Bonus Teamwork Feats for Holy Tactician.


Rules Questions


So I'm still designing my Holy Tactician, and I've com across something that's kind of annoying, and I wanted to check everyone else's ruling on it.
(This is for PFS, but if I can't make it work there I might use this character somewhere else)

Quote:

Battlefield Presence (Su)

At 3rd level, a tactician can direct her allies in battle, granting each ally within 30 feet one teamwork feat she possesses as a bonus feat as a standard action. All allies must receive the same feat, but do not need to meet the prerequisites of this bonus feat. This ability does not function if the paladin is flat-footed or unconscious. Allies must be able to see and hear the holy tactician in order to gain this benefit. Changing the bonus feat granted is a swift action.

This ability replaces aura of courage.

My problem here is that technically my Paladin can only grant her allies her Bonus feats to her allies. I can't take teamwork feats at other levels if I want to be able to use them with this ability, and have to rely on only the bonus feats I get at levels 3, 7 & 11.

My question here concerns this: Since it says "...she possesses as a bonus feat", and doesn't say "...she possesses as a bonus feat gained from this class", can I use bonus feats from elsewhere with my Battlefield Presence ability?
For example:
Humans get a bonus feat at level 1.
Fighters get bonus feats at most levels.

Or if you have a problem with those, what about the bonus teamwork feat gained by taking Holy Guide? (which as far as I know is compatible with Holy Tactician) This would be a bonus feat from the same class.

If there's already an FAQ about this a link would be great, otherwise anyone's thoughts would be appreciated.


MrCharisma wrote:

So I'm still designing my Holy Tactician, and I've com across something that's kind of annoying, and I wanted to check everyone else's ruling on it.

(This is for PFS, but if I can't make it work there I might use this character somewhere else)

Quote:

Battlefield Presence (Su)

At 3rd level, a tactician can direct her allies in battle, granting each ally within 30 feet one teamwork feat she possesses as a bonus feat as a standard action. All allies must receive the same feat, but do not need to meet the prerequisites of this bonus feat. This ability does not function if the paladin is flat-footed or unconscious. Allies must be able to see and hear the holy tactician in order to gain this benefit. Changing the bonus feat granted is a swift action.

This ability replaces aura of courage.

My problem here is that technically my Paladin can only grant her allies her Bonus feats to her allies. I can't take teamwork feats at other levels if I want to be able to use them with this ability, and have to rely on only the bonus feats I get at levels 3, 7 & 11.

I believe that sentence is saying the feat is granted 'as a bonus feat' to your teammates rather than saying that the feat needs to be one of your bonus feats. I can see how the wording is ambiguous, however. It depends where you put the emphasis.

IE you are reading is this way:

"30 feet one teamwork feat she possesses as a bonus feat, as a standard action"

And I am reading it this way

"30 feet one teamwork feat she possesses, as a bonus feat, as a standard action."

Neither are necessarily incorrect as far as I can see. I read it this way because the language then continues to refer to the granted feat as the 'bonus feat' IE and 'do not need to meet the prerequisites of this bonus feat' 'changing the bonus feat granted' which to me implies the feat is a 'bonus feat' for your allies, not for you.

If you have a steady PFS GM I would ask him/her for their or the VC's interpretation of this sentence. I would otherwise perhaps expect table variation.


Blakmane that actually seems more likely the RAI, thanks for pointing that out.

I think strictly (grammatically) speaking, the way I interpreted it is correct until someone edits it to add some commas.

Everyone I've asked about this hadn't even noticed the "bonus feat" requirement and said they'd all house rule it so it didn't matter anyway.

I haven't actually played in PFS yet but I've been invited to join a group, so I don't have a regular GM. I'll see my friends can come up with.

Thanks for the quick feedback, that (hopefully) makes this character way easier to build =D


MrCharisma wrote:


I think strictly (grammatically) speaking, the way I interpreted it is correct until someone edits it to add some commas.

You might be right. Unfortunately, pathfinder doesn't interact well with strict rules parsing without interpretation. Paizo has adopted a a 'prose-like' mechanics dialogue in order to make their books more casually readable - however, this causes issues when faced with ambiguous sentences as you can't necessarily break them down and parse them by their components like you can with some other (admittedly drier) systems. I believe this is one such scenario, where one interpretation, although perhaps strictly grammatically more 'correct', makes less sense RAI and raises a whole bunch of questions easily solved by just interpreting the sentence the other way.

If you were making this for PFS I would just be aware that a new GM might potentially rule against you - but I would also expect, even in PFS, for GMs to either fail to notice the possible discrepancy or be lenient regardless. You can just design your character so the most useful teamwork feats such as outflank are in the bonus feat slots - that way the entire build isn't invalidated if you have an unpleasant GM.


Basing my interpretation on how the Tactician works for Cavaliers, Fighters(Drill Sergeant or Tactician), I'd suppose it only works with feats you got as bonus feats, as the Greater Tactician feature you get at 17th level allows you to grant any of your teamwork feats, not only those you got through the Tactician class feature.


Blakmane wrote:
You might be right...

Don't get me wrong, I'm MUCH happier to take your interpretation. I'm fairly sure that's what they meant too, this is more like me pointing out a spelling error than telling you you're wrong.

But you're right, I probably should take the important feats as my bonus ones just in case (kind of annoying because "outflank" requires a +4BAB, which means I can't take it at level 3).

Elicoor wrote:
Basing my interpretation on how the Tactician works for Cavaliers, Fighters(Drill Sergeant or Tactician), I'd suppose it only works with feats you got as bonus feats, as the Greater Tactician feature you get at 17th level allows you to grant any of your teamwork feats, not only those you got through the Tactician class feature.

That's a valid interpretation, and possibly the correct one (that's what i thought too).

However it's worth noting that the Cavalier ability is completely unambiguous in it's wording:

Quote:

Tactician (Ex)

At 1st level, a cavalier receives a teamwork feat as a bonus feat ... the cavalier can grant THIS feat to all allies within 30 feet ....
Quote:

Greater Tactician (Ex)

At 9th level ... The cavalier can grant THIS feat to his allies using the tactician ability...

And then opens it up to any teamwork feat at level 17.

Whereas the Holy Tactician ability is a bit more open to interpretation.

That said, let's assume you're right Elicoor, what's your opinion on using my bonus Human feat? or dipping in Fighter? or using the feat gained from Holy Guide?

(As a side note, my interpretation of Holy Guide/Holy Tactician is that I can't use the Holy Guide's ability to grant a teamwork feat to allies using Smite Evil, because I have Weal's Champion instead of Smite Evil. But the Teamwork Feat gained would work with Battlefield presence just fine. It means I can't stack 2 teamwork feats on my party, but I'm less restricted in uses per day. This is all strict reading of RAW, meaning it's probably not how it was intended at all, but that's what I took from it)


everything in class assumes solo classing. So any questionable wording like this it is assumed a (granted from this class) is inserted where needed.
This ability is like cavalier's tactician which is 1 feat for like 9 levels or something.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

I would only allow you to share teamwork feats you got as bonus feats for tactician-like class features. So, Holy Guide would work, but not fighter or Human.

What kind of build are you making that you need more than one or two teamwork options?

Grand Lodge

Well this archetype just got way less interesting.

@KingOfAnything I'm guessing it's not about giving them at once (well, I'd hope not). It's about options.

Oh crap, this thing is throwing out spells. Here's +1 to all saves for each adjacent ally (shake it off).

Man, this thing keeps trying to grab (overrun, trip, whatever) us. Here's a +2 (or +4) bonus to your CMD (Coordinated Defense).

Or my favorite, man that guy really likes making our enemies provoke AoOs, we should all get an AoO from that (Paired Opportunists).


I think the interpretation is wrong. I see this feat as saying it provides one team work feat to her allies, as a bonus feat, as a standard action.

Meaning your allies receive one of your teamwork feats as a bonus feat to them. But you can only share one of your feats at a time and not different team work feats you possess to different party members


wilder79 wrote:

I think the interpretation is wrong. I see this feat as saying it provides one team work feat to her allies, as a bonus feat, as a standard action.

Meaning your allies receive one of your teamwork feats as a bonus feat to them. But you can only share one of your feats at a time and not different team work feats you possess to different party members

Yup, I agree with everything you just said, I'm not sure why you thought I meant something else. I did write that last post really late last night though, so I apologize if the wording was ambiguous.

My Question relates as to which feats I CAN share:
If I take a teamwork feat at level 5 as my standard level 5 feat, can I switch to that? - Depends on where the comma they left out is (but probably not).
If I take Shake it off as my bonus feat at level 3 (Holy Tactician) and Outflank as my bonus feat at level 6 (Holy guide), can I use Outflank with my Battlefield Presence (Holy Tactician) ability?

claudekennilol wrote:
I'm guessing it's not about giving them at once (well, I'd hope not). It's about options.

Yup, exactly.

KingOfAnything wrote:

I would only allow you to share teamwork feats you got as bonus feats for tactician-like class features. So, Holy Guide would work, but not fighter or Human.

What kind of build are you making that you need more than one or two teamwork options?

That's pretty much exactly how I feel about it, but I wanted to get some consensus.

As for my build, I just wanted to be able to provide options. I'm thinking something like Shake It Off at level 3, I take a Sohei dip at level 5 (always act in the first round), then Lookout at level 7 (Bonus Holy Guide L6 feat) & Outflank at level 8 (Bonus Holy Tactician L7 feat).
But this build obviously depends a bit on which feats I can use with Battlefield Presence.
(For Lookout, Here is my interpretation of how it works with Battlefield Presence)

Chess Pwn wrote:

everything in class assumes solo classing. So any questionable wording like this it is assumed a (granted from this class) is inserted where needed.

This ability is like cavalier's tactician which is 1 feat for like 9 levels or something.

I feel like you're right, but where does the bonus feat from Holy Guide fall? It's still a feat from the same class, can I use it in conjunction with Battlefield Presence?

Thanks everyone for your input =)
Feel free to completely disagree with me as well. I posted this here because I'm looking for answers, so I'm happy to get feedback from anyone and everyone.


claudekennilol wrote:

Well this archetype just got way less interesting.

@KingOfAnything I'm guessing it's not about giving them at once (well, I'd hope not). It's about options.

Oh crap, this thing is throwing out spells. Here's +1 to all saves for each adjacent ally (shake it off).

Man, this thing keeps trying to grab (overrun, trip, whatever) us. Here's a +2 (or +4) bonus to your CMD (Coordinated Defense).

Or my favorite, man that guy really likes making our enemies provoke AoOs, we should all get an AoO from that (Paired Opportunists).

Eh. It has the bonus feat in the exact right place for coordinated charge without the need for fiddling with multiclasses.

I mean...that is practically pseudo pounce, for your whole party. A chance, 1/round, to move outside of your turn, putting you right next to the guy you want to cut up when your next turn comes up. Eats up swift actions though, but a lot of your party's melee types won't care (fighters, rangers, etc).


lemeres wrote:
Eh. It has the bonus feat in the exact right place for coordinated charge without the need for fiddling with multiclasses

Coordinated Charge is good, but you need +10BAB, which means I won't be getting it till level 11 (or 12 if I multi-class). I also get Guide The Battle at level 8 (or 9) which lets me move the team out-of-turn somewhat anyway.

Quote:

Guide the Battle (Ex)

At 8th level, the paladin can direct her allies into an advantageous position once per round as a move action. Each ally (if physically able to) can move 5 feet without expending an action. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The allies must be able to see or hear the paladin in order to make this movement and cannot be flat-footed. At 15th level, her allies can make this 5-foot move and ignore difficult terrain.
This ability replaces aura of resolve.

Really I haven't decided on which teamwork feats I want, this thread is more about working out how many I'll have to choose from.


MrCharisma wrote:
lemeres wrote:
Eh. It has the bonus feat in the exact right place for coordinated charge without the need for fiddling with multiclasses

Coordinated Charge is good, but you need +10BAB, which means I won't be getting it till level 11 (or 12 if I multi-class). I also get Guide The Battle at level 8 (or 9) which lets me move the team out-of-turn somewhat anyway.

Quote:

Guide the Battle (Ex)

At 8th level, the paladin can direct her allies into an advantageous position once per round as a move action. Each ally (if physically able to) can move 5 feet without expending an action. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The allies must be able to see or hear the paladin in order to make this movement and cannot be flat-footed. At 15th level, her allies can make this 5-foot move and ignore difficult terrain.
This ability replaces aura of resolve.
Really I haven't decided on which teamwork feats I want, this thread is more about working out how many I'll have to choose from.

Fair enough. But it is worth mentioning since cavaliers can't get that feat very well on their tactician ability unless they fiddle with multiclasses (since the closest bonus feat comes at level 9).

And having multiple options for moving your party around is not a bad thing. Charge is good for big movements in straight lines, but guide the battle is good for small moves and angles. It is comparing a knight and a queen in chess (quite literally, now that I think about it; guide the battle can allow a diagonal 5' step off turn, and then a straight 5' step on turn, completely mirror a knight's movement) each has their advantages adn disadvantages.


lemeres wrote:
It is comparing a knight and a queen in chess (quite literally, now that I think about it; guide the battle can allow a diagonal 5' step off turn, and then a straight 5' step on turn, completely mirror a knight's movement) each has their advantages adn disadvantages.

Haha, I like the analogy. I become the King of the board (mostly useless, but everyone has to defend me)

And you're right, they're both useful. I haven't really been looking into what TW feat I'd want at lvl 11/12, since I figured I'd have played at least 10 levels by then and I can work out what would best fit with the rest of the build by then.
I usually like to work out the first 7-8 levels fairly well since most of my ideas for characters don't full come online till then. I will definitely consider Coordinated charge though.
(It's kind of weird, because i feel like TW feats really synergize well with each other, but having a class like this means I have to pick the feats that work separately. They have to compliment each other, rather than synergize.)

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Bonus Teamwork Feats for Holy Tactician. All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.