If I remember correctly, when "on alert", characters are assumed to be taking 10 on perception checks without deliberately looking for something. If I remember right a DM can choose to use this to say "you detect this trap".
The DM can also do secret rolls and use that result, I think.
However, I as yet have no experience being a DM so I'm not entirely sure.
I'll only make a roll if the ask to search for traps, but just do one roll for the room they're in, at least for smaller rooms. Tunnels and large rooms I may divide up a bit.
No idea if that's the correct rules, but it works for my group.
Ask them if they're walking through the dungeon at a brisk walking face, or a slow, thorough trap-checking pace. If you expect them to call out every single square, you are doing it wrong.
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As I read the core rules, players have to look for traps explicitly. If they don't, they will walk into the trap. Fair enough, but then, that sort of forces the players to play it really safe, like "I look for traps at this square. I move to the square. I look for traps at the next square. I move to the next square..."
That's hardly fun.
For starters, searching isn't a square-by-square endeavor in Pathfinder. A given check gives you whatever is perceptible from where you're standing at the time (with modifiers for distance and other interferences, and remembering that a vision-only stimulus to which you don't have line of sight is an auto-fail).
As for your larger question of declared searches versus assumed searches, it's really a matter of figuring out what your group prefers.
Here's something to remember: What if you decided on declared searches, and someone said "Okay, then the whole time we're in this dungeon, if we're not in combat, then I'm stopping every 10ft to take 10 on a Perception check to search for traps, until I specify otherwise"? Now you're just right back to assumed searches, just with the player having to recite something beforehand.
So who cares? Just ask the players which way they'd prefer, and do it that way. Some feel shortchanged if they're not given a check automatically, others feel more immersed (and in the case of success, more accomplished) if they respond to a suspicious-looking area by declaring a search. Just talk to them; see what they like.
Jiggy is correct.
Perception is reactive. When they are at the trap, they get a perception roll. Those with Trap Spotter get two rolls, once when within 10' and again when at the trap.
That is how I've been interpreting the rules.
In my players, I see two styles of play:
have them move at half speed and give you a roll and that'll be the roll until they find a trap with it.
In my players, I see two styles of play:
"I just put up all my minute-per-level buffs! We need to get through this dungeon NOW, before they wear off!!!" I do NOT allow taking 10 on looking for traps for such groups, as they've specifically stated that they're moving as quickly as possible to preserve buffs. I consider this a "distraction" and they have to tell me when they're checking for secret doors, traps, and the like.
"We look into the room, cast Detect Magic, Detect Evil, and search for traps and secret doors." The cautious bunch. There's no way I want them rolling dice that many times, so I just tell them, "OK, you're being very cautious. Give me your highest take ten Perception check and you'll be using that AND Detect Magic AND Detect Evil in every single room. But you do realize that that's going to be slow, right? Along the lines of 2-3 minutes per room?" So far they have always said, "That's fine," so I've never had an issue with running it this way.
Moving at you base speed and using your other action to search isn't exactly super involved. It doesn't take that long to do. The minute/level buffs will be fine. Unless you for some reason would rule that moving and searching is "distracting" which would make no sense.
Moving at you base speed and using your other action to search isn't exactly super involved. It doesn't take that long to do. The minute/level buffs will be fine. Unless you for some reason would rule that moving and searching is "distracting" which would make no sense.In my players, I see two styles of play:
"I just put up all my minute-per-level buffs! We need to get through this dungeon NOW, before they wear off!!!" I do NOT allow taking 10 on looking for traps for such groups, as they've specifically stated that they're moving as quickly as possible to preserve buffs. I consider this a "distraction" and they have to tell me when they're checking for secret doors, traps, and the like.
"We look into the room, cast Detect Magic, Detect Evil, and search for traps and secret doors." The cautious bunch. There's no way I want them rolling dice that many times, so I just tell them, "OK, you're being very cautious. Give me your highest take ten Perception check and you'll be using that AND Detect Magic AND Detect Evil in every single room. But you do realize that that's going to be slow, right? Along the lines of 2-3 minutes per room?" So far they have always said, "That's fine," so I've never had an issue with running it this way.
It is not "super-involved", but it reduces you to half speed (half your round is being used by a standard action), has PCs casting spells every single round for dozens or even hundreds of rounds (I've seen references to long-term fatigue rules around this), and eliminates any leeway the GM has: Either he/she sets traps and secret doors so that taking 10 doesn't find them, or so that it does. The dungeon is nothing more than mechanics.
The OP asked, "How do you make things fun?", not, "What is the literal interpretation of the rules?"
I find that giving players two options ("fast and clueless" or "slow and careful") is fun for them, because they're making a conscious choice about the outcome, and the "slow and careful" group is more conservative with their buffs, while the "fast and clueless" group has more fun trying to pinpoint exactly where they should search.
Everyone has a different play style. Mine works for my groups.
Moving at you base speed and using your other action to search isn't exactly super involved. It doesn't take that long to do. The minute/level buffs will be fine. Unless you for some reason would rule that moving and searching is "distracting" which would make no sense.In my players, I see two styles of play:
"I just put up all my minute-per-level buffs! We need to get through this dungeon NOW, before they wear off!!!" I do NOT allow taking 10 on looking for traps for such groups, as they've specifically stated that they're moving as quickly as possible to preserve buffs. I consider this a "distraction" and they have to tell me when they're checking for secret doors, traps, and the like.
"We look into the room, cast Detect Magic, Detect Evil, and search for traps and secret doors." The cautious bunch. There's no way I want them rolling dice that many times, so I just tell them, "OK, you're being very cautious. Give me your highest take ten Perception check and you'll be using that AND Detect Magic AND Detect Evil in every single room. But you do realize that that's going to be slow, right? Along the lines of 2-3 minutes per room?" So far they have always said, "That's fine," so I've never had an issue with running it this way.
It is not "super-involved", but it reduces you to half speed (half your round is being used by a standard action), has PCs casting spells every single round for dozens or even hundreds of rounds (I've seen references to long-term fatigue rules around this), and eliminates any leeway the GM has: Either he/she sets traps and secret doors so that taking 10 doesn't find them, or so that it does. The dungeon is nothing more than mechanics.
The OP asked, "How do you make things fun?", not, "What is the literal interpretation of the rules?"
If someone is invested enough in Perception that taking 10 reveals traps and secret doors, that's the benefit of them investing in Perception. Your character being good at things you invested in being good at is fun. Your way denies characters the benefit of their investment in Perception, which is not what I would call fun.
And everything in the game is nothing more then mechanics. That's the whole point. If it doesn't have mechanics, it's magic tea party, not Pathfinder.
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I'll not go there, beyond that our best sessions are those that run 8 hours without a single die roll. My players have fun. I have fun. In our games, the mechanics are nothing more than the loose structure around which the story is built.
Since our play styles are obviously diametrically opposed, I'll simply re-state: This is what I do, my players enjoy it, and it works for us. Since the OP wanted options, I was providing one.
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I like the choice between fast and slow. If they have a trap spotter, that person gets to check even moving fast. I also ask if they are coordinating their search. This gives aid another bonuses, but it assumes that you are talking with one another which means people may overhear you.
Perception has two modes - reactive: if there is something to perceive I will make a perception check (or more likely call for one as I trust my players not to metagame a failure (and I'm lazy)) as a free action.
Active mode: move action to search an unspecified area (a wide empty area can be searched relatively easily, while you can only search a small section of a densely filled area). This is solely at the players request.
Opposed stealth gets one roll and I'll use that to determine at what point they perceive each other.
e.g. bad guy rolls Stealth of 20, good guys perception is 25 - good guys notice the bad guy when their 50' away.
If the players are sneaking as well and get a 22 stealth, and the bad guys get a perception check of 24 then the good guys have a 30' 'edge'.
Perception is a move action in most circumstances.
I stress this as a DM. If a player wants to roll every 10 feet to avoid penalties on what they see I am fine with that. WHat I have them do is show me the path they plan to take and then stop them if they notice something different as they make a series of rolls.
The reasons this matters is time. If I know you are coming I have time to prepare espcially if you move half your speed checking for everything and even more if you stealth as well.
I offer the players the opportunity to choose to take ten every ten feet, but they would be slowed down.
As a player I offer this to the DM when I have time to check my way(or think i have time).
Perception is a move action in most circumstances.
False.
Action: Most Perception checks are reactive, made in response to observable stimulus. Intentionally searching for stimulus is a move action.
So, normally you get a perception any time you would potentially detect something of interest. If someone invisible walks in, you get a perception roll.
Actively searching is a move action. When your buddy says "Hey! I think I heard something over there!", it is a move action to now search for the invisible person.
Further reading in the Traps section of environment backs up the idea of everyone getting a reactive check for any trap.
Creatures that succeed on a Perception check detect a trap before it is triggered. The DC of this check depends on the trap itself. Success generally indicates that the creature has detected the mechanism that activates the trap, such as a pressure plate, odd gears attached to a door handle, and the like. Beating this check by 5 or more also gives some indication of what the trap is designed
to do.
Even magical traps (on the next page) have language about detecting before triggered.
What Trap Spotter gives is another reactive check, when you are still 10' away. This allows the person with Trap Spotter to be in second rank and warn the person in front of them before the trap is triggered.
We have always just had people roll perception for free whenever the GM deems it appropriate...
If players declare they want to look around for stuff, they spend a move action...
It doesn't get any more complicated than that.
So even traps are free checks.
I think the reactive approach would be best, and less time consuming. Perception is a tricky skill to make work because if you over use it, all players will invest in it fully and basically negate the need for it.
If they are entering a tomb of some kind, don't be afraid to have NPCs warn the players of many dangers and booby traps. You could even have signs outside the dungeon/tomb/wherever.
If they decide to roll, never deny them their roll. If they waltz into a trap, depending on its trigger, it's supposed to go off with no check. At least, that's my experience.
I use a mild houserule. Everyone gets a perception check to notice traps if theyre about to set them off. If you aren't a trap sensing rogue, you take -10 unless you state that you're looking for traps. I'm also planning, in my next campaign, to roll perception checks ahead of time. A very, very long list of d20 results with a much shorter list of who's got what perception bonus next to it. So whenever anyone needs a perception check to notice something and I don't want metagaming to notice that there's something to percieve, or a player to know they rolled low, I can use the next roll on the list with their modifier and they won't know I'm plotting their
doomnext encounter.Although reading through bretls post, I seem to have a second opinion about my original house rule. I'll still be using the secret perception list, but substituting the -10 for what seems to be check two numbers for rogues instead of just one. That actually makes me feel quite a lot better about the whole thing.
The problem with such secret rolls is that you probably have not accounted for any temporary modifiers to the Per roll. Also the character may have re-rolls available that you cannot account for without asking. And lastly, if the entire party keeps blowing Per rolls the players will get highly suspicious and mildly cranky.
Perception is a move action in most circumstances.
False.
Action: Most Perception checks are reactive, made in response to observable stimulus. Intentionally searching for stimulus is a move action.So, normally you get a perception any time you would potentially detect something of interest. If someone invisible walks in, you get a perception roll.
True "Perception is a move action in most circumstances."
I do not know how much you play, but usually things are hidden before the PCs come in. IF someone is invisible or hidden before the PCs enter the room then they need to search for them.
Now the less common situation where something starts hiding in your presence or does something sneaky is a reaction and automatic.
Most of the time perception is used is on thing they are not reacting to but things they want to notice.
My reading of the skill description from the CRB is quite a bit different than yours is then. I would give a perception roll to someone entering a room with an invisible creature without any move-action searching. Perception is all the senses, so in the case of an invisible person they might notice a noise, the smell of their last meal, or a number of other fine details.
An ambush/surprise round is probably one of the most common perception checks, and that would be reactive.
Really though, you two are arguing over something very silly.
In a way, I wish perception was something that was written as "always on unless z,x or y conditions" as a rule.
Just for the sake of making it lot easier to manage, characters have a level of awareness and they notice things or not. In current rules, just perception rank + 10 is what you always have. Or maybe perception rank + 5 as what you always have for detecting stuff, stand still for a while to look around for a real bonus.
I never do traps because session have limited time sadly and the less is spent on worrying about traps and rolling silly amounts of perception, the better.
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Gm 1990, taking 10 takes just as long as a normal check (usually a move action, in this case). It's taking 20 that takes longer. 20 times longer, to be exact. So, I minute or two.
Just a minor nitpick.
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A broader note on traps is that they are far better if used as part of an encounter, rather than a standalone, where they just drain resources without usually being too interesting.
Ex: A pit trap that, when triggered, also cues the abushing kobolds to attack the ones outside the pit.
Or, a room that locks and begins to fill with water when a trap is sprung. Doesn't always have to have enemies, but at least a way to create drama. Bonus points for putting a few piranhas in the water though!