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I have this idea for creating a fairly simple alchemist archetype that essentially only grants a single class feature. I don't have the class feature written out in proper rules language, but the idea I think is rather simple to explain and grasp:
The alchemist gains a "wretch" that functions like a summoner's eidolon, using their class level as their summoner level. This is a standard eidolon, not the unchained version. However, unlike a regular eidolon, the wretch is not an outsider, but can instead have one of the following creature types: aberration, magical beast, construct or undead. The wretch's type will affect its HD size and how its BAB, saves, et cetera function, and it will gain all the traits of its type. Aberrations would gain extra evolution points like a wild caller's eidolon to make up for their creature type being rather weak. Furthermore, unlike a regular eidolon, a wretch responds normally to magical healing and, since it's not an outsider, is not subject to banishment or similar effects. Replacing a slain or lost wretch functions like replacing a familiar. A new wretch can have a different base form and completely new evolutions from the ones of the creature it is replacing. The wretch's share spells ability treats extracts like spells.
Now, obviously, one would probably exchange a few minor alchemist class features to do things like grant this archetype access to evolution surge via an extract, et cetera, and also create a few custom discoveries that mesh well with the Frankenstein theme of the archetype. But aside from this, what would be the most logical and balanced things to trade out in order to grant this? Should it replace both bombs and mutagens, or should mutagens be replaced by getting evolution surge infusions to inject the wretch with? I would just love to hear if anyone has an idea for how to do this in a balanced way. Obviously, it is a very cohesive and powerful ability, and thus might need to replace a whole slew of class features. I'm thinking that things like bond senses, maker's call, et cetera, could be made available via discoveries.
Anyway, if anyone has any ideas, please let me know. I think this would be a very neat archetype to have, for those who want a more visceral monster creator and don't like the planar flavor of the summoner.
Cheers,
- Gears
I'd definitely suggest losing both Mutagen and Bombs. The Eidolon is a very powerful mechanic, and an extremely versatile one. If you're wanting the Alchemist to keep his Extracts (which he should now have a clause that he should be able to use them on the Wretch without the discovery that allows him to share them with other PCs) then pretty much everything else should probably go.
Base it on the Promethean Alchemist and go from there. It replaces Bombs, Mutagen, Throw Anything, Brew Potion, and you get a companion that scales with your level. Its a construct (homunculus), but you can still use any of your extracts on it, even the ones that wouldnt normally effect constructs, like the healing ones.
Wouldn't it make more sense to use the summoner chassis and replace certain features with alchemist abilities?
@CupcakeNautilis: The promethean alchemist is fine, but it's too limited in scope for my taste. This is supposed to be a monster builder whose brutish creation fights for him. Bombs, which promethean alchemists keep, would be the first thing I'd axe. While the homunculus companion is fine, I'd much prefer basing the wretch on an eidolon. In essence, the alchemist herself is supposed to take more of a background role.
@Orthos: So your suggestion would be to basically let these guys have wretch and discoveries, losing every other class feature? I'm not actually opposed to that idea. Except in that case I would probably like to at least allow them to add the evolution surge line to their extract list for free. Yes, I think they should get "infusion but only to target your wretch" for free.
@Amanuensis: Possibly, except I really want to veer away from the summoner's "planar" flavor. So I wouldn't want things like maker's call or transposition to be automatically granted, but rather only to exist as selectable options. I also want these guys to be Int-based inventors, not Cha-based. The way I look at it, making this a summoner or alchemist archetype is about as complicated (since I'd definitely want them to still have access to discoveries for things like bottled ooze and other flavorful stuff), and since the flavor is more alchmy than summony I just thought an alchy archetype made more sense.
EDIT: Also, the point of this archetype isn't to base it on the actual Frankenstein. Hence the air quotes in the title. It's supposed to be a mad scientist who builds a monster. But since this is PF the monster will serve its master (though it could possibly gain an Ego score like a black blade), and I want to open up all four creature types mentioned in the OP (rather than restrict it to constructs, which would be more true to Frankenstein's flavor), since I feel both aberrations (fleshwarping), magical beasts (arcane experiments), constructs and undead are prime candidates for being "created".
Promethean Alchemists lose bombs.
Their creation fights for them completely.
@Orthos: So your suggestion would be to basically let these guys have wretch and discoveries, losing every other class feature? I'm not actually opposed to that idea. Except in that case I would probably like to at least allow them to add the evolution surge line to their extract list for free. Yes, I think they should get "infusion but only to target your wretch" for free.
Yeah there should be some slight shuffling of the Extract list, agreed.
And yeah forgot Discoveries, should probably add a few that are focused on the Wretch as well.
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@Secret Wizard: That's correct. I misread that. Apologies. All the same, I think I stated quite clearly other reasons for not wanting to base this archetype on that one.
@Orthos: Right. Yes, shuffling the extracts about a bit (losing bomb admixture stuff and gaining evo surge, etc.), and creating new discoveries to complement the pet, obviously. I'm thinking it would be cool to add ooze to the creature type options, making five in all. Ooze would need a new base form (I know I saw an ooze base form in some 3pp summoner supplement), but it seems too iconic not to add, so the extra work will be worth it.
Basically, this archetype should let you create a "golem", or one of the classic "created" magical beasts like owlbears, build-a-black-pudding, fleshwarp-flavored aberration and necrocraft deluxe. Aside from the discoveries, creating a few new custom evolutions would probably also be a good idea, focused more on flavor than power level, obviously, since eidolons be crazy, yo'.
Well, thanks everyone for the input. I think I have an idea of how to go forward with this and will start fiddling with the archetype. 'Theriurge' might be a good name, meaning 'monster maker' by analogy to 'theurge' meaning 'god maker'.
Keep us posted =)
Will do!
If you wanted an idea of how well it will work in play, I had a player run a necromancy/death-based oracle character that I created an undead creation ability using eidolon rules.
Can't find my notes, so I don't remember how I balanced the class with the gain, but in actual play it worked out pretty well using the undead type. It wasn't over the top, and it had some unique factors (the smell and spell radar pings prevented normal city use too much, and it was susceptible to all the undead spell stuff).
This was a low-int undead creature basically, so no real problem solving on it's own.
Since we are talking about a golem, crafted undead, or twisted beast creature, I'd suspect leaving it a low-int would be a good idea. That way it can only do limited protection while you sleep, and can't run off and do complicated solo missions.
Base it on the Promethean Alchemist and go from there. It replaces Bombs, Mutagen, Throw Anything, Brew Potion, and you get a companion that scales with your level.If I remember correctly, in the original Mary Shelley novel, Frankenstein actually declares himself to be a new Prometheus. Shelly was said to have based the character on Lord Bryon.
Off-topic post time!
Frankenstein was the doctor; the monster was generally just called "The Monster" although at one point he refers to himself as Adam but that's more an allusion to Adam from Genesis.
Prometheus is in the actual title of the book, which is "Frankenstein, or The Modern Prometheus"
Alright, so, there is a first draft of the Theriurge alchemist archetype available in my Base Class Archetypes folder, located here:
I won't post a direct link to the PDF, because I foresee some updates and tweaks, and so it'll be more convenient both for me and anyone wanting to read the doc to just refer to that folder, whither I will always make sure to upload the latest version.
Any and all views welcome! As you will notice, I have yet to create the custom discoveries. I'd love any suggestions in that area if anyone feels inspired, aside from general opinions on the archetype thus far.
Cheers,
- Gears
Wow, I really like this! Nice work Gears. This is something I've dreamed of for a while. I hope everything works out in the play test!
Maybe you've already taken this under consideration, seeing as you haven't uploaded any discoveries yet, but it might be cool to incorporate the Craft Construct, Grow Plant Creature, and Craft Ooze feats as new discoveries. This might be a bit overpowered, so you'd probably have to tinker with it. They should at least be made available, 'cause the standard alchemist as it is cannot obtain Craft Construct or Craft Ooze. I think it would fit really well thematically. Of course, you could just house rule that alchemist levels count as caster levels.
Another to consider is how Construct Modifications (from Ultimate Magic) interact with a construct therion.
All in all I really like your work! :)
I'm glad you think it looks promising. :)
I have to say though, wouldn't granting the theriurge access to Craft Construct, Craft Ooze, etc., as well as granting access to construct mods, sort of be gilding the lily? I mean, they're already able to create the most customizable and powerful pets within the whole ruleset (next to traditional eidolons, that is), and it just seems gratuitous to me. I suppose I wouldn't mind granting Craft Construct and such to allow you to create some smaller "minions" beside the main therion, but I have to be frank and say that's not really high on my list of priorities. I would much rather create new discoveries (and maybe a few further evolutions), to flesh out the actual theriurge-therion duo.
Anyway, thanks for reading and commenting. It's highly appreciated. We'll see what other suggestions come up (I have a parallel thread on the GiantITP boards too), and what we end up adding to the actual discovery list.
Cheers,
- Gears
Yeah, I thought it might be a much too, I just thought it fit well with the theme. Instead of just handing those feats out, you could you just allow the alchemist to gain these feats like any other caster would, prerequisites and all. If you're saying that in and of itself is too much, I can understand.
As for construct modifications, I more meant to ask, would adding modifications to a construct therion be an inherent impossibility? I believe as is it would be possible, by the rules for modifications, which is why I ask.
EDIT: I completely forgot about the Bottled Ooze extract discovery! Which, of course, is a watered-down version of Craft Ooze. An alchemist that can somehow get a hold on Handle Animal can get Grow Plant Creature normally, so the only feat normally inaccessible to an alchemist is Craft Construct.
EDIT2: I ALSO completely forgot about the Promethean Disciple discovery! Which basically grants Craft Construct. I guess my pleas were pointless. Carry on with your good work. :)
Well, the question about construct modifications is an interesting one. The RAW is definitely a bit murky, since it's unclear whether you can only add mods to things created via Create Construct or not. I don't think I want to add a clarification on this to the actual document; it sets a bad precedent for rules needing to be excessively long-winded to account for every niche possibility, which is something I'm against. I will say though that, as a GM, I personally wouldn't mind allowing someone with Create Construct to add mods to their construct therion. It costs money and time and, well, if the therion is wrecked all your gold goes down the drain. I would say it's up to GM discretion, and I wouldn't consider it either for or against the theriurge's RAI to allow or disallow it.
I do like some of the construct mods as concepts, though, and I might look into just creating them as discoveries. I'll have to mull that one over.
Hope that helps! :)
Cheers,
- Gears
You can modify a construct as long as you have Craft Construct and you created the construct in question.
I agree with others that you can kind of already play a Frankenstein alchemist using existing material.
Well that's great! Construct-mod away at your leisure, then! :)
Oh, you certainly do. I just think that archetype is boring. Which is why I made this one. I enjoy the eidolon mechanic far more than whatever they threw together for the Promethean Alchemist. I especially wanted to be able to make things other than constructs. As already stated, the "Frankenstein" in the title should be interpreted loosely, not as, "someone who can build a monster like Victor Frankenstein did in Mary Shelley's novel". :)
Cheers,
- Gears
I can respect that. I definitely understand not wanting long-winded rules for every "what if" possibility.
Anywho, glad I brought it to your attention, and I can't wait to see the final product! I'm generally uninterested in third-party or homebrew material, but this is definitely something I might use for a character, or in a campaign.
I'm hoping to solicit some suggestions for discoveries and possibly additional evos from all the smart, creative people on these boards, but in the meantime I'll also be trying to think some up myself. That's why I posted the unfinished version. At any rate, I'll post here as soon as major updates are made!
Cheers,
- Gears
Off-topic post time!
Frankenstein was the doctor; the monster was generally just called "The Monster" although at one point he refers to himself as Adam but that's more an allusion to Adam from Genesis.
Prometheus is in the actual title of the book, which is "Frankenstein, or The Modern Prometheus"
I was almost tempted to call both the archetype and its main class feature "theriurge", to be honest. "The theriurge's theriurge progresses like an eidolon, using the theriurge's class level as his summoner level to determine the abilities of the theriurge's theriurge"...
...then I though better of it! :)
Cheers,
- Gears
Here's a question, what would you have to do to turn your Frankenstein's monster into something that's truly alive? That sounds like a campaign closing question, but definitely a goal to push for through the game.
Well, that sounds very much to me like something that could conceivably be represented by a grand discovery, from a mechanical perspective, I mean. I'll have to try my hand at something like that!
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I just wanted to mention that I've now added a suite of discoveries for this archetype, and the file in the BC Archetypes folder (LINK) has been updated to reflect these. I'd be more than happy to add further discoveries (as well as new alchemical evos/base forms) if anyone's got any suggestions.
Cheers,
- Gears
The theriurge has now been updated to include a new base form, called the myriad base form, that allows you to gain a swarm therion from the get-go. I've also made some changes to the swarm form evolution (which this new base form gains for free) to make it more balanced. I also added on a high-level evolution to let you wear your therion like construct armor.
Cheers,
- Gears