[Please Errata this] Sorcerer Bloodline - Psychic


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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shroudb wrote:

To get back to the OP in a more civil way.

You request an errata on an ability hat clearly works and postpones your death for up to 20h when you die.

Giving you plenty of time to find aa way to ressurect yourself.

Why?

Why do you think that a perfectly working ability needs errata?

Because I have seen something similar way back in Psionics. I also think if would be a cool thing if the sorcerer could(more like would have to) wear the body of his enemy. I think that would be a great setup for even greater story ("I am with you guys, I swear :D").


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shroudb wrote:

To get back to the OP in a more civil way.

You request an errata on an ability hat clearly works and postpones your death for up to 20h when you die.

Giving you plenty of time to find aa way to ressurect yourself.

Why?

Why do you think that a perfectly working ability needs errata?

tbh this way is so underwhelming that the first time I did really read Major Mind Swap and now I'm shocked that wasn't that way.


Mineral Water wrote:
Claxon wrote:

Now, that was much better than arguing or saying mean things.

But regardless of such a restriction in summon monster (I don't play anything with more than 4th level spell casting) you can still get around it with gate or other spells.

And the whole point of it was to demonstrate the plethora of ways in which you could get around the problem of the spell effect ending and your death, several hours after you take over the creature's body.

...sigh, read the 9th post in this forum.

...sigh, I read your post where you reposted the rules of Summon Monster 1. And you are right, that by the rules a summoned monster cannot cast spells or use SLAs that have expensive material components. As someone who doesn't play anything above a 4th level caster, I'm not familiar with that rule because I just don't ever use summoned monsters.

However, the 9th post says the same thing as your quoting of the spell. Which has nothing to do with what I said in my above post as I said you should use Gate or other spells to get around that restriction. Gate is not a summon monster spell, and does not have that restriction to what the creature is allowed to do with it's spell casting. You might need to bargain with it to get it to do it. You'll probably have to pay it in addition to paying for the raise dead.

But again, the point is that your problem was "Oh no you'll die if this isn't changed!" and everyone said, "Nah, you have plenty of ways to prevent your death."

So care to explain what purpose exactly I was supposed to find in looking at the 9th post of the thread?


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I believe his point was that this ability is pretty crappy for a full caster capstone.

It's closer in power to something Paizo might give a monk.

Community & Digital Content Director

Removed a series of back and forth posts. Accusing others of being "trolls" and baiting isn't OK here.


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Oh heavens to Betsy! Murgatroyd even!

Whatever shall we do! The capstone power that almost no one ever reaches isn't quite as earth shattering as other classes with 9th level casting (the already most powerful and earth shattering abilities ever)!

Sorry, maybe I shouldn't be sarcastic. It's works just fine even though maybe it isn't quite as powerful as some would like. Really, it's a blessing in disguise though. Because if it were Major Mind swap they'd have to be the same race as you. It's probably unlikely that the killing you at 20th level is the same race as you. The only real letdown is that it isn't a permanent effect that enables you to permanently steal the new body. I really don't see it as a problem. It's still a pretty damn cool ability to basically cheat death no matter what.


Mineral Water wrote:


So that is (25,000 / 500)+1 = 51 points of strength damage and you need at least one point of strength to be conscious... Could you please explain me, how come all of you Sorcerers have 52 points of Strength? I must be playing this game wrong.

Should have read my list:

9 Base STR (but see below)
+10 Form of the Dragon 3
+10 Blood Rage
+2 Succubus Boon (Ideally off a Simulacrum, but a quick summon works to).
+6 enhancement (Belt of Physical Perfection, make it yourself on the cheap.)
+8 Inherent (Blood Reservoir of Physical Prowess is a steal for 2k Price on the cheap.)
+6 Ring of Inner Fortitude (effectively) =
51 or 25,000 worth of material components and 1 STR left (cause it would suck to fall to 0 while casting).

Please note that the above gets even easier with Magic Jar/Marionette Possession.


Anzyr wrote:
Mineral Water wrote:


So that is (25,000 / 500)+1 = 51 points of strength damage and you need at least one point of strength to be conscious... Could you please explain me, how come all of you Sorcerers have 52 points of Strength? I must be playing this game wrong.

Should have read my list:

9 Base STR (but see below)
+10 Form of the Dragon 3
+10 Blood Rage
+2 Succubus Boon (Ideally off a Simulacrum, but a quick summon works to).
+6 enhancement (Belt of Physical Perfection, make it yourself on the cheap.)
+8 Inherent (Blood Reservoir of Physical Prowess is a steal for 2k Price on the cheap.)
+6 Ring of Inner Fortitude (effectively) =
51 or 25,000 worth of material components and 1 STR left (cause it would suck to fall to 0 while casting).

Please note that the above gets even easier with Magic Jar/Marionette Possession.

Ring of Inner Fortitude won't work. It prevents ability damage and Blood Money relies on you taking said damage.

Quote:
Spellcasters who do not have blood cannot cast blood money, and those who are immune to Strength damage (such as undead spellcasters) cannot use blood money to create valuable material components.
Also, please explain to me how are you activating magic item (Blood Reservoir of Physical Prowess) in the form of a Huge dragon
Quote:
Items that require activation cannot be used while you maintain that form. While in such a form - link

EDIT: Also you need 51 strength to cast the spell (look at that formula) and then 1 to stay conscious so that makes 52.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Wait, the capstone isn't permanent? I thought it was permanent.


Mineral Water wrote:
Also, please explain to me how are you activating magic item (Blood Reservoir of Physical Prowess) in the form of a Huge dragon
Quote:
Items that require activation cannot be used while you maintain that form. While in such a form - link

Obviously it's a Human's Ankle Ring designed to be also be able to be worn by a huge dragon as a claw ring. Take ring off before Dragonform, put back on afterwards.


Anzyr, he's right on the requisite strength.

Blood Money consumes 1 point of strength in addition to the strength-per-gold-equivalence.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Wouldn't swapping to major mind swap be a huge nerf to that ability? I mean, mind swap works against any creature not immune to mind-affecting effects and the like, and major mind swap only works against a creature of your race, not even anything of your type...I mean, maybe in a very humanocentric campaign where almost all your enemies are human it would be an improvement, but I think it would be close to useless in most other campaigns...am I missing something?


Luthorne wrote:
Wouldn't swapping to major mind swap be a huge nerf to that ability? I mean, mind swap works against any creature not immune to mind-affecting effects and the like, and major mind swap only works against a creature of your race, not even anything of your type...I mean, maybe in a very humanocentric campaign where almost all your enemies are human it would be an improvement, but I think it would be close to useless in most other campaigns...am I missing something?

It's permanent.


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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
My Self wrote:
Luthorne wrote:
Wouldn't swapping to major mind swap be a huge nerf to that ability? I mean, mind swap works against any creature not immune to mind-affecting effects and the like, and major mind swap only works against a creature of your race, not even anything of your type...I mean, maybe in a very humanocentric campaign where almost all your enemies are human it would be an improvement, but I think it would be close to useless in most other campaigns...am I missing something?
It's permanent.

Yeah, I know that, but what's the point if it's not going to work most of the time? You can only target the creature that was going to kill you...


Scroll of (Meta-Feat-Enhanced) Breath of Life from a decent caster could give at least 30HP. (49 max for CL9)

If you want BoL once a day, have Determination cast on your Haramaki or Kilt

OR Wondrous Item First Aid Gloves at least gets you it twice (or other healing)

Plus Death Ward to help against Death effects.

But seriously, level 20 is EoC: something like this is probably only going to happen once a campaign.

It's like not having an optimized party when you run into that first shadow/troll/etc. Retreat, equip the gear, and move on.

I don't see the complaint that you can't do it the other 19 levels...


One of them is certainly an error, you can't have 500-999 cost one value and 1000-1500 cost the next, it should either be 501-1000 and 1001 to 1500 OR 500-999 and 1000-1499


kyrt-ryder wrote:
One of them is certainly an error, you can't have 500-999 cost one value and 1000-1500 cost the next, it should either be 501-1000 and 1001 to 1500 OR 500-999 and 1000-1499

I'm pretty certain after reading the text over and over again to make sure I wasn't missing anything, the second one is the wrong one. I could be wrong though.


Valantrix1 wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:
One of them is certainly an error, you can't have 500-999 cost one value and 1000-1500 cost the next, it should either be 501-1000 and 1001 to 1500 OR 500-999 and 1000-1499
I'm pretty certain after reading the text over and over again to make sure I wasn't missing anything, the second one is the wrong one. I could be wrong though.

Yeah, the key clause is 'plus a further point of damage for every full 500 gp of the component's value.'

I concur.

@ Anzyr: read the spell very carefully. It charges you 1 point of strength just for the privilege of casting it, then every full 500 GP thereafter increases the cost by 1.


A limited wish would suffice for a raise dead. 6500gp, 14 str loss form blood money, so minimum 15 str required.

With buffs, 15 STR is remarkably easy to achieve - you don't even need items. Giant form 2 and base 7 str gets you there. Or blood rage (the spell) and deal some damage to yourself (bonus points if you are in a borrowed body).

End of the day, you have options. 5000gp is not much to pay to negate death, especially at level 20, and even if you want to be cheap about it blood money gives you more than enough options to get around the cost.

And none of this changes the fact that the ability in question works just fine. No errata needed.

Community & Digital Content Director

Removed a few more posts. Be cool to each other, folks.


Mineral Water wrote:
Serisan wrote:

Here's the counterargument you're looking for, Mineral Water:

You kill my body, but I Mind Swap as an immediate action. I wait a round next to my corpse (or finish the combat, whatever). Now, I cast Blood Money -> Wish to Resurrect myself. I'm not concerned about the str damage because I can cast while paralyzed anyway. As soon as my next turn comes up, I dismiss the Mind Swap.

Let's see Blood money:
Quote:

Blood Money

School transmutation; Level magus 1, sorcerer/wizard 1, witch 1
CASTING

Casting Time 1 swift action
Components V, S
EFFECT

Range 0 ft.
Effect 1 material component
Duration Instantaneous

DESCRIPTION

You cast blood money just before casting another spell. As part of this spell's casting, you must cut one of your hands, releasing a stream of blood that causes you to take 1d6 points of damage. When you cast another spell in that same round, your blood transforms into one material component of your choice required by that second spell. Even valuable components worth more than 1 gp can be created, but creating such material components requires an additional cost of 1 point of Strength damage, plus a further point of damage for every full 500 gp of the component's value (so a component worth 500–999 gp costs a total of 2 points, 1,000–1,500 costs 3, etc.). You cannot create magic items with blood money.

For example, a sorcerer with the spell stoneskin prepared could cast blood money to create the 250 gp worth of diamond dust required by that spell, taking 1d6 points of damage and 1 point of Strength damage in the process.

Material components created by blood money transform back into blood at the end of the round if they have not been used as a material component. Spellcasters who do not have blood cannot cast blood money, and those who are immune to Strength damage (such as undead spellcasters) cannot use blood money to create valuable material components.

So that is (25,000 / 500)+1 = 51 points of strength damage and you need...

Since you asked:

No Magic Jar Required:

Starting STR: 12

SPELL: Form of the Dragon III = +10 size bonus to STR
SPELL: Blood Rage = +10 morale bonus to STR
SPELL: Heart of the Mammoth = +8 enhancement bonus to STR
SPELL: Eagle Soul = +4 Sacred Bonus to STR

ITEM: Blood Reservoir of Physical Prowess = +8 Inherent Bonus to STR

TOTAL: +40 STR
End STR: 52

STR needed to cast Wish: 50 (51 to not be paralyzed)

Of course, Magic Jar, and even the ability in contention it seems, makes things a LOT easier.


Serisan wrote:

This is what I get for not re-reading the strength entry - I thought it was paralyzed, not unconscious.

You don't worry much about the strength damage because you're inflicting it to the new body. You can instead Limited Wish for a paulty 4 strength damage to get Raise Dead. You might even consider doing some bad things to the host body in the meantime.

it was in 3.5, Paizo swapped everything to unconscious or dead.


kyrt-ryder wrote:

Anzyr, he's right on the requisite strength.

Blood Money consumes 1 point of strength in addition to the strength-per-gold-equivalence.

Blood Money wrote:


As part of this spell's casting, you must cut one of your hands, releasing a stream of blood that causes you to take 1d6 points of damage.

The initial cost is 1d6 damage.

Blood Money wrote:
When you cast another spell in that same round, your blood transforms into one material component of your choice required by that second spell.

Next line, not relevant but quoting for completeness.

Blood Money wrote:
Even valuable components worth more than 1 gp can be created, but creating such material components requires an additional cost of 1 point of Strength damage, plus a further point of damage for every full 500 gp of the component's value (so a component worth 500–999 gp costs a total of 2 points, 1,000–1,500 costs 3, etc.)

Here's where people are getting confused the first additional cost is to replace any component worth more than 1 gp, up to 500 gp. Note that the spell then clarifies that the *TOTAL* STR point cost for 1,000-1,5000 is 3 STR. That includes that first STR payment which is essentially covering the 2 gp to 500 gp range. Note the bold above. If the Total STR cost for 1,000 to 1,500 is 3, then the total STR cost for 25,000 GP is as I have said 50.

Therefore: The required STR to cast a Wish with Blood Money and not go unconscious is 51.


Read the spell text more carefully Anzyr.

Quote:
Even valuable components worth more than 1 gp can be created, but creating such material components requires an additional cost of 1 point of Strength damage

We're in agreement thus far. Now read the next part.

Quote:
plus a further point of damage for every full 500 gp of the component's value (so a component worth 500–999 gp costs a total of 2 points

The error you're making here Anzyr, is that the first point is for GP cost between 1 and 499.

plus a further point of damage for every full 500 gp of the component's value

GP up to 499 costs 1

500 up to 999 costs 2

1000 up to 1499 costs 3

etc


kyrt-ryder wrote:

Read the spell text more carefully Anzyr.

Quote:
Even valuable components worth more than 1 gp can be created, but creating such material components requires an additional cost of 1 point of Strength damage

We're in agreement thus far. Now read the next part.

Quote:
plus a further point of damage for every full 500 gp of the component's value (so a component worth 500–999 gp costs a total of 2 points

The error you're making here Anzyr, is that the first point is for GP cost between 1 and 499.

plus a further point of damage for every full 500 gp of the component's value

GP up to 499 costs 1

500 up to 999 costs 2

1000 up to 1499 costs 3

etc

GP up to 499 is not every "full 500 GP" of the component value. It is only 499. The range given for 2 total STR 500-999 is a typo. The total for 3 STR 1,000 - 1,5000 is correct. As it is 3 "full 500 gp" values.


Of course it isn't Anzyr.

You pay one point plus a further point of damage for every full 500 gp

500 is a full 500. You already paid one point and now you pay one further for each full 500 gold.


kyrt-ryder wrote:

Of course it isn't Anzyr.

You pay one point plus a further point of damage for every full 500 gp

500 is a full 500. You already paid one point and now you pay one further for each full 500 gold.

Explain how 3 Total STR is 1,000-,1500 then?


Anzyr wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:

Of course it isn't Anzyr.

You pay one point plus a further point of damage for every full 500 gp

500 is a full 500. You already paid one point and now you pay one further for each full 500 gold.

Explain how 3 Total STR is 1,000-,1500 then?

Typographical error. It's supposed to read 1,000-1,499, the next full 500 is 1500 and actually costs 4 total STR


kyrt-ryder wrote:
Anzyr wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:

Of course it isn't Anzyr.

You pay one point plus a further point of damage for every full 500 gp

500 is a full 500. You already paid one point and now you pay one further for each full 500 gold.

Explain how 3 Total STR is 1,000-,1500 then?

Typographical error. It's supposed to read 1,000-1,499, the next full 500 is 1500 and actually costs 4 total STR

Since the base is 1 GP for 1d6 damage, I would argue that a "full 500" means each STR point (including that original) gives up to 500 GP and that the 500-999 is in error. Because otherwise the first step would be 2 gp - 499 which is no way, shape or form 500 GP.


'A full 500' is not '500 beyond 1'


kyrt-ryder wrote:
'A full 500' is not '500 beyond 1'

Agreed but it should be at least say... 500 GP.


I would prefer to have Mindswap actually work than have Greater Mindswap not work on many/most enemies.

But really, please tone down the entitlement... There is plenty of classes who don't get a real capstone at all, or something lame.
Barbarian: +2 TO RAGE
Cleric: ABSOLUTELY NOTHING
Wizard: BONUS FEAT

FYI, "Because I think it would be cool"/"I prefer how other RPGs handle similar things" isn't a reason to tag your thread "Please Errata This".
Although doing so, even for a REAL obvious Errata issue, does clearly denote you as ignoring community standards,
where Paizo has clearly said that such thread titles are not helpful or wanted, and they are the ones you want to help you, right...?


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In the end if the day, it is just a request of:

"I want an ability to be upgraded because I think it's not strong enough"

When said ability is stronger than a LOT of capstones, I find that request beyond unreasonable.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

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Capstones aren't always meant to be optimal. They're meant to be cool. And swapping minds with your killer to get them killed and then use their body to raise yourself from the dead is really cool. Plus, most players I know would not want to get stuck in their enemy's body forever. In fact, my players wouldn't use this capstone at all if it worked like major mind swap.


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Quandary wrote:
Wizard: BONUS FEAT

That's not how do you spell immortality

More than entitlement are expectations. Sorcerer bloodlines are supposed to be roughly equal to each other

For example:

Celestial: Flight at will, speak all languuages, 3 immunities and 2 resistances

Abyssal: Immunities, resistances and Telepathy of any language

Aberrant: Immunity to precision damage, blindsight and DR 5/-

Psychic: When you die you cast a level 5-6 spell that can fail and is a temporary effect. ...yay?


Entryhazard wrote:
Quandary wrote:
Wizard: BONUS FEAT

That's not how do you spell immortality

More than entitlement are expectations. Sorcerer bloodlines are supposed to be roughly equal to each other

For example:

Celestial: Flight at will, speak all languuages, 3 immunities and 2 resistances

Abyssal: Immunities, resistances and Telepathy of any language

Aberrant: Immunity to precision damage, blindsight and DR 5/-

Psychic: When you die you cast a level 5-6 spell that can fail and is a temporary effect. ...yay?

only that it actually is:

"whenever you die, you don't die (probably). Instead you kill your slayer and get ~1 day to slay your opponents and raise yourself. You can do that unlimited times/day"

That is similar, or even MORE powerful compared to immortality. And certainly much more powerful than measly resistances and r you can get with lvl 2-3 spells.


... especially when that immortality doesn't stop you from dying of old age.....


Milo v3 wrote:
... especially when that immortality doesn't stop you from dying of old age.....

This is what you are looking for if you want true immortality.

"I am immortal! I have inside me blood of kings!"


Entryhazard wrote:
Quandary wrote:
Wizard: BONUS FEAT

That's not how do you spell immortality

More than entitlement are expectations. Sorcerer bloodlines are supposed to be roughly equal to each other

For example:

Celestial: Flight at will, speak all languuages, 3 immunities and 2 resistances

Abyssal: Immunities, resistances and Telepathy of any language

Aberrant: Immunity to precision damage, blindsight and DR 5/-

Psychic: When you die you cast a level 5-6 spell that can fail and is a temporary effect. ...yay?

Basically this. Also there is Contingency to let almost anyone do the same as this 20 level capstone.


Milo v3 wrote:
... especially when that immortality doesn't stop you from dying of old age.....

From Sean K Reynold:

"And considering that the "timeless body" ability specifically says you still reach a point when you die from a maximum age, and the immortality and eternal youth discoveries do not, I do think it is as clear as I suggest. :)"


Mineral Water wrote:
Milo v3 wrote:
... especially when that immortality doesn't stop you from dying of old age.....

From Sean K Reynold:

"And considering that the "timeless body" ability specifically says you still reach a point when you die from a maximum age, and the immortality and eternal youth discoveries do not, I do think it is as clear as I suggest. :)"

Well he's wrong, as it's not clear. The Immortality discovery says it does x. The only reason to assume it does y is that it's named Immortality, which could simply mean they named it horribly.


Cyrad wrote:
Most players I know would not want to get stuck in their enemy's body forever. In fact, my players wouldn't use this capstone at all if it worked like major mind swap.

And there I think is the problem. I would rather have a cool niche things to let everybody choose, rather that having everything washed out for the majority of players. It also feels very "game-y". I would personally welcome far more spells and abilities which are both curse and blessing at the same time.

EDIT: Removed some quotes, added a sentence.
ADDITIONAL NOTE: I am thinking I could make a threat with some of my ideas, but considering how every single threat I make here basically turns into a flame war I seriously doubt it would be appreciated and the only people from Paizo who would every see it would be the mods coming to remove my comments.

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