would be welcome

^_^


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A daily pool of Hero Points might work (half their character level?), since that would be fairly similar to the mythic surge ability. So, basically, characters would have the choice of either class abilities or a smaller number of more powerful talents alongside the static mythic bonuses, but both could affect die rolls a bit.


And you think that would make up for the disparity in stats? The every even tier +2 to any ability score you wish? Or would Hero Points and stat buffs make mythic seem less enticing?


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I've actually never used Hero Points, but I've been lead to understand they're similar. XD Possibly more powerful, though, hence the smaller pool than Mythic Power.

First things first, though. Gestalt and Mythic will never be equal. If the stats are a concern, you could offer the gestalt characters Automatic Bonus Progression, allowing them to spend their money on items outside the basics, and that would help. Maybe even help significantly. But Gestalt, fundamentally, is intended to be in-line with normal power progression (not abused to create stupidly OP characters).

I mean, sure, a Sorcerer/Wizard gestalt of a decent level has about a billion spells a day, but they're still at the same caster level and no effect is fundamentally stronger, just usable more often. Most parties stop adventuring when the mages are out of spells anyway, so it's not really that big of a change. (Seriously, there's not much difference between a sorcerer/wizard and a sorcerer with lots of scrolls. They're basically just saving money on consumables.)

Mythic specifically surpasses the normal power level - you can cast spells that are stronger than normal, make more attacks, and in general do things you could not normally do. There is no practical way of balancing the systems to make them approximately equal to each other.

In the end, it all comes down to what sort of character the players want to make. You could present it like this:

Gestalt characters are good at more than one thing, and they'll allow for a more complex character. For example, a Brawler/Kineticist can go the Kinetic Fist route and allow you to play a character who surrounds their hands with energy before punching things, and can still blast effectively from a distance if foes run away.

Mythic is being better than everyone else at what you do - more narrowly specialized, but you're incredible at what you focus on, and definitely larger than life.

I would honestly ask what the players want to do, then go on from there. It'll also help if you ask people to avoid trying to abuse the system. XD


Mythic isn't "just better" unless you are a full caster class or pulling of one of the 2 ways to get full casting. For just martial abilities, you may often be better served by Gestalt. The same can be said for martially inclined partial casters.

That said, Hero points are a decent alternative.


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Kaouse wrote:

Mythic isn't "just better" unless you are a full caster class or pulling of one of the 2 ways to get full casting. For just martial abilities, you may often be better served by Gestalt. The same can be said for martially inclined partial casters.

That said, Hero points are a decent alternative.

...uh, dude, have you looked at what the Champion and Guardian paths give you? A high tier champion is a terrifying combatant and a guardian can just soak up punishment like a divinely-inspired sponge. That's not even getting into the standard things tiers give you, like Surge, Amazing Initiative, Mythic Feats, Ability Score bonuses, etc.


I ran mythic and gestalt alongside each other for a bit in one game, keeping the Gestalt Character at level to what their mythic tier adjusts their APL(so level + 1/2 Tier rounded up). His Gestalt wasn't even that strong as far as gestalt combos go: He was a Black-Bladed Kensai Magus/Wizard(we fluffed the sword as sharing it's knowledge with him) and all said he contributed pretty well across the board to the mythic characters. Maybe it was because Magus has very good action economy with spell combat, or that he was also a T1 class, but either way that worked out well for my group anyways.


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I lurk a lot on the boards, and the whole disparity that is touted between martial and caster still exists in mythic. I agree that mythic is amazing, and while I have more experience with gestalt (which might bias my opinion slightly) I think they both make for interesting groups.

At this point, I'm wondering what might bring them closer to par, like for instance I wanted to run a group of gestalt characters through WotR that don't get mythic.

Any ideas to lower the disparity besides Hero Points? Thought that is a good suggestion, it seems to be only a step in the right direction.


JosueV wrote:
And you think that would make up for the disparity in stats? The every even tier +2 to any ability score you wish? Or would Hero Points and stat buffs make mythic seem less enticing?

If you're getting a tier roughly every two levels, surge is gonna come out about equal with hero points as far as modifying d20 rolls. The latter is a dice result and requires an immediate action but its the dice size scales decently and it's got more uses per day. Hero points can also replicate some base mythic abilities by allowing the player to do things like gain extra actions, even out of turn, reroll a d20, cheat death, or get a hint from the GM. They're cool and getting extra ability scores boosts in addition would put this option on a good footing versus mythic in many ways for non-caster characters.

The BIG factor to consider is mythic path abilities vs. special uses of hero points. This is where unique options and narrative power are gonna come into the mix. While mythic has some excellent choices, many of which require no expenditure of mythic power at all, the limits of what you can do with them is spelled out for you. This means less eye-balling things as a GM far as what is/isn't allowable and what DCs to set, if any. So, if a character wants to grapple and then throw a Gorgon like a shotput as a full-round action, they can't do so if their mythic choices don't give them any special abilities in that regard. Now, to contrast that with hero points, the fighter could declare this same intent, spend a hero point if you say that's fine, and then you decide what check/attack roll (if any) he has to pass to perform that ludicrous act. Hero points allow amazing flexibility like that, limited only by GM permission and player imagination, in both combat and non-combat scenarios. You could even flavor hero points as replicating mythic feats or path abilities, like granting a higher bonus and ignoring the penalty on certain combat feats for a time (Mythic Power Attack feat) or stunning an attacking mesmerist through sheer force of will (the Adamantine Mind path ability for guardians).

To summarize, both options (mythic vs. gestalt with +2 stat bonuses & hero points) are very good setups. It entirely depends on what you, as GM, feel will be more fun while not driving you nuts. I CAN tell you, from GMing a mythic party, that the power threshold of the character really begins to accelerate as they get more and more tiers, especially with how much they can cover in a day thanks to Recuperate. I don't forsee that same degree of staying power in the gestalt/bonuses/hero points idea, but I could be wrong.


JosueV wrote:

I lurk a lot on the boards, and the whole disparity that is touted between martial and caster still exists in mythic. I agree that mythic is amazing, and while I have more experience with gestalt (which might bias my opinion slightly) I think they both make for interesting groups.

At this point, I'm wondering what might bring them closer to par, like for instance I wanted to run a group of gestalt characters through WotR that don't get mythic.

Any ideas to lower the disparity besides Hero Points? Thought that is a good suggestion, it seems to be only a step in the right direction.

To echo the common sentiment of the board for only the 1,382 time this month: Spheres of Power for the spell-casters. The system just makes so much sense it's nuts. I honestly can't look at Vancian casting the same way anymore now that I've seen how spherecasters would work. Hero points and automatic stamina for full-BAB classes plus that 3rd party supplement for the casting classes seems like it would go a long way towards closing the gap.


JosueV wrote:

So if its the general thought that mythic is simply better, what would help balance things out if I were to offer my players the choice of mythic or gestalt? Giving the gestalt players Hero Points? Or some kind of statistic increase? Like +2 to 3 different stats? Or just a +2 to a stat of their choice every 4 levels to keep them on par with the mythic increases?

Any thoughts would be welcome

^_^

Giving them an extra standard action each round.


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From an old post of mine:

Here's my thoughts on the two:

Gestalt

•The bonuses stay the same scale throughout the campaign. It's a more linear growth than mythic.

•Gives you the best of a character of that level, but you never get more than a character could get. No matter how many options you have, you can still only do the same number of actions a round.

•Because of the above, it's a little easier to run. Encounters are usually not using more powerful foes, just more of them or more encounters. If you make foes too much more powerful, you can overpower a party.

•Gestalt is good for long adventuring days as people have more resources available to them. Spellcasters are either double casters and have more spells per day, or they're mixed with a class that gives them something else to do than cast spells.

•It can help you cover all the bases in a small party.

•In a large party, there's going to be some role overlap. You'll generally have at least two people covering each of the major party roles. Make that clear to people to avoid Diva drama.

•Gestalt characters come in two main types. Specialists, where the classes tend to do similar things - like Rogue/Bards or Arcanist/Wizards. And Generalists, like Sorcerer/Paladins. Some GM's will accept both types, others want one or the other.

•Gestalt characters generally need a good point buy, as they'll often need multiple good stats. Likewise, an extra feat or two helps.

Mythic:

•Mythic power is an exponential growth. Eventually, you simply cannot expect non-mythic creatures to challenge them at all. You'll be completely rebuilding the encounters for half of the AP.

•Mythic characters can do more than a normal character of that level. They can face tougher monsters than a gestalt character.

•Mythic characters often don't have much more endurance than a normal character. When they are facing challenging encounters, they don't do much more a day.

•Mythic characters are generally specialists. Their mythic power reinforces their primary role.

•Some character types are better supported by mythic than others. There's a third party book coming out that may help with this, though like all third party books it may break the game.

•Mythic power lets you do things that gestalt characters simply can't do at that level.

•Mythic is less kind to people with companions/cohorts/eidolons/etc. There are some things that help the companions, but often the companion doesn't gain as much as the main character loses.


Cerberus Seven wrote:
Kaouse wrote:

Mythic isn't "just better" unless you are a full caster class or pulling of one of the 2 ways to get full casting. For just martial abilities, you may often be better served by Gestalt. The same can be said for martially inclined partial casters.

That said, Hero points are a decent alternative.

...uh, dude, have you looked at what the Champion and Guardian paths give you? A high tier champion is a terrifying combatant and a guardian can just soak up punishment like a divinely-inspired sponge. That's not even getting into the standard things tiers give you, like Surge, Amazing Initiative, Mythic Feats, Ability Score bonuses, etc.

Champion abilities are by and large the same power level as Barbarian Rage Powers. Some are better, others are simply worse.

I would almost wage money on a Gestalt Paladin/Bloodrager (since Barbarian unfortunately has incompatible alignment) beating a Mythic Champion Paladin, as far as Path Tier abilities are taken into account.

Now, Universal path has the best abilities (Legendary Item / Divine Source = 9 level casting, among other things) and Mythic feats are certifiably insane (Mythic Vital Strike anyone?), so if those are taken into account, then sure, Mythic wins. But if we're talking about just the abilities that you get from the Champion Path? A properly built Gestalt can definitely beat them.

Don't make me laugh with the Guardian though. Their abilities are pretty bad, in all actuality. A 10th tier Hierophant has a better tanking ability than a Guardian, which is sad (Guardians need to be crit in order to regain MP, Hierophants only need to take 20 damage, like wtf?). Aside from that, use of your Mythic abilities is rarely ever a free action, meaning that classes that leverage their Swift action for tanking ability (Like the Paladin's Lay on Hands) are actually a bit hampered by the Guardian. Guardians are certifiably the worst Mythic Path (Tricksters at least get automatic Flat-foot at MT 10 on top of the ability to Path Dabble).

Paladin/Bloodrager can easily be a better tanker than a Paladin Guardian or a Bloodrager Guardian alone. Though I would admit that the ability to maximize all healing on yourself is definitely great for tanking...oh wait, that's the MT 10 Hierophant again, just checked. Jokes aside, automatic half damage at MT 10 Guardian is a great boon, especially since you don't need to spend an action or Mythic Power. It's one saving grace, if you will.


Having not played mythic yet, I can't say for any certainty....

But it seems only mythic lets you play The Juggernaut.... Champion path, Burst Through + Juggernaut = You are GETTING where you wanna flippin' go!


Mythic lets you do all sorts of things, especially if you add in the Mythic Mania books (and you absolutely should if you're using the system). It DOES help to have a solid idea of what you want to do, though. XD


Kaouse wrote:

Champion abilities are by and large the same power level as Barbarian Rage Powers. Some are better, others are simply worse.

I would almost wage money on a Gestalt Paladin/Bloodrager (since Barbarian unfortunately has incompatible alignment) beating a Mythic Champion Paladin, as far as Path Tier abilities are taken into account.

Now, Universal path has the best abilities (Legendary Item / Divine Source = 9 level casting, among other things) and Mythic feats are certifiably insane (Mythic Vital Strike anyone?), so if those are taken into account, then sure, Mythic wins. But if we're talking about just the abilities that you get from the Champion Path? A properly built Gestalt can definitely beat them.

Don't make me laugh with the Guardian though. Their abilities are pretty bad, in all actuality. A 10th tier Hierophant has a better tanking ability than a Guardian, which is sad (Guardians need to be crit in order to regain MP, Hierophants only need to take 20 damage, like wtf?). Aside from that, use of your Mythic abilities is rarely ever a free action, meaning that classes that leverage their Swift action for tanking ability (Like the Paladin's Lay on Hands) are actually a bit hampered by the Guardian. Guardians are certifiably the worst Mythic Path (Tricksters at least get automatic Flat-foot at MT 10 on top of the ability to Path Dabble).

Paladin/Bloodrager can easily be a better tanker than a Paladin Guardian or a Bloodrager Guardian alone. Though I would admit that the ability to maximize all healing on yourself is definitely great for tanking...oh wait, that's the MT 10 Hierophant again, just checked. Jokes aside, automatic half damage at MT 10 Guardian is a great boon, especially since you don't need to spend an action or Mythic Power. It's one saving grace, if you will.

I've never seen a gestalt character like that in action. They DO sound pretty impressive. Could you possibly elaborate on which champion path abilities you consider weak, and why? I only ask because I've seen mythic champions in action. They are VERY impressive.

As for guardian, I've pretty sure the ability to get DR 20/-, up to 15 points of fast healing, extra reach on your attacks for AOs, and their ability to simply negate critical hits might make them a damned good tank. But, I could always be wrong.


Always A Chance, Backlash, and Mule's Strength aren't very good.

Juggernaut, probably by accident, does not actually work and should be houseruled to actually be useful. XD


Hmm, so perhaps if the ability to take the mythic version of feats were added into the Hero Point system, they could be considered to be on par...

This is awesome everyone! Thanks for all the thought provoking discussion, keep it up!

^_^

As an update, my gaming group has just started the WotR AP, and while they are about level 3 and in just the first book, I still have some time to decide if I want to offer either option (mythic or gestalt) before that point.


GM Rednal wrote:
Always A Chance, Backlash, and Mule's Strength aren't very good.

Keep in mind that Always a Chance' s mileage will vary depending on your table. Too often have I played with crit fails, and a path that gets rid of them seems pretty mythic to me.


The steady flow of new content seems to favor Gestalt more than Mythic. Gestalt characters can directly pick from new options, Mythic characters can only hope there's synergy of their old rules with the new character options.

Just an interjection, I leave the final judgement to the others...

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
SheepishEidolon wrote:

The steady flow of new content seems to favor Gestalt more than Mythic. Gestalt characters can directly pick from new options, Mythic characters can only hope there's synergy of their old rules with the new character options.

Just an interjection, I leave the final judgement to the others...

Good point, although I'm not sure how the new Mythic material from Legendary Games fits in with the new content.


JosueV wrote:


If you consider the relative powers of a character that gains a mythic tier at every even level to a gestalt character, which will come out to be more powerful?

To expand upon the first question a little: are they comparable in power? Is it far too subjective to make a call? Are there level ranges where one is obviously superior to another?

Personally, I think they are about equal, both have massive min/max potential, and can make for difficult to balance for parties.

There's actually some math available to answer this question in a semi-authoritative way.

The mythic rules suggest that a mythic creature's CR is increased by half of its mythic rank/tiers ["Your monster's final CR is its initial CR + 1/2 its MR (round down; minimum 1)"], so a creature with four mythic tiers is CR+2.

By contrast, gestalt adds a flat +1 to the CR. The reasoning is as follows:

Two CR X creatures are collectively a CR +2 encounter. A level 10 sorcerer is CR 10, and a level 10 barbarian is also CR 10, so together, they are CR 12. If they had an ability that lets them stand in the same square, that doesn't alter this CR.

Now, a level 10 sorcerer/barbarian gestalt is clearly more powerful than either separately -- more hitpoints/spellcasting, respectively. But it's also not as powerful as our two characters standing in the same square. The gestalt has fewer total hit points, can be disabled on a single failed save, and most importantly, has only one set of actions.

So the gestalt is significantly more powerful than CR 10, but significantly less powerful than CR 12.


The mythic tiers =1/2CR thing is ludicrous on its face though, and demonstrably so. That keeps being cited, but the only path I can reasonably see that for is the Marshall, and only if fought alone.

Edit: b&%*@%&s is a really strange word to filter...


LeesusFreak wrote:

The mythic tiers =1/2CR thing is ludicrous on its face though, and demonstrably so. That keeps being cited, but the only path I can reasonably see that for is the Marshall, and only if fought alone.

Edit: b!&++!~s is a really strange word to filter...

Mythic RANKS are certainly reasonable to put at 1/2 CR apiece. That is, of course, provided you use the examples Paizo did. Since mythic creature abilities can be anything under the sun, the potential to heavily optimize such monsters for maximum lethality is quite high. If you choose a well-rounded set of abilities that complements the creatures overall role and nature, though, adding half their rank to their CR works just fine.

Now, mythic tiers is another matter entirely. Those provide over double the mythic power but less hit points. They give abilities like Amazing Initiative, Force of Will, and Unstoppable but no natural AC bonus or boost to SR (if any). It's really all about your path abilities with Mythic Tiers, which is what makes them so hard to pin down in terms of CR adjustments.


The mythic path ability to have your familiar permanently halve your damage is well, godly.

Say you take 100 damage from a pounce and 3 attacks.half of that damage goes to your familiar, leaves you with 50. But wait you currently have Dr 10. You now only took 20 damage. But what about your familiar, well he has regeneration, he isn't dying anytime soon.

I don't think gestalt can mitigate 80 points a round constantly.


I mean, you could... Gestalting the other side as an Alchemist with a Tumor Familiar that has the Protector archetype and you've got essentially the same hit point battery concept.


@Darth Grall: True, but the exact value of abilities shouldn't be judged by house rules. XD "If your table has rules saying otherwise" is a caveat to literally everything. In general, Always A Chance isn't an especially good choice (it applies to an average of 1/20th of your attacks, the majority of which are less accurate to begin with and might miss even if it's not an autofail). This can vary somewhat depending on your build, of course. There are definitely more useful things to spend a mythic tier ability on, though. (Of course, I prefer building mythic for flavor, not optimized power... XD)

@John Woodford: Rather well. The Mythic Mania series is a HUGE expansion, and I think they plan to continue with similar content (Mythic Occult, etc). If people remain interested, I think we'll continue getting support.


Rogar Stonebow wrote:

The mythic path ability to have your familiar permanently halve your damage is well, godly.

Say you take 100 damage from a pounce and 3 attacks.half of that damage goes to your familiar, leaves you with 50. But wait you currently have Dr 10. You now only took 20 damage. But what about your familiar, well he has regeneration, he isn't dying anytime soon.

I don't think gestalt can mitigate 80 points a round constantly.

Ehhhmmm

Check protector familiar archetype.

Not even the need to gestalt.


Depends on what sort of material you allow. In 3.5e you could take templates as a player character.

If that's allowed, I'd wager the bet that I could easily build a fighter that could wipe the floor with his mythic equivalent.

Phrenic(2) Spellwarped(3) Feral(1) Half-minotaur(1) Mineral Warrior(1) Unseelie(1) Primordial(0) Goliath(1)//Fighter 10 is probably a whole bunch better than Human Fighter 10[Champion 5].

I guess it also depends on the exchange rate between gestalt levels and mythic. MR 1 isn't that hot for a warrior, although it's pretty sweet for a wizard.


If you follow the suggestions for running a mythic game the characters get a significant boost in power. Since full spell casters are more powerful than martial classes it makes since that they are still more powerful when using mythic rules. Even a single tier can significantly increase a characters power. For example a paladin with mythic smite can spend a mythic point to regain a smite evil. Even at tier 1 that works out to be 5 extra smites per day. If the paladin is low level that may not seem that good, but at high level that is a lot of extra smites. By tier 3 that becomes 9 extra smites per day.

At tier 3 and above the mythic characters are a lot more powerful. Recuperation kicks in at tier 3 which allows you to rest for one hour and spend a mythic point to regain half your HP, but more importantly to regain any class feature like smites, or spells that are useable a set number of times per day. That means the 7th level paladin could get in 27 smites per day. Mythic saves kick in at tier 5 which basically gives evasion for any spell that allows a save unless the caster is mythic.

Gestalt characters gain more abilities but not as much raw power. What they usually gain is a lot more options but often have more things they can do than they have actions to do them. Yea the cleric/wizard has a ton of spell they can cast, but can’t cast more spells per round than a non-gestalt character. This is the biggest limiting factor of a gestalt character. Since they have effectively two classes, but don’t get any more standard feats they may actually have a hard time getting the normal feats of their classes. If you are playing a druid monk do you go for the combat feats and forgo augmented summoning ?

Mythic rules are good if you want to increase the power of the players. It’s great when the GM wants to really cut lose and throw very tough encounters at the party. Gestalt rules are more useful when the party is smaller and does not have enough players to cover all the roles.


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Gestalt also opens the door to a lot of concepts that would normally be terrible ventures-- A PC focused on throwing daggers (Flying Blade // Knife Master), an Arcane Archer or Mystic Theurge (the latter without actually needing the PrC) that doesn't completely suck, etc.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

One of the other things gestalt does for you that, I think, drives a lot of the concerns about power level is to combine class features to make MAD character concepts more SAD. Frex, oracle (lore)|bard, or investigator (empiricist)|wizard. In either case, punching up the casting stat (CHA or INT) reaps significant benefits for the character's other skills. The investigator doesn't have to push DEX as well, and the bard gets better AC and Knowledge checks w/o having to increase DEX or INT.


LeesusFreak wrote:
Gestalt also opens the door to a lot of concepts that would normally be terrible ventures-- A PC focused on throwing daggers (Flying Blade // Knife Master), an Arcane Archer or Mystic Theurge (the latter without actually needing the PrC) that doesn't completely suck, etc.

Arcane Archer is hard to do well in any case, though.


Mythic is insanely more powerful than gestalt, once you get a couple of mythic tiers. Mythic starts out as not too overwhelming, but then you get things like Mythic Vital Strike. Which allows you to basically deal full damage even while moving.

Then, there are other abilities that prevent you from dying from anything that doesn't deal mythic type damage.

And I think there is even an ability that prevents you from taking damage unless it's from a mythic source.


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I think gestalt is simpler, smooter, easier to learn and run, more balanced and overall more fun.

Mythic, OTOH, is freaking busted and IMHO, one of the most poorly designed Pathfinder products to date. It does more harm than good to the game.

It's one of the very few things that are in my "NEVER BUY THIS SHIT!" list.

tl;dr: Go with gestalt. It's hands down the better system.


Lemmy wrote:

I think gestalt is simpler, smooter, easier to learn and run, more balanced and overall more fun.

Mythic, OTOH, is freaking busted and IMHO, one of the most poorly designed Pathfinder products and does more harm than good to the game.

It's one of the very few things that are in my "NEVER BUY THIS S!#$!" list.

tl;dr: Go with gestalt. It's hands down the better system.

I agree strongly with this.

Mythic is literally a thing that has caused me not to buy products before, specifically Wrath of the Righteous. Without mythic the PCs couldn't keep up, but with optimized mythic characters the AP can't keep up. I love the ideas at play in WotR, but I will never ever play it even though I would like to be involved in a campaign of that epic scale. The rules for mythic are just that bad that I wont do it.

Sovereign Court

Claxon wrote:
Mythic is literally a thing that has caused me not to buy products before, specifically Wrath of the Righteous. Without mythic the PCs couldn't keep up, but with optimized mythic characters the AP can't keep up. I love the ideas at play in WotR, but I will never ever play it even though I would like to be involved in a campaign of that epic scale. The rules for mythic are just that bad that I wont do it.

Curious - while mythic is too powerful even for the AP designed with it in mind, (You're certainly not the first I've heard that from.) do you think that well built gestalt characters could keep up? Or is there too much mythic stuff in the AP which would be virtually impossible to defeat without mythic of your own?

(Admittedly - gesalt combos vary A LOT. A Fighter/Barbarian is kinda cool. A u-monk/inquisitor is disgustingly potent. Swash/pali is nearly as mean. And that's besides full caster combos. Master of Many Styles Monk/Druid is just gross.)


Exactly the issue I'm running into, thanks for asking Charon's Little Helper, if gestalt can keep up (perhaps with some other mods) then it may be the best way to do things, if not...

My group is fast approaching the climax of book 1... so my time is limited in figuring out which way to take the game.

Thanks for all the debate and opinions, the math behind the rules too!

^_^

Been a great help.


Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Claxon wrote:
Mythic is literally a thing that has caused me not to buy products before, specifically Wrath of the Righteous. Without mythic the PCs couldn't keep up, but with optimized mythic characters the AP can't keep up. I love the ideas at play in WotR, but I will never ever play it even though I would like to be involved in a campaign of that epic scale. The rules for mythic are just that bad that I wont do it.
Curious - while mythic is too powerful even for the AP designed with it in mind, (You're certainly not the first I've heard that from.) do you think that well built gestalt characters could keep up? Or is there too much mythic stuff in the AP which would be virtually impossible to defeat without mythic of your own?

I don't think Gestalt characters would be able to keep up after a while. They might be okay through some levels. Actually at low levels the gestalt characters are probably more powerful. But eventually, the mythic abilities that let characters break in game world physics and boundaries would be required to successfully fight enemies. There are seriously monsters that can't be damaged without having mythic, because they become immune to non-mythic sources of things.


Whiiiiich is why the books tend to give advice on dealing with running games without mythic, and why the GM should edit foes as necessary to make them vulnerable to non-mythic characters if mythic's not a part of the game. XD There's no need to run it EXACTLY as written if that doesn't work for your group.

Liberty's Edge

Guardian weak?

I was building a Guardian Stonelord that was going to be utterly insane, as far as martials go. I mean - having infinite AoOs, a 20' reach, and doing enough damage to flatten anything within a couple of CRs in one round seems pretty decent to me - oh, and couple that with being able to take the damage of a steamroller at full speed with hardly a scratch?

Weak? Really?


EldonG wrote:

Guardian weak?

I was building a Guardian Stonelord that was going to be utterly insane, as far as martials go. I mean - having infinite AoOs, a 20' reach, and doing enough damage to flatten anything within a couple of CRs in one round seems pretty decent to me - oh, and couple that with being able to take the damage of a steamroller at full speed with hardly a scratch?

Weak? Really?

How do you get infinite Attacks of Opportunity? The most I'm seeing is Ever Ready, which gives you 3 more Attacks of Opportunity by Tier 9.

And note, while the Guardian may be weak compared to the other Mythic Paths, the most broke Mythic stuff are actually available for every Mythic character to take (Mythic Feats & Universal Path Abilities). That obscures things a bit, definitely.

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