By RAW, in Golarion, is abortion evil?


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion

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According to Jacobs, dwarves are lame and elves are the best.

I don't trust that guy.


Phasamara judges if you lived by your gods faith and creedo not if you are good or Evil.


Phasamara judges if you lived by your gods faith and credo not if you are good or Evil. She just decides if you get to go to your god not if your life had merit according to her standards.

Silver Crusade Contributor

Bard-Sader wrote:

I wonder how a campaign centered around taking down Pharasma would go...she would be make an interesting central villain.

Obviously the heroes don't fight her directly, but I'd probably have them go on quests to cut off her sources of power and worship.

One way is to paint it as fate v. free will.

See God of War II, where the implication is that the death of the Fates will unchain humanity from the Fates' control - letting them choose their own destiny. I could see that as the central conceit for a campaign with Pharasma as the villain.

Dark Archive

Bard-Sader wrote:

I wonder how a campaign centered around taking down Pharasma would go...she would be make an interesting central villain.

Obviously the heroes don't fight her directly, but I'd probably have them go on quests to cut off her sources of power and worship.

1) There's no way to hide this from her.

2) If you get rid of her, Groetus will probably slam into the Material and kill everything anyway.

In any event, the answer to your thread topic is no - one neutral church not liking something doesn't make it universally evil.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Kobold Cleaver wrote:

According to Jacobs, dwarves are lame and elves are the best.

I don't trust that guy.

To be fair, stereotypical dwarves are pretty lame. I mean, some people for some reason play dwarves the exact same way each time. Its weird when you hear stories of supposedly good aligned dwarves that act CN because player thinks they like fighting, are easily insulted(yet have no problem insulting every other race) and are stubborn as hell.

Silver Crusade

Psyren wrote:
Bard-Sader wrote:

I wonder how a campaign centered around taking down Pharasma would go...she would be make an interesting central villain.

Obviously the heroes don't fight her directly, but I'd probably have them go on quests to cut off her sources of power and worship.

1) There's no way to hide this from her.

2) If you get rid of her, Groetus will probably slam into the Material and kill everything anyway.

3) The gods of Golarion do not derive their power from worship. A forgotten god is potentially every bit as powerful as any of the prime gods, so cutting her off from worshippers means nothing.

4) Pharisma is literally the most powerful deity in the pantheon, the only way you could get away with thwarting her is if she deliberately lets you.


5) Which she might, but you gotta wonder if a god who enforces her agency so casually is really worth a campaign taking her down. Is this like Mount Everest?


Well there goes my idea for an AP culminating in the abortion of a Spawn of Rovagug gestating in the Pit of Gormuz...


Garrett Guillotte wrote:
Bard-Sader wrote:
In any case, I wonder how Pharasma view Samsarans. Annoyed that their souls get to cheat and stand in their own circular lines?
She doesn't beef with reincarnation by nature because every soul eventually reaches the Boneyard. I think that's in Pyramid (which isn't in front of me, unfortunately). In rare cases she even reincarnates souls herself, or holds souls in the Boneyard for resurrection when she knows that soul's fate isn't fulfilled (which also makes me question why she'd have such a problem with a soul arriving sooner than she expected, since she can just throw them back).

Maybe she gets super annoyed that she has to constantly throw them back and just wants the mortals to make her work easier for a change?


RDM42 wrote:
No good can come from this thread. None.

I am in complete agreement.

The board can't even handle a goblin baby discussion, this is much greater controversy.

Silver Crusade

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Scythia wrote:
RDM42 wrote:
No good can come from this thread. None.

I am in complete agreement.

The board can't even handle a goblin baby discussion, this is much greater controversy.

And yet the board has been handling it pretty well for the better part of a week.


Scythia wrote:
RDM42 wrote:
No good can come from this thread. None.

I am in complete agreement.

The board can't even handle a goblin baby discussion, this is much greater controversy.

i actually don't understand the baby goblin thing. Why is it even controversial, and why is it people people to not post maturely if this grass hasn't devolved into flame wars?

Also, who is Groetus?


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Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Groetus is the god of the End Times of the Golarion setting. See here.


LazarX wrote:
Bard-Sader wrote:
Yet adventurers who plain shift I to Hell can we what happens and remember everything...
Because you're not dead. You see and experience what the living do... Petitioners experience the afterlife in ways the living can't imagine... or encompass.

Share memory negates that. Oh they're dead? Thanatopic spell. It's very easy for a mortal wizard or cleric above lvl 13 to learn almost every 'afterlife secret' with a few spells. Between scrying working over planes, plane shift, planar adaptation, share memory, dominate monster, and the fact that mortals can go to the Positive energy plane and gods can't... yeah. It's not at all hard to learn the metaphysical secrets I'd imagine.

I'm much more interested in that twin idea, if souls enter the body at conception instead of at another point, or at birth. Because that can have some very interesting plot hooks and metaphysical ideas and concepts. Let alone triplets or more.

For example, if the soul splits and 'fill's the two bodies by growing, what does that say for a Lich? What about a Lich twin? Does a lich that's a twin effectively have two phylacteries if their twin is still alive because they share the same original soul? Can the lich use their twin for other phylactery related magics?

Another question... how does possession work on a pregnant woman? Or magic jar? What about Trap the Soul?

Also, why in the world aren't Lamashtan priestesses using planar binding to capture and rape celestials specifically to get pregnant so they can laugh at paladins who hit them and fall instantly for killing an innately good soul? You can't kill a hostage to get to the bad guy as a paladin, so you can't kill a pregnant evil priestess either, it's the same situation. I mean sure, Lamashtan's don't have much in the way of brains generally, but even they have to have figured that one out.


Jalase wrote:
Garrett Guillotte wrote:
Bard-Sader wrote:
In any case, I wonder how Pharasma view Samsarans. Annoyed that their souls get to cheat and stand in their own circular lines?
She doesn't beef with reincarnation by nature because every soul eventually reaches the Boneyard. I think that's in Pyramid (which isn't in front of me, unfortunately). In rare cases she even reincarnates souls herself, or holds souls in the Boneyard for resurrection when she knows that soul's fate isn't fulfilled (which also makes me question why she'd have such a problem with a soul arriving sooner than she expected, since she can just throw them back).
Maybe she gets super annoyed that she has to constantly throw them back and just wants the mortals to make her work easier for a change?

Have you ever tried to throw a fish back into water? They're all squirmy and bitey and slimy and sometimes have sharp fins or barbs and all around it's just not fun either of you.


I've never had a DM throw a pregnant monster at me before. Would you be upset as a player of a DM did that?


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Bard-Sader wrote:
I've never had a DM throw a pregnant monster at me before. Would you be upset as a player of a DM did that?

It would depend on the circumstances, I'd imagine.

Definitely would be a thing to provoke careful consideration at a roleplay table, but also a thing for 'potential extra points' at a Death Vagrant table...


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What I've learned from this thread is that while Pharasma might not be evil, she is awful.


Agreed with the above, and wanted to add my voice to the "what a neutral god dislikes is not necessarily evil" chorus.

(Don't wanna get into the when-is-a-soul question.)

Pharasma's tenets, as the goddess of fate, have always struck me as rather similar to a code of non-intervention. Undeath disrupts the cycle of life and death (which is why she dislikes it, but NOT necessarily why it's evil in Golarion terms). So (arguably, from her/her priests' point of view) could abortion. Heck, so could normal contraception...maybe there's a LN Pharasmin fringe that opposes any sort of birth control.

On that note: Pharasma can, and presumably does, have NE priests. So...not everything she's opposed to can be intrinsically evil.


A neutral deity I reckon knows what is good and what is evil, but from her perspective neither is more desirably than the other. Instead, she pursues her portfolio with reference to neither.

So she does some things that good-aligned people see as evil, and she upholds some things that evil-aligned people see as repugnantly good. In Pharasma's eyes, she simply does not care, as she references neither in her decision-making. Whether that makes her 'good' or 'evil' in the eyes of those who are guided by such tenets, or 'good' or 'evil' on a more cosmic level, is simply irrelevant to her.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Neutral??!

Silver Crusade

Doomed Hero wrote:

What I've learned from this thread is that while Pharasma might not be evil, she is awful.

The TN gods have always been more horrible in my mind than even the CE deities. The Evil gods make no bones about who and what they are, they are proud of their morality. The TN do just as many horrible things, but they either do not care or (worse) believe these actions are in the interest of balance. As far as I'm concerned, the two most awful beings in the Golarion cosmology are Pharisma and Nethys.


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Nethys is, I'm thinking, too completely obsessed by magic to even notice. And magic is used for good things as well as bad.

As for Pharasma, it may not be so much that she doesn't care as that it's not her responsibility. There are afterall 8(?) good aligned gods. We ask our undertakers to undertake, (if that's a word), not go around healing people or rescuing them - we have doctors and nurses and rescue people as well. It seems to me that her tasks - dealing with the births and deaths of mortal souls - doesn't leave any time for any other concerns.

Terry Pratchett's Reaper Man is about what happens on Discworld when Death is sacked and the few days before a new one forms, when nobody dies...


Chief Cook and Bottlewasher wrote:


As for Pharasma, it may not be so much that she doesn't care as that it's not her responsibility.

So what you're saying is Pharasma is the deific equivalent of that guy who looks at a car wreck and does nothing but film the accident even as the car catches fire and the people inside start dying.

"Lol, not MY problem, that's what firemen are for!"

Sounds pretty awful to me, even if it isn't technically evil.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Rynjin wrote:
So what you're saying is Pharasma is the deific equivalent of that guy who looks at a car wreck and does nothing but film the accident even as the car catches fire and the people inside start dying.

You've got at least a partial idea why her most famous inquisitor despises her so much.


Yeah, Paizo definitely has (or inherited) some funny ideas about neutrality. In mortal morality, even in the game, someone who willingly murdered over a drunken oath broken would be Lawful Evil. In D&D, that's Lawful Neutral, and we call it a kolyarut. Gorum, Gozreh, Nethys and Pharasma are all classic examples of "If I burn down this orphanage but spare this one, we call it even." Gorum isn't even really that, of course. He's just a psychotic dick who encourages horrid bloodshed.

You just have to accept that NPC morality is different from PC morality in a lot of ways, especially when it comes to gods and outsiders. :P


In alot of cases it comes down to whether you think apathy is evil. I personally feel that "true neutrality" as defined in the d20 alignment system is in fact evil, but within the moral framework of the game, when it comes to GMing, I accept that it is not.

This is why when I roll up characters, they are almost never 'neutral' on the good/evil axis.


I don't think Pharasma is evil, more that as arbiter of souls she has to remain a unbiased observer. She has the final say on what soul goes where. Since souls are the principle source of a God or faction's power (since souls form outsiders which in turn swell the ranks of natives of that plane), any favoritism on her part would cause the whole system to fall apart.


MMCJawa wrote:

I don't think Pharasma is evil, more that as arbiter of souls she has to remain a unbiased observer. She has the final say on what soul goes where. Since souls are the principle source of a God or faction's power (since souls form outsiders which in turn swell the ranks of natives of that plane), any favoritism on her part would cause the whole system to fall apart.

Wrong. Since every deity BUT her, including many of the evil ones were against Rovagug, and she still didn't step in to help out. So it's not even a "the system will break down" thing since the entire system turned against one guy and she still deigned not interfere. And I don't believe he had any "soul based" servants to begin with.

It's her personal preference, nothing more.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Rynjin wrote:
MMCJawa wrote:

I don't think Pharasma is evil, more that as arbiter of souls she has to remain a unbiased observer. She has the final say on what soul goes where. Since souls are the principle source of a God or faction's power (since souls form outsiders which in turn swell the ranks of natives of that plane), any favoritism on her part would cause the whole system to fall apart.

Wrong. Since every deity BUT her, including many of the evil ones were against Rovagug, and she still didn't step in to help out. So it's not even a "the system will break down" thing since the entire system turned against one guy and she still deigned not interfere. And I don't believe he had any "soul based" servants to begin with.

It's her personal preference, nothing more.

A confusing thing about the Paizo gods is Jacobs insistence that they have influence and are worshipped on worlds other than Golarion.

If that's the case for Pharasma, a world dying is just nothing more than more souls to be judged on an already nigh infinite line. Since her portfolio is death, the destruction of Golarion does nothing but put her ahead.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Bard-Sader wrote:

Ok, so here is the logic.

1) Pharasma, the goddess of death, births, Fate, and arbiter of souls, says that Abortion is evil (an abomination). It is written in the sinner Sea Gods book.

Having just re-read the Pharasma section, I have found exactly ZERO references to Abortion in it. So please enlighten us to where you found that text?

Silver Crusade

LazarX wrote:
Bard-Sader wrote:

Ok, so here is the logic.

1) Pharasma, the goddess of death, births, Fate, and arbiter of souls, says that Abortion is evil (an abomination). It is written in the sinner Sea Gods book.

Having just re-read the Pharasma section, I have found exactly ZERO references to Abortion in it. So please enlighten us to where you found that text?
Inner Sea Gods, pg 118 wrote:
on the whole she believes killing the unborn is an abomination, for it sends the infant soul to the afterlife before it has a chance to fulfill its destiny.

It's been referenced several times in the thread.

Sovereign Court

She doesn't gain anything from the destruction of Golarion. Golarion being destroyed is like the hoover dam exploding: she'd immediately have to deal with a huge influx of souls... or ten years from now, anyhow, as time does weird things in the Astral, and it's unknown if the journey of a soul in the river of soul actually take seconds or thousands of years, it's a mystery.

In fact, since she's more concerned about the journeys of souls or the preventing of said journey, Golarion being kaboomed might have drawn and huge sigh from her, at least, because it's the nest for so many souls to be birthed/transferred from the positive energy plane. Those "nests" no longer existing, that positive energy i.e. raw souls must now migrate to other worlds (in other words, the bloody river of souls has now been diverted, but not stopped). It sucks, but it's part of the cosmic ecosystem and she accepts that.

So, she doesn't think abortion is evil more than a beaver hates looking at his fresh dam being taken down by a human farmer. She shrugs and builds another dam. The water will at some point make it to the ocean. She does have midwives in her faith though, because anything that helps the river move along is good to her. What she can't accept is the destruction of souls or the permanent imprisonment, undeath, etc. Since it's hard to say at which point a soul bonds to a newborn, it's prudent for her faith to try to prevent abortion, as only the goddess knows if the young soul is destroyed or just diverted to another vessel at any one time (and because mortals are fallible, and not omniscient, the low risk policy is always the best policy)

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Isonaroc wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Bard-Sader wrote:

Ok, so here is the logic.

1) Pharasma, the goddess of death, births, Fate, and arbiter of souls, says that Abortion is evil (an abomination). It is written in the sinner Sea Gods book.

Having just re-read the Pharasma section, I have found exactly ZERO references to Abortion in it. So please enlighten us to where you found that text?
Inner Sea Gods, pg 118 wrote:
on the whole she believes killing the unborn is an abomination, for it sends the infant soul to the afterlife before it has a chance to fulfill its destiny.
It's been referenced several times in the thread.

That just means that Pharasma does not approve, not that it's evil. Pharasma is the allocator of the dead, she doesn't set the rules for good or evil. And has been demonstrated before, she's not Holy Mary either.

Also, killing of the unborn just doesn't mean abortion.. it can also refer to killing a pregnant mother, since her baby dies with her. so this covers things such as having hunters refrain from taking pregnant does as well.

Silver Crusade

LazarX wrote:
That just means that Pharasma does not approve, not that it's evil. Pharasma is the allocator of the dead, she doesn't set the rules for good or evil. And has been demonstrated before, she's not Holy Mary either.

Yes, we know. This was brought up in the thread already.

Quote:
Also, killing of the unborn just doesn't mean abortion.. it can also refer to killing a pregnant mother, since her baby dies with her. so this covers things such as having hunters refrain from taking pregnant does as well.

True in the case of people, as far as I know animals (at least standard animals) don't have souls the same way that intelligent creatures do. I'd guess Pharasma doesn't care about what sort of game a hunter kills.

However, this is all aside the point, as killing pregnant women is not germane to the discussion beyond how it relates to abortion. The question was about abortion specifically.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Given that abortion is a hotly contested topic between Pro and Anti-Choice in real life, it's best something not dwelling upon in game.


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LazarX wrote:
Given that abortion is a hotly contested topic between Pro and Anti-Choice in real life, it's best something not dwelling upon in game.

There have been a couple of efforts to link this thread to RL politics and beliefs on both sides of that particular discussion.

For the most part, civility and free discourse has thrived in this thread, with little of such comparison.

That is to say, the topic has remained *On Golarion* and *what Golarion deities believe/think/want*, and remained mature and reasoned for the most part.


Rynjin wrote:
Chief Cook and Bottlewasher wrote:


As for Pharasma, it may not be so much that she doesn't care as that it's not her responsibility.

So what you're saying is Pharasma is the deific equivalent of that guy who looks at a car wreck and does nothing but film the accident even as the car catches fire and the people inside start dying.

"Lol, not MY problem, that's what firemen are for!"

Sounds pretty awful to me, even if it isn't technically evil.

Assuming she is doing nothing. It depends on the consequences if she stops what she's doing. What if other people will die instead if she helps?

Perhaps the equivalent of Atlas looking at it and saying "Someone else will have to help with that - I'm holding up the world here!'


Rynjin wrote:
Chief Cook and Bottlewasher wrote:


As for Pharasma, it may not be so much that she doesn't care as that it's not her responsibility.

So what you're saying is Pharasma is the deific equivalent of that guy who looks at a car wreck and does nothing but film the accident even as the car catches fire and the people inside start dying.

"Lol, not MY problem, that's what firemen are for!"

Sounds pretty awful to me, even if it isn't technically evil.

If anything, I suspect sitting back and watching is part of Pharasma's actual job duties.

She's knows how everything is supposed to turn out, and she won't directly interfere with that.

(She probably something as a conflict of interest as goddess of life & death and as goddess of fate - for example, as the death goddess, she's revolted by people becoming undead; as the fate goddess, she's obliged to let it happen anyways.)

Now, indirectly interfering? There're reasons why even the Alpha & Omega likes having mortal agents.

Pharasma won't stop the apocalypse herself, but she'll back up a follower who's trying to stop it all the way to the bitter end.

Huh. And now I wonder if all those souls going to Groteus are volunteers.

Executive Editor

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Bard-Sader wrote:


So, is this paizo's intended statement? That in Golarion, abortion is evil?

Folks can talk about disagreements between the gods and their opinions on morality all they want—I'm heartily in favor of such debates—but since you asked about whether "abortion is evil on Golarion" is Paizo's intended statement, there's an easy answer:

No.

No, Pharasma's opinion was not intended to represent Paizo's absolute statement on the morality of abortion. We have not made such a statement (either pro or con), nor do I suspect we ever will. While many of us are passionate about our own personal opinions on such matters, I doubt even the entire creative team is on the same page.

So in short: you're welcome to borrow our ten-foot-pole, because we won't be using it to touch this issue. :)

Sovereign Court

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Don't tempt people into "borrowing" your pole James... :P

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