[Spoilers] What is known about Savith?

[Chromnos]

Just brushing up on Azlanti lore for a game next week and am trying to learn more about Savith. Thus far all I've been able to put together is that she was a powerful Azlanti hero who beheaded the serpent god Ydersius. She's depicted in one bit of art and appears to be weilding a scimitar or a Falcata. There's really no other information on her affiliations within Aslant society -- be its darker or more benevolent side. Nor does it seem we know what class she was -- fighter, paladin, or something along those lines seems appropriate, though.

So is there any more definite information on Savith that I'm missing?

[The Archive]

Inner Sea Combat tells us that she was a Fighter 20/Champion 6. She was the leader of the Azlanti army that went to fight the Serpentfolk in Garund's jungles. She also died due to Ydersius's poison shortly after the battle. She's the namesake of the lost city that a lot of the Serpent's Skull AP revolves around, which is also where her tomb lies.

There's not much more than that as far as I remember.

[Savith]

The important thing to remember, was that

Spoiler:

I was pretty awesome.

I was an Azlanti woman (that is, from the nation of Azlant) who defeated Ydersius (the jerk) for being a putz- er, I mean, for attempting to destroy humanity.

The jerk.

You may have seen me*, however, it's important to know, I didn't do it alone - I had good, strong devoted companions five of which (including my good friend, the Cyclops general Aveshai) was even entrusted with a lesser replica of my blade. The General's was named Eroeme.

Either way, I dropped a serpent god's face into lava. I rock.

Also, some weird guy already did a bit of sagacious research (as in, talking to the sages hypothetically in charge of all of reality), but, alas, little hard evidence was turned up.

I'm slippery like that.

Still, I hope that helps!

* Though that isn't what I was wearing when I fought him. See page 66 of Serpent's Skull; sadly it does not seem to be available online.

[Tacticslion]

...

Dropping words down for read-ability...

Just as a quick aside, glancing at the list of the gods of Azlant:

Spoiler:

- Abadar, as a god of cities and wealth rather than law; LN (presumably)
- Acavna, a goddess of battle and the moon who died prior to Earthfall; specifically, she sacrificed her life to save everyone, so "good" (and seemingly a tad chaotic) sounds correct
- Achaekek, god of monsters and natural disasters (unlike his modern role as god of assassination); though LE today, he was NE at the time
- Amaznen, main god of magic, outlawed in Thassilon, presumed killed during Earthfall; unknown, but sacrificed himself... because Acavna, his lover did; that sounds neutral
- Curchanus, god of travel, beasts, and endurance, survived Earthfall but killed by Lamashtu; definitively chaotic good
- Desna, seen as goddess of the stars; definitively chaotic good
- Groetus, apparently a late addition to the pantheon; chaotic neutral
- Nurgal, his worship suffered during the Age of Darkness; chaotic evil (demon lord, you know)
- Pharasma, seen as the patron of prophecies, she paid the price for being the bearer of bad news; neutral
- Shelyn patron of the arts; definitively chaotic good, along with her brother (before Dou-Bral became Zon-Kuthon) and father; her mother was supposedly Lawful Good, but I'm uncertain of her worship
- Zura, not worshipped openly; CE (demon lord, you know)

That paints a moderately chaotic-leaning society, or at least a heavily individualist-themed one.

This would also make sense in comparing ancient Azlant to their shunned neighbor Thassilon... which was (originally) a (supposedly) Lawful Neutral society devoted to a Lawful Evil goddess (and quickly almost immediately fell to Lawful Evil as a result).

That also makes sense that Aboleth infiltrators would want a slightly more chaotic society, so that they can more easily come and go without detection.

... that said, Eroeme is a lawful neutral blade, General Avashei is a lawful neutral guy, and Aroden (famed as "the last Azlanti") was lawful neutral as well (as was, to all appearances, his herald Arazni). That's a loooooooooooot of lingering "law" from a supposedly "chaotic-leaning" society.

So really, it's up to you - you'll need to make a decision, but I wanted to give you information to make that decision off of.

Enjoy!

[Chromnos]

Thanks guys! This is a great help! I now have a far better context than before. Although, as a player in Serpent's Skull, I'm trying for history and world color, not specific crunchy spoilers related to that AP (magic items and such). Probably should have mentioned that in the header. So yeah, just the general history stuff is great!

[Tacticslion]

Uh... oops. I... presumed you were a GM. My apologies! :/

(Flagged my posts for spoilers. Oops.)

[Chromnos]

It's ok. I clicked on the link. Saw a magic weapon of some kind (did see +2 but that's it). Then backed out. So no real harm done.

All the other stuff about Savith was great. And it's pretty amazingly clear she was a badass. The only mortal ever to defeat a God is nothing to sneeze at. I just wish there was more about her as a person. The more I find I don't know, the more I want to fill in the gaps.

Also, Azlanti civilization seems a confluence of contradictions to me. Influenced and manipulated by Aboleths, harboring demons who rose up among them (Zura) and yet also worshipping benevolent gods like Desna or civilization preservers like Aroden.

My character is a life oracle whose taken on the role of tank and healer in a party of strikers. I'm considering going down the holy vindicator route and it might be cool to develop some kind of spiritual link with Savith -- stigmata that look like the marks of serpent fang bites and ooze blood black with venom, for example.

The character is a half elf named Umbra. Her father was an anti-paladin whose bloodline descends from abyssally corrupted Azlanti. Her mother was an impoverished elf struggling to get by on the streets of Korvosa. She's a lawful good worshipper of Imodae. But she has dark urges which she's thus far been good at keeping under wraps. When she channels positive energy it comes out tainted with black and violet.

I'm thinking that the possible link, character development wise, is that Umbra's spirit and blood are tainted with abyssal 'poison' in much the same manner that Savith ultimately succumbed to Ydersius's poison. And, ironically, it's this link of taint and corruption that allows Umbra to serve Savith as her Vindicator.

Does it work?

[Tacticslion]

Sounds awesome! :D

[Tacticslion]

Thanks for adding spoiler tags, mods!

[Mark Moreland]

We'll have a bit more Savith info in the forthcoming Occult Realms book, particularly a new character option to allow her to help out modern-day adventurers.

[Tacticslion]

Oooooohhhhh...!

[Chromnos]

Fantastic to hear there's more support for the Savith interested on the way. Thx for chiming in! I'll definitely be checking it out!

So you guys don't think it's too much of a stretch setting up a holy vindicator of Savith, even if she's more martyred hero than god?

[Tacticslion]

No. In fact, in our game, while still definitely not a god, she's something akin to a super-saint with the touch of over a half-dozen different female deities on her for the sake of doing exactly what she did.

We said that her name meant "Hand of the Goddess(es)" and a player ("Liabeth" - semi-similar name) turned out to be her reincarnation - her soul having finally been processed enough/purged enough of the vile poisons from her mythic confrontation to be reborn into life and be "properly" judged.

This is strictly non-canonical, so it's not a spoiler.

[Chromnos]

Nice! Sounds like you have a highly developed setting. I particularly appreciate the active role of numerous goddesses in your interpretation. Hope my GM goes for it or, better yet, nabs some of the cool vibe you've cooked up. I sent him a link to this thread. So he may drop in.

[Bondsman]

GM here. I like the flavor of this. The other players have focused their backstories on more direct ties to the serpentfolk, so I like the variation of a player focusing on Savith. Among the other players, one is an escaped serpentfolk slave; another has some serpentfolk blood and may be an outcast from their society; a third had his home destroyed by serpentfolk.

Chromnos, we can discuss the mechanics of the class, but it sounds promising.

[Tacticslion]

Feel free to ask me to post stuff more publicly or by PM if you want to know any details. Good gaming!

EDIT: sigh, autocorrect/being on a phone. Sorry.

[Kalindlara]

Mark Moreland wrote:

We'll have a bit more Savith info in the forthcoming Occult Realms book, particularly a new character option to allow her to help out modern-day adventurers.

Now I'm really looking forward to Occult Realms! (I have a PC who was reincarnated as Savith herself.)

Serpent's Skull:

I tweaked the scroll from Book 1 into an Azlanti artifact as part of setting up the PCs' later mythic ascension.

[Tacticslion]

Sweet~!

Due to some back-story stuff and strange elements, my PC,

spoiler!:

... eventually woke up inside Savith's grave. She, herself, unbeknownst to her, during event on the island, had been turned into little more than an electrical/magical storm polymorphed (more or less) back into a half-elf. So she imbued the dead body of Savith with the physical and spiritual essence of her new body, to literally become Savith reincarnated, regaining her previous power. She renamed herself in her new life "Aranath" (the third name she's had which means "Hand of the Goddess(es)") and has re-vowed to fulfill her destiny... this time for good. That said, she only has a limited, if fairly large, time to do so in this form/life, due to the malevolent nature of the god-poisons still infecting her flesh... >.>

Perhaps time enough to finish two AP entries...?

[Chromnos]

Fantastic! I really like this mojo for the setting. So I'm glad you're considering it as an option, Bondsman. The notion of vindicating Savith, of serving as her agent in the mortal world, and of Savith's influence stretching out again beyond the realm of the dead just sparks with campaign story sweetness!

****
Grindy rules stuff...

I've never played a holy vindicator so I don't really have experience with how they compare to a full blown oracle. Looking at the prestige class, you get full base attack bonus, 1d10 hp, 3/4 casting, and some flavorful special abilities. The strongest of these are probably sacred shield (major boost to AC until you get hit by a rolled attack), the ability to continue advancing and improving channel energy, and stigmata which is a floating buff to hit, damage, AC (doesn't stack with sacred shield), or saves at the cost of ongoing bleed damage.

You lose mystery advancement for the levels you take in vindicator which means you also lose mystery bonus spells (ouch). You also lose favored class benefits from oracle. So the half elf Umbra couldn't take extra spells known.

Overall it seems like a downgrade to spell power, selection, and advancement, loss of extra revelations, loss of some revelation advancement, and slower curse advancement in favor of more melee tankish focus. For our group (ranger-archer, magus, rogue + Umbra), I think this works out very well. But I think the overall white room consensus (which admittedly biases toward the power of spells) is that oracle to oracle/Vindicator is a wash or even a slight power downgrade in net capability.

Umbra won't qualify for vindicator 1 until she reaches level 8 (bab 5+). She has to boost her knowledge religion skill and take the channel alignment feat at 7.

[Tacticslion]

It's a power-downgrade. But it's a really cool power downgrade!

GM Bondsman, unless he lets Chromnos know to check it:

Would it be uncouth for me to recommend Chromnos take Leadership? That could be an interesting method of utilizing and strengthening the PCs in the last several modules, literally gathering their followers for the... latter two APs' events.

EDIT: And Chromnos, you'd be pretty solid for touch-based spells. That includes all of your cure or inflict spells, which is pretty solid.

[Chromnos]

Yeah. It's a fun downgrade. More interested in story goodness and in working well with my party than in any perks.

[Bondsman]

Thanks for asking, TL. I'm fine with suggesting that idea to Chromnos... could be a great choice for Umbra.

One caveat: I'd prefer that Chromnos not open that spoiler in your post, so would you mind suggesting the option in another post (or else I will)?

Reason:

It's very helpful to suggest Leadership as a feat option, but I would prefer not to refer to the events of the last two modules. I think it will be more fun for the players if they don't have a hint of where things are heading--even though you were appropriately vague in your comment! A secondary issue is that the nature of our gaming is that we only get to game about once or twice a year, so I end up condensing/omitting some parts, and I don't yet know what I will need to change. That said, I still expect that your suggestion will be a good one for Umbra.

Thanks for weighing in. I think this is going to add some great flavor to our campaign.

[Tacticslion]

I'd be glad to, Bondsman, and I'll do so! Also: glad I can help!

So, Chromnos, I'd actually strongly suggest the Leadership feat for your character.

There are tons of RP-potential ways you could use this.

I mean, spoiler of nothing, there's always the idea of building up a "cult of Savith" if nothing else, given that you're an actual holy vindicator (so, you know, you literally "bleed miracles") devoted to her.

There are also a ton of other ways you could take it as well.

However, I think I should seal my mouth so that I spoil nothing. As already noted in this thread I can talk waaayyyy too much on accident.

For the record, the deities we had that had "tapped" Savith as their "Hand" in this were:

Just in case, this is spoiler'd; ask your GM:

- Acavana
- Easivra*
- Desna
- Gozreh (in the female aspect)
- Pharasma
- Shelyn
- Zura
- others that I can't currently find in my notes
[- note: it's possible that Desna and Gozreh were a singular "Shimye-Magalla" for purposes of this; my notes are no longer clear, and we certainly treat her that way now, in the game.

As Acavana and Easivra have both subsequently died**, and Zura is a CE uncaring demon lord, I'd ruled that, effectively, all three of these "dropped the ball" on Savith's slow purification of the divine poisons of Ydersius - though two of them were, you know, thoroughly justified, what with being dead and all (the third was an uncaring demon lord).

Anyway, as it turned out, the purging wasn't completed fast enough or fully enough to "save" much of Savith's left-over soul.

So, when she was reincarnated (as the daughter of two half-elves***), she was reduced to level 1, lacking her mythic, and wanted to become a bard. A devotee of Shelyn, she was promptly "dropped" into Shelyn's hands as "her problem" now, before the events of SS brought her back into the fore.

Due to the home-game shenanigans I noted earlier, and some others, we ended up with three Liabeths:
- one the "Liabeth" public persona that wed the important Paladin who succeeded Baron Ustilius (and who was secretly the part-Mwangi grandson of the racist old powerful rich woman, after her tryst with a native fella went bad and ended in betrayal), and became a kind of super-hero of Elader while resolving the racial tensions there
- one the "Liabeth" that was the personal head of the PF Society and the joint "Megacorp" the PCs founded by co-opting the local "rival" groups through extremely impressive diplomacy, magic, and chicanery; this was the one who went on the expedition, though it was something of a secret to Elader; she was basically a "clone body" gone independent
- one psychic clone-thing who ended up fused to a psychic clone-thing of Old Mage Jtambe^ in the Moon Rats of Savith-Yhi^^

* Not having full details at the time, we'd "determined" through (incorrect or incomplete) scholarship among our group that Easivra was female. We also thought she was known to the ancient Azlanti, but, in retrospect, I'm not sure she was.
** Well, as far as I can tell. Easivra seems to be dead. So much so that, in another game, we reincarnated her as a PC.
*** Sort of. Look, I'm a sadistic GM.
^ Heeeeeeeee'ssssss tttthhhheeeee BEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSST~!
^^ I'd, uh, added a whole subplot thing for one of my players who became mixed up with the wererat (there-rat!) and reincarnated ex-cannibal gnomes (... long story) to play up the later idea of the three-way opposition of snakes, undead, and rat/animal/monkey/etc-themed things. It worked out great, but said player ended up "borrowing" a bit of Liabeth to do <way too much non-home-game-info for you> and, through a mistake on their part, ended up kind of becoming a psychic replica of the Liabeth character. She found the moon rats (rats who become collectively sentient in moon-light, I made them psionic and magical as well, but only in the light of the moon) and found an ancient Will behind their strange antics in the city - Old Mage Jtambe. The remnant echo (a magical creation - the real Jtambe was alive somewhere, probably^^) explained his situation and problems, and the player - already going to leave, 'sacrificed' her new-self to become one with the rats-mind/Jtambe, and help them fulfill their needs, and become a powerful race that helped control the city for the remaining PCs. (Also, incidentally, created a new kind of CG wererat variant instead of the evil one.) This later spread over to the charau-kas, keches, and other primape-like creatures and recruited the entire (now were-rat) group to the cause of the PCs (by way of the subtly guiding MOON MIND influence... this was enormously helpful when the Liabeth PC, buffed to the nines, was polymorphed into a dire ape to challenge the King for his crown and throne (which worked, more or less, gaining the PCs half his traveling court - all of whom became wererats -, while the other half retreated to await the next "official" Gorilla King). They are now working on integrating the morlocks into that "rat/primate" group as well (making it a "rat/primate/morlock" group, I guess?), which... is being successful.
^^ AND ALWAYS WILL BE

Sorry for the excess of info, Bondsman. I, uh... I ramble. Please feel free to distribute, reuse, or discard, as desired. :D

[Kalindlara]

Tacticslion:

Easivra is a) male and b) not dead, technically.

According to Inner Sea Gods, he's categorized as "lost", the same way that Lissala is.

I was doing stuff with the return of Easivra in Council of Thieves, so I read everything I could.

[Tacticslion]

Yeah, for "a" we actually did the Council of Thieves AP (and hence that stuff) before Inner Sea Gods came out. Hence, I noted what we'd said, but also that we were wrong for that exact reason. :)

For "b" - hm, interesting. I didn't know that. Thanks!

[Bondsman]

Laughing while I'm reading your long post from yesterday, Tacticslion. Totally fine for Chromnos to open that one (and Kalindlara's post too). General knowledge of Golarion's gods seems fine, though I guess it must be potentially spoilerish, since the mods hid that info in an earlier post, didn't they?

[Mark Moreland]

Easivra:

In modern times, Easivra is primarily worshiped by the sabosan of the lost Mwangi city of Jaytirian, but for all intents and purposes, he's not a god most people have heard of. Worship of Sarenrae is so ubiquitous that he likely has no cults outside the sabosan of the Mwangi Expanse.

[Ron Lundeen]

If only Savith hadn't lost her badass poison-resistant shield, Savith's Iron! Well, at least you can pick it up--it's in Lost Treasures.

[Kalindlara]

Mark Moreland wrote:

Easivra:

In modern times, Easivra is primarily worshiped by the sabosan of the lost Mwangi city of Jaytirian, but for all intents and purposes, he's not a god most people have heard of. Worship of Sarenrae is so ubiquitous that he likely has no cults outside the sabosan of the Mwangi Expanse.

Hmm...

Easivra:

Vaults of Madness describes Easivra as "now-forgotten" even in the context of the sabosan, and offers no suggestion that any still follow him.

Inner Sea Gods merely notes that he enjoyed a large following in the Expanse millenia ago.

Council of Thieves remains incredibly sparse on details on the Dawn Eagle. All we get is a name and the existence of the rivalry...

Have I missed any sources?

So... this is the first I've heard of this. If it means we might - might - someday get more on Easivra, though, I'm all for it! ^_^

[Flynn Greywalker]

Mark Moreland wrote:

We'll have a bit more Savith info in the forthcoming Occult Realms book, particularly a new character option to allow her to help out modern-day adventurers.

Fun! I hope you guys intro some other fun NPCs