Ferious Thune |
Played this last night. The fight on the dam was tough, but we got through it. We were high-tier with the 4-player adjustment, but with 3 characters in low tier. 6 6 6 4 4 3. I was the level 3 with my trip build Magus. We did have one character death, a 6th level fighter. He got caught at 5 hit points when things cycled back for the second round of breath weapons. I managed to live, mostly by hiding in the hut. The first breath weapon took me to 4 HPs. Fortunately the GM did alternate their breath weapons, so we didn't get hit twice in one round.
The fight would not have drug out so long if our Barbarian hadn't failed his save vs the slow. With a furious great ax, he was getting through the DR and doing good damage, but they dispelled his Fly, and it took him a while to catch back up.
I felt mostly useless, as It was a trip build against flying creatures. I didn't have any way to get through their DR (need to pick up a silver weapon until 5th level at least, when I'll be able to use Magus Arcana to make my bladed scarf +3. I have cold iron, but I didn't bother with silver. Likely even if I had a silver dagger, running up to one of the daemons when I only had 4 HPs in the hope of doing a d4 probably wouldn't have been wise.
What really tripped me up was my knowledge roll was only high enough to get one question (DR), so I didn't know what energy resistances or immunities they had. Were the breath weapons supposed to be fire, or are these the greater variety? The GM described them as electricity, so I incorrectly assumed the daemons must be immune. Therefore I never tried my Shocking Grasp. Even with a +1 CL from the ley line, it would have only been 4d6 (unless I crit), but at least something would have gotten through, unlike the Burning Hands or Glitterdust scroll I tried to throw at it. Ultimately, once I'd healed up, I just came out and started aiding another the Hunter's animal companion, which itself could only barely get through the DR with its bite.
It was a fun fight, though. Nice to have a challenge, and ultimately the fighter had enough prestige to cover his raise and restorations (we offered to chip in to pay for at least the restorations, but he wanted to use prestige). Thankfully we had the Barbarian, or we'd likely have wiped. I do wish I'd brought a higher level character. My level 7 would have pushed us to high tier no adjustment, though, and the level 4s were more afraid of that. Plus we wouldn't have had some of the knowledge skills or any arcane caster.
I really enjoyed this scenario. I look forward to part 2 and to running them both sometime soon.
Mark Stratton Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Indianapolis |
Of note, and something I only learned when discussing the monster with someone who has run Fane of Fangs. Those Ceustodaemons are actually really bad fliers - they have something like a +5 to fly in the low tier and a +4 in the high tier - so grounding them actually shouldn't be difficult for a lot of parties (or honestly they'll probably do it to themselves).
It should be +8 at low tier:
1) The spell gives them good maneuverability (+4)2) The spell also gives them a bonus of 1/2 CL, so that's another +4.
Unless I am misunderstanding it.
Pirate Rob |
Joe Ducey wrote:Of note, and something I only learned when discussing the monster with someone who has run Fane of Fangs. Those Ceustodaemons are actually really bad fliers - they have something like a +5 to fly in the low tier and a +4 in the high tier - so grounding them actually shouldn't be difficult for a lot of parties (or honestly they'll probably do it to themselves).It should be +8 at low tier:
1) The spell gives them good maneuverability (+4)
2) The spell also gives them a bonus of 1/2 CL, so that's another +4.Unless I am misunderstanding it.
Fly spell doesn't give maneuverability based fly bonus.
A creature with a natural fly speed receives a bonus (or penalty) on Fly skill checks depending on its maneuverability.
pauljathome |
Fly spell doesn't give maneuverability based fly bonus.
CRB wrote:A creature with a natural fly speed receives a bonus (or penalty) on Fly skill checks depending on its maneuverability.
I disagree. Its not clear but surely the fact that the fly spell specifically states that the flier gains good maneuverability strongly implies that this good maneuverability actually DOES something.
Rogue Eidolon |
5 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Here's the weird thing about it. As written, it seems it's only for natural fliers, but if so, then there is literally no effect of maneuverability whatsoever for magical fliers, so things like wings of lesser flying, which are currently priced as if their bad maneuverability is a drawback, get out of jail free.
andreww |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I disagree. Its not clear but surely the fact that the fly spell specifically states that the flier gains good maneuverability strongly implies that this good maneuverability actually DOES something.
I think it is a 3.5 legacy issue. Manoeuvrability in 3.x did actually have an impact on how you could move when flying which went away when the fly skill was introduced. Really the fly rules are just very clunky.
Mark Stratton Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Indianapolis |
Here's the weird thing about it. As written, it seems it's only for natural fliers, but if so, then there is literally no effect of maneuverability whatsoever for magical fliers, so things like wings of lesser flying, which are currently priced as if their bad maneuverability is a drawback, get out of jail free.
Given the fact that the spell specifically gives it a maneuverability rating, I think it only makes sense to apply the bonus for doing so. If it had a poor rating, the penalty would apply (as you indicated related to the pricing for a magic item.)
But perhaps the development team could take a look.
Rogue Eidolon Designer |
Rogue Eidolon wrote:Here's the weird thing about it. As written, it seems it's only for natural fliers, but if so, then there is literally no effect of maneuverability whatsoever for magical fliers, so things like wings of lesser flying, which are currently priced as if their bad maneuverability is a drawback, get out of jail free.Given the fact that the spell specifically gives it a maneuverability rating, I think it only makes sense to apply the bonus for doing so. If it had a poor rating, the penalty would apply (as you indicated related to the pricing for a magic item.)
But perhaps the development team could take a look.
That was always my inclination as well (otherwise why would it matter, anyway?), but then the rules say it's for natural fly speeds only, putting it into table variation. Maybe someone should start a thread in the rules forum; if or when there's enough interest in the FAQ queue, I'd be happy to have us Design team members take a look at FAQing it.
Mark Stratton Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Indianapolis |
andreww |
That was always my inclination as well (otherwise why would it matter, anyway?), but then the rules say it's for natural fly speeds only, putting it into table variation. Maybe someone should start a thread in the rules forum; if or when there's enough interest in the FAQ queue, I'd be happy to have us Design team members take a look at FAQing it.
Hi Mark,
If you do end up looking at the fly rules could you also consider taking a look at how magical flight works. Lots of the references to what happens while flying seem to assume winged flight and don't really touch on how magical flight works.
It is unclear for example if people flying using magic have to make fly checks when hit in combat or if they collide with an object. Similarly, it isn't very clear what happens when someone flying using magic fails a fly check.
Really the flight rules are just a bit of a jumble. I have even seen some people try to use this line:
"Attacked While Flying: You are not considered flat-footed while flying"
To try and suggest you can never be flat footed if you are flying.
Lawrence Smith 2 |
Regarding the hallow effects in C2. The Stupa: What is the final, fourth effect, i.e., the single spell effect fixed to the site?
Finally, you can fix a single spell effect to the hallowed site. The spell effect lasts for 1 year and functions throughout the entire site, regardless of the normal duration and area or effect. You may designate whether the effect applies to all creatures, creatures who share your faith or alignment, or creatures who adhere to another faith or alignment. At the end of the year, the chosen effect lapses, but it can be renewed or replaced simply by casting hallow again.
Spell effects that may be tied to a hallowed site include aid, bane, bless, cause fear, darkness, daylight, death ward, deeper darkness, detect evil, detect magic, dimensional anchor, discern lies, dispel magic, endure elements, freedom of movement, invisibility purge, protection from energy, remove fear, resist energy, silence, tongues, and zone of truth. Saving throws and spell resistance might apply to these spells' effects.
If the party's having a tough time, resist energy (electricity) or even protection from energy (electricity) would increase the odds of surviving a pretty tough encounter.
GM Lari |
The hallow does negate the DR of the daemons when they're inside it, which is a pretty nice benefit in lieu of the traditional spells.
Unless you follow the lead of my party and all rush outside the hallowed area (which had been drawn on the map) to get into combat quickly. If I'd been power attacking (which in hindsight I probably should have), there would have been at least a few deaths.
Lawrence Smith 2 |
Thanks for the feedback, andreww and GM Lari.
Looks like there is some flexibility for the GM even within the bounds of running the scenario as written.
the holy aura functions as the hallow spell, with the additional benefit of suppressing the DR of evil outsiders.
At the lower subtier, resist energy (cold) or protection from energy (cold) could be a consideration.
Rycaut |
Ah - I interpreted it as 20' from the walls of the shrine - which made it functional for the players and gives it a pretty large radius which I think makes more sense than the radius only being inside of the shrine (which being without windows makes it hard as a location for adventurers) it was still a very tough encounter but I think overall a pretty enjoyable one for the table I ran a few weeks ago
Terminalmancer Venture-Captain, Pennsylvania—Pittsburgh |
For more clarity my understanding was that with his psychic contact through the candle he was actively desecrating the grave and the shrine so the only way for Batken's karma not to be disrupted is for the party to fail at both missions.
That might be so. Still, a more direct interpretation is that by doing something the elves see as controversial, he's directly responsible for the dissolution of the alliance he was responsible for creating a long long time ago. And it's strongly implied that wrecking the alliance helps mess with his karmic balance, while the desecration of the grave bit only seems to be used as a bump in the road to provide a challenge for the PCs.
Sebastian Hirsch Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria |
p-sto wrote:For more clarity my understanding was that with his psychic contact through the candle he was actively desecrating the grave and the shrine so the only way for Batken's karma not to be disrupted is for the party to fail at both missions.That might be so. Still, a more direct interpretation is that by doing something the elves see as controversial, he's directly responsible for the dissolution of the alliance he was responsible for creating a long long time ago. And it's strongly implied that wrecking the alliance helps mess with his karmic balance, while the desecration of the grave bit only seems to be used as a bump in the road to provide a challenge for the PCs.
I agree, the political turmoil seems to be the bigger issue, just read what Daimo says (and how the reactions even mention that society by name) if the group manages to convince all three elders.
The Damn might not actually result in negative Karma, but his intentions are damning enough.
outshyn |
Question:
An enormous, mithral-plated mirror
...and...
he falls, shattering the mirror
How does that work? I assume a mirror of mithral plating would be extremely strong, yet the module describes it breaking like glass. Even if there is glass involved, it's the mithral that is the reflective surface, so that's the part that needs to shatter if we want to stop the reflection, and yet that's the part that is the strongest.
Help me to make that right in my brain?
Also, this:
Kasashige declares the clans' alliance severed. As he leads the PCs to area B3 to open Sorin's crypt, he laments that "Bakten would weep to see his greatest deed undone."
Before this scene Kasashige was characterized as being obsessed with keeping the clans together. Yet now he personally severs the alliance in a fit of anger? That's... super out of character. To top it off, he then goes on about how disappointed Bakten would be about the alliance being severed. If I put that in front of my players, they will shout, "HE severed it, so it's his fault that Bakten would be upset!" Or, "If this idiot doesn't want Bakten upset, he can just not sever the alliance like he did."
Or even worse, "This guy is a total liar, claiming that he cares about Bakten's legacy, but then unilaterally dissolving the alliance Bakten forged."
I just wonder if the author was aware of the massive mental disconnect happening there.
Sebastian Hirsch Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria |
BigNorseWolf |
Will have to check the scenario to see if this would work, but I liked the idea so much it let it happen
To get the candle to Bakten's previous life's skull they swapped out their candle for the candle one of the elves was carrying and just let them take it in. They had planned to pick it up in the morning, but the fight breaking out provided a good chance to just walk in and take it.
1bent1 Venture-Lieutenant, Alaska—Anchorage |
Sir_Wulf RPG Superstar 2008 Top 16 |
It sounds like the parties that wiped on this fight couldn't make any knowledge checks or pass their saves, and didn't come with silver weapons or a way to align them. That's a bummer when it happens, but it's not the scenario's fault. DR silver is not hard to get around, especially when the scenario gives you a mithral sword. (It might have been better if this sword appeared in Dallo--maybe even as an offering at the shrine. If PCs go to Dallo first, they won't have it when they need it.)
This is a challenging encounter for sure, but I don't think it's unfair. For a frame of reference, the party I ran for was composed of a halfling cavalier on a wolf, a halfling mounted fury barbarian on a wolf, a rogue/mesmerist, a pregen cleric, and a samsaran magus.
If the creatures had hovered over them, clawing from out of reach as they did when my team played it, I don't see how they could have survived. Our party rolled badly on skill rolls, but what made the battle impossible was the way the creatures hovered over us after they hammered us with their breath weapons, floating just out of reach. Target them with arrows? Eat multiple AoOs. Move to reach a badly wounded ally? Eat multiple AoOs. Try to go invisible? They see invisible, so eat multiple AoOs.
outshyn |
In the Court Intrigue portion of Ayajinbo do the players have to make both skills checks to convince a clan leader to vote on their behalf?
Yes. The first check unlocks the 2nd check. They don't (or shouldn't) know what buttons to press (emotionally) on the target NPC. So check #1 unlocks that info, and then the PCs "turn the screws" to apply pressure to the NPC, using the 2nd check.
If you're really role-playing it, not only do they need to pass the 1st check before trying the 2nd check, but they (the players) will need to know what passing that 1st check means and then apply what they learned to get to that 2nd check.
For example, you learn that Haraka Kasashige "feels powerless" if you make the 1st check. If the players were to say, "Well, that's useless info. Let's keep talking, but change the subject," then I wouldn't give the 2nd check, even though they got the 1st. Why? Because you're supposed to act on the info from check #1 to get check #2. If you know Haraka feels powerless, you can "shore up" his confidence, or encourage him to stand up and try. If you do this, you should get to roll to make the 2nd check.
(For my games, I actually do expect the players to not only make the 1st check, but actually understand what it means and then use it to gain the 2nd check. However, I'm suuuuuuper free-wheeling with what "understand it and use it" means. So long as they're even in the right ballpack, that 2nd check is unlocked.)
Muser |
Finally got to play this, with my SovCourt Tien Snowcaster no less. I bought the Height of Fashion vanity basically just for this scenario(I know of one more with elven well-to-do's but I've played that already) and with it my Sujar's bonus to Diplomacy checks(or rather Perform:Oratory checks) etc was high enough to just take 10 with the Elven court members. It was aces.
Buying new jewels for courtier's outfit: 100 gp
Paying my library fees to borrow a Dao Bei antholog: 19 euros(sue me)
Gathering a vast horde of Jininite fans: Priceless.
Combats went about as well as they did back in July when I ran this. The first one seems to be pretty reliant on whether they get flank on or not. Ki-fueled sneak attack full attacks + a possible x4 critical hit are game changers, but beyond those the ninjas are just...competent I guess.
Now as for the Talons of Envy: I still don't quite get the setup. We are given a time for when the attacks happen and told to ambush the outsiders, but nowhere in my mind is it apparent why would they ever go to the dam instead of the village where everyone lives? Is the dam just on their flight path? Well, anyway, attack us they did and it went very decent. Kinda get the feeling this was always written as a 6-7 scenario and the the young template was a late addition. Whereas the 3-4 fight is a probable TPK, the high tier fight is just right.
Next up: Getting an elderly 9th level sorcerer boss as a SovCourt contact.