Unsummoner rant thread


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Ok, before we derail the favorite class thread, let us put all Unsummoner hate and ranting here.

I hear venting is good for the heart :p

Personally.... i hate the class... it lost a lot, gained nothing, amd has forced RP tied to it (has Paizo not learned that Alignment restrictions are NEVER popular?). To top it off, they did nothing about the REAL power of the summoner, the Master Summoner. Master Summoner was the real power house of the base/ synth/ master trifecta. So it is still OP as hell...


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The spell changes are great, but the eidolon templates were clumsy and overly restrictive in flavor, in my opinion. Especially rank is the alignment limitations on something as simple as body type.


Here is my summoner homebrew
I disliked both the eidolon and spells but master summoner would get out of hand. This was my answer to that. After some playtesting it comes out to about T3 maybe T2.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I prefer the Unchained Summoner.
I LIKE the increased flavor. I prefer the alignment restrictions. I think the spell list adjustments are great. My only complaint is that the evolution points are still heavily favored toward combat brutes, rather than any more utility based companions.


I like a lot about the Unchained summoner but what really hurts it is the limited number of different types you can go for with the Eidolon. It's hard to go from a class with almost limitless background ideas to one where everything is shoehorned. I know a lot of the ideas I had just don't work as is, and are either impossible or require some weird reflavoring. and the alignment restrictions also make some ideas impossible. I can't have a devil who is trying to constantly corrupt the good person they are "attached" to, nor an angelic spirit who is trying to return an evil person to the righteous path...because alignment.

IMHO they should have either try to fit more diversity of options in the eidolon type, or we should have gotten a CS unchained book to accompany the hardcover, which significantly expanded the selection.


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I'm not impressed with the unsummoner.

I think the spell list changes have a way too high bathwater to baby ratio; a summoner should be, well, good at summoning things. I accept that there are misguided people who think that having haste available at 4th level is somehow a game-breaking change (or, for that matter, even a noticeable one), these people are merely misguided, but not actively stupid.

However, the idea that a specialist in summoning monsters should be notable worse at summoning monsters than a generalist wizard or sorcerer is oh-my-god what-were-they-thinking pants-on-head flaming idiotic.

Which is what they did by keeping the spell levels for all the various summoning spells (and planar binding and whatnot) the same between the lists.

The revised eidolons are notably worse than the original; they lose flexibility and they're even harder to work with than the old ones.

I understand that they wanted to nerf the summoner. I understand that they did it. Unfortunately, I wish they had also wanted to allow the summoner to be a playable character, because the design specs evidently missed that entirely.


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I love the unchained summoner :-)

The additional abilities added on to the eidolons can be really cool, like the lay on hands, or truespeech, see in darkness... some of the cooler utility abilities of outsiders.

The added story elements are really just the icing on the cake. Also let's be honest, the Eidolon class feature is still pretty strong, even without every summoner on the planet taking pouncing quadrupeds.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The lack of evolution points kills it for me, especially since none of the costs changed for the better. It's next to impossible to have an interesting huge eidolon anymore since, once you make it huge, you can't really afford to do anything else with it.


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Well the earliest you can make it huge is 13th level, which it does cost all 10 of your base points.

If you're a half-elf though, you can have 3 extra points [unless I'm missing the rule where favored class bonuses have changed]. In addition, extra evolution at 1st, 5th, and 10th, gives you 3 more points. That's 6 points to add crazy stuff [including pounce if you feel so inclined].

That's not even going into any of the sub-types that offer extra evolution points, or even better... free evolutions.

It's not hard, it's just not super easy any more to make the unholy murder machine of doom. It's just got a bit of a feat tax.

Silver Crusade

Redjack, you completely missed the point. Its extremely easy to make a murder machine of doom and any comment otherwise is sadly ignorant of that fact. Making your Eidolon Huge is generally a step away from that. Its just like how making a God Wizard isnt hard. The same fact applies here, they just limited options and creativity because they wanted to nerf it without having to nerf their babies the Cleric, Wizard and Druid.

Shadow Lodge

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Redjack_rose wrote:

I love the unchained summoner :-)

The additional abilities added on to the eidolons can be really cool, like the lay on hands, or truespeech, see in darkness... some of the cooler utility abilities of outsiders.

Those should have been evolutions that we could have taken. The outsider forms would have made really good archetypes. Instead it is bull droppings we are shoehorned with.

I get a new version of this class was needed.

But basically I hate this class with a deep and abiding hatred that knows no bounds.

Maybe in 2017 they'll come out with Unchained 2 where they fix this class again. That would be the bees knees.


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In my experience, with the exception of lower maneuverability, making an eidolon huge only makes the murder machine factor worse [With the +16 to strength adding to it's 5 attacks]. *Shrug* perhaps I have a more jaded view of the previous eidolon.

In comparison at level 13 when the eidolon can be huge, the Unchained Eidolon loses 7 evolution points that it can use as it sees fit. It gains instead several free evolutions or abilities not even on the evolution list.

Just for example, the elemental eidolon, [available to NG, LN, N, CN, and NE summoners], can be Biped, Quadruped, or Serpentine.

It has;

One Elemental Immunity [2 pts]
Immunity Paralysis/Sleep [not listed]
1 extra evolution point
Some form of movement evolution [2-4 pts]
Immunity Bleed/Poison/Stun/Flank [not listed]

It's more than a fair trade.

I understand the argument ''they restricted customization'' but they really didn't. At least not enough for the out cry I'm seeing over it. All that someone has to do is be a little more careful with their selection and they can make all sorts of things... =P and studies show constraints can actually increase creativity.

And I mean come on, an Eidolon with Lay on Hands is pretty damn awesome...

Kerney wrote:


Those should have been evolutions that we could have taken. The outsider forms would have made really good archetypes. Instead it is bull droppings we are shoehorned with.

Honestly, every pet class [and perhaps every class] has some kind choice that is limited. Animal companions don't get to do what ever they feel like. Even improved familiars have alignment restrictions.

Not to mention should all clerics be allowed to take any domain they like, regardless of their god? Or Oracles allowed to take any revelation? Things have flavor...

..Eidolons come from somewhere. They have the flavor of their plane.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

I think the change is the most jarring for people. If the unchained summoner was what was originally published, people would not have so much issue with it.

I enjoy what the unchained offers. I was pretty meh on the chained summoner. Yeah, I could do anything, but I didn't want to. Unchained made me want to immediately make two very different summoners.


KingOfAnything wrote:

I think the change is the most jarring for people. If the unchained summoner was what was originally published, people would not have so much issue with it.

I enjoy what the unchained offers. I was pretty meh on the chained summoner. Yeah, I could do anything, but I didn't want to. Unchained made me want to immediately make two very different summoners.

I definitely agree that it's jarring.

I definitely fell in love with the unchained despite my meh feelings about the original. I'm looking at making a healer using Spirit Summoner plus Agathion Eidolon [with GM permission]. In addition, just talking about it makes me want to play a Elemental Summoner with an Elemental Eidolon.

=P


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Why?

I believe it was ultimateagic that had full eidolon builds for what you wanted. Wanted a.angel? Here how. Want a Quipploth? Heres how. Ect ect.

RP restrictions are stupid and alignment restrictions are the.dumbest of all....


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Pixie, the Leng Queen wrote:

Why?

I believe it was ultimateagic that had full eidolon builds for what you wanted. Wanted a.angel? Here how. Want a Quipploth? Heres how. Ect ect.

RP restrictions are stupid and alignment restrictions are the.dumbest of all....

I'd avoid broad terms like ''Rp restrictions are stupid.'' Getting told you can't play a robot in a low fantasy setting, not stupid. Picking a god to gain powers from and them having some restrictions, not stupid.

Not being allowed to play a bloodthirsty Drider in a group of paladins... not a stupid restriction.

I definitely think single alignment restrictions are dumb [like a Paladin should be any Good alignment]. The alignment restriction here is barely noticable unless you're looking for a reason to be annoyed.


Summoner who binds angels to his will is a common trope...

Maybe you wanted to do somethingw weird like a Qipploth or some Cthulhu esque type thing (again a.very common thing).

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

Those would be really cool as additional base options. They'd have some interesting unique advancements.


First, they recently released Unchained, who says there isn't more types coming. Over all it's a good change.

Second, there is very little difference from a Demon and a Qippolth. Both are immune to poison, Qippolths have cold immunity opposed to electric, they have resistance to all. DR can be expressed DR/Good...

Third, if all else fails your GM is there to help you. It's pretty easy to see how they designed each ''outsider type''.

I'm not saying they didn't put constraints, but they're good constraints. Every class needs restraints... -Points to her earlier example of the Oracle taking whatever revelation they want cause... you know... constraints are stupid.-


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The real problem is every single huge eidolon is going to be DAMN BORING. Large ones too!

I can't stand the fact that if my 20th-level unchained summoner makes his eidolon huge, and increases a single ability score by 2 points, he only has 1 evolution point left over.

They cut the evolution points in half, but didn't adjust the evolution prices at all. Even with the free evolutions and abilities, you are going to end up with a lot of huge eidolons basically being cookie-cutter clones of one another. Options simply shouldn't be THAT limited.

Good luck making an iconic dragon steed with a breath weapon, flight, and a bunch of natural attacks. That's just right off the table if you're stuck with the unsummoner!


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And the forced flavor removes so many options. A being from your very nightmares? Nope. Non outsider like creatures lime dragons and such. Nope. Giant robots for crazy gnomes? Nope. Twisted creatures from the stars? Nope.


So this is what I made with pretty little effort. It's a basic dragon, looks like a lava dragon. It's using extra evolution x4, and half elf bonus. This is not including any magic item that would make it bigger, or give it more attacks. One level later it could also have the mount evolution if you insist. Or remove it's limb [legs] and now it's a drake...

This isn't perfect but it's literally me not trying.

Eidolon Lvl 16

[12 pts, 4 extra evolution, 4 half-elf, 1 elemental= 21]

Serpentine Base;

Bite [free]
Improved Nat Armor [free]
Reach [Bite] [Free]
Tail [free]
Tail Slap [free]

Fire Immunity [free]
Immunity Sleep/Paralysis [free]
Base Speed increased by 20 [free]
Immunity Bleed/Poison/Stun/Flank [free]
Huge [10]
Breath Weapon [4]
Flight [2]
Limbs x2 [4]
Claws [1]

Total Evolution 21
Natural Attacks 4


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Kobold Cleaver wrote:
The spell changes are great, but the eidolon templates were clumsy and overly restrictive in flavor, in my opinion. Especially rank is the alignment limitations on something as simple as body type.

Couldn't have said it better!

Paizo went really freaking overboard with the nerfs to the class. They really should stop trying to nerf stuff, because they simply can't do it right. They always end up Crane Wing-nuking stuff into the ground.

All they really had to do was revise the spell list and maybe refine a few evolution costs (e.g.: Pounce should definitely cost more than 1 point).


Pixie, the Leng Queen wrote:
And the forced flavor removes so many options. A being from your very nightmares? Nope. Non outsider like creatures lime dragons and such. Nope. Giant robots for crazy gnomes? Nope. Twisted creatures from the stars? Nope.

Um... why can't a gnome take an inevitable, or an archon... all of which work well with the robot/clockwork vibe...

Even before unchained, you all you made were outsiders. Even if you made it look like a lime dragon or a robot, rolling a knowledge planes tells you it's an outsider. There's no reason that just because they have ''sub-types'' you can't still make any of those things and call it whatever you want... as long as it has a subtype.

I myself have an agathion that looks like my changelings twin. I even have disguise trained, so she can fool knowledge checks.

Stop focusing on ''OMG Someone dared limit me!'' and you will find you're not as limited as you think you are.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Redjack_rose wrote:

So this is what I made with pretty little effort. It's a basic dragon, looks like a lava dragon. It's using extra evolution x4, and half elf bonus. This is not including any magic item that would make it bigger, or give it more attacks. One level later it could also have the mount evolution if you insist. Or remove it's limb [legs] and now it's a drake...

This isn't perfect but it's literally me not trying.

Eidolon Lvl 16

[12 pts, 4 extra evolution, 4 half-elf, 1 elemental= 21]

Serpentine Base;

Bite [free]
Improved Nat Armor [free]
Reach [Bite] [Free]
Tail [free]
Tail Slap [free]

Fire Immunity [free]
Immunity Sleep/Paralysis [free]
Base Speed increased by 20 [free]
Immunity Bleed/Poison/Stun/Flank [free]
Huge [10]
Breath Weapon [4]
Flight [2]
Limbs x2 [4]
Claws [1]

Total Evolution 21
Natural Attacks 4

So in order to get the flavor they want, every summoner now has to be a half elf who spends half their feats on Extra Evolution?


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I've seen more than a few people suggest just using the unSummoner with the regular eidolon. The only thing I'd keep from the unEidolon is pounce.

Sovereign Court

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Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

If you want a full-on dragon you should probably have to invest in it.


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Unchained was made with the expectation that tables would be cherry picking and houseruling various parts of it, and both the book and the developers encourage this. So if flavor limitation of the eidolon annoys your table, then the table can fix it themselves.

That said, I welcome the flavor limitation because it defines a baseline for the eidolon. The chained eidolons that I've seen at my table had no rp flavor, so they were just a conglomeration marshmallow of evolution points.

For players with the creativity and drive to fully flesh out their eidolon, they can just use chained eidolon.
For players without... unchained helps a lot.

Edit: Whooops, I re-read the thread title and realized this was a rant thread. Please ignore my comment.


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

An interesting "sub-type" that they could have come up with for the "Unchained" Summoner would have been a "generalist" sub-type that gets the ability to ignore sub-type requirements as well as an extra evolution point at every level where a standard eidolon with a sub-type would have gotten a special ability. Interestingly enough, this imagined sub-type would still get fewer evolution points than the APG eidolon does.

I think they made it unnecessarily difficult to extricate the needed nerfs from the full sub-type system.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

Another problem with the "Eidolon Subtypes" is that they are not balanced against each other as well as they should be.

A good example is that the Azata starts with the 4-point Martial Weapons evolution right at start -- somewhat better then anyone else gets.


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Let me post something more in line with the spirit of the thread:
I utterly hate the unchained summoner. It's pure unburnable garbage because I have to write two additional letters on my character sheet class name.


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Alignment restrictions are really f@&+ing dumb...

Say you used to be NG. You fought many a battle along side your faithful angelic friend. You fought together, bled together, you saved the world together. But say, as the years go on, you get harder, more jaded. The cold world seems colder. Your alignment shifts just barely into N.

That friend who was there for you all those years? Yeah... nope. But here is a shiny new elemental! Dont speak amy of the elemental languages? TOO BAD! Ypu get elemental. No angel friend for you. No, angel friend sticks around tp help restore and heal you. Nope, angel is good as dead to you now.

That is stupid.....


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

Alignments have always been stupid. People still play with them?


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Orfamay Quest wrote:

I'm not impressed with the unsummoner.

I think the spell list changes have a way too high bathwater to baby ratio; a summoner should be, well, good at summoning things. I accept that there are misguided people who think that having haste available at 4th level is somehow a game-breaking change (or, for that matter, even a noticeable one), these people are merely misguided, but not actively stupid.

However, the idea that a specialist in summoning monsters should be notable worse at summoning monsters than a generalist wizard or sorcerer is oh-my-god what-were-they-thinking pants-on-head flaming idiotic.

Summoners are good are summoning. The best at summoning. They get to Summon Monster as a standard action that lasts for ten times as long as any other class. Summoners are so much better at summoning it's...exactly as it should be.

You seem to see the spells as the most important aspect, but no summoner with any sense even bothers to learn the Summon Monster spell—it's just a waste of a known slot when you'll almost never use up your minutes/level spell-like ability. Why would I ever learn an inferior version of my class ability when I could get something cool like evolution surge?

Planar Binding I can see. They should have access to the summoning spells. But the summoner shouldn't have any sort of edge with spells like dominate monster and haste that have only tangential connection. That just makes no sense.

Silver Crusade

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Pixie, the Leng Queen wrote:
Summoner who binds angels to his will is a common trope...

I don't know, that'd be overpowered unless you had a partner with EXCELLENT BMX skills.

I agree that the Unsummoner is a step down, the forced templates are very limiting, and really removes a lot of what I liked from the class. With the forced evos not being up to par with what you could take as well as the 'huge' issue, it's just not a great replacement. Spell list was fine to me, but QSS, it probably needed to be changed.

Sovereign Court

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While some of the complaints are valid (though I mostly like it) - complaints of Unchained summoner being weaker are silly. That's like complaining that the Unchained rogue is broken in comparison to the core rogue.

In both cases -

WORKING AS INTENDED


Charon's Little Helper wrote:

While some of the complaints are valid (though I mostly like it) - complaints of Unchained summoner being weaker are silly. That's like complaining that the Unchained rogue is broken in comparison to the core rogue.

In both cases -

WORKING AS INTENDED

Just because it does what's designed to do doesn't mean it's good design.

Limiting the class power is okay, but doing so by making the class' main feature extremely restrictive is not good design. It limits player creativity and character variety.


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I would have to agree with Charon's Small Intern. Eidolons aren't useless because they got nerfed. I think the nerf hurt the flavor too much to be worth it, but stats-wise, you can totally still build OP eidolons.

My objection to the Unchained Summoner is not, "Now I can't kill monsters as good." It's, "okay, so I guess I can't have a Hellcat, Hellhound, or otherwise non-bipedal Lawful Evil eidolon? Or a zelekhut? Or anything inspired by the slaadi?"

Honestly, if they'd just refrained from limiting body types, I'd probably be able to swallow this. The word "devil" is just a name, after all, and one I can easily ignore. The mandatory abilities are lame, but at least they don't control what else I pick. But I can't ignore this. It's just excessive.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

I prefer the APG summoner.

I was really hoping unchained would have done something different, like make eidolons scalable with player character creation. In other words, if everyone is made with a 15 point buy, the eidolon would be weaker in proportion to the PCs. If PCs are generated by random die rolls, make the starting eidolons stats somewhat random as well. If the PCs were made by a 30 point stat array, the eidolon should be more powerful as well to scale with how the PCs are made. I would also have enjoyed to see evolutions for other situations than combat (for socially skilled, or skillmonkey eidolon builds. Our home groups have plenty of combat machines already, we need more skillmonkeys and party faces).

Instead, summoner has ben weakened to the point where I would just play a druid or conjuration wizard instead for PFS play. Certainly, they are weaker at the first few levels. Past 6th level, the shenanigans those classes have far outweigh the "problems" of the APG summoner.

Granted, I understand that it was the irresponsible players that made flying spaghetti monsters or monkeys with four butts were the problem, the "fixes" didn't change that. It just spoiled it to such a degree that the iconic summoner is no longer a legal choice for PFS play, along with a lot of other concepts that would not have otherwise rocked the boat.


Ravingdork wrote:
So in order to get the flavor they want, every summoner now has to be a half elf who spends half their feats on Extra Evolution?

And can't actually get that flavor until level 16-17. AKA when most APs are ending or already over, well after PFS is done, and a point where I've only seen a couple home games get to.


Ravingdork wrote:


So in order to get the flavor they want, every summoner now has to be a half elf who spends half their feats on Extra Evolution?

I think someone is just being stubborn now. You said ''Good luck making a dragon,'' I made a dragon. I made a dragon the quickest way I could think of without going into magic items or feats, or doing anything in depth. You wanna admit I made a dragon?

Is everyone going to have to take 4 feats or half-elf? No.


No, but they are if they want to make a complex eidolon. Dragons or no dragons, that is what most people are after.


Kobold Cleaver wrote:
No, but they are if they want to make a complex eidolon. Dragons or no dragons, that is what most people are after.

...

That was a 10 minute attempt at showing it could be done. That's less than 1/10th what I do for most character crafting for my actual character. I proved my point that with some investment, a complex eidolon can be done... just like any complex character.

That example is lacking magic items, additional feats, spells [evolution surge could grant the breath weapon if needed on a regular basis, as an example], and anything else someone serious about making investing in their Eidolons will come up with.

Dark Archive

I strongly prefer the unchained summoner I just found the Origonal version far to random. Also as long as your not playing PFS you can just use the origonal version anyway (Where in PFS from what I have seen it was causing a lot of problems.)


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Redjack_rose wrote:
Kobold Cleaver wrote:
No, but they are if they want to make a complex eidolon. Dragons or no dragons, that is what most people are after.

...

That was a 10 minute attempt at showing it could be done.

And your attempt required a half-elf spending half his feats. Evolution points just aren't that easy to come by. If you need to come up with specific builds just to handle that simple limitation, you haven't overcome the limitation at all.

In other words, if specialization is needed to gain flexibility, there's not really any flexibility.


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Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Redjack_rose wrote:
Kobold Cleaver wrote:
No, but they are if they want to make a complex eidolon. Dragons or no dragons, that is what most people are after.

...

That was a 10 minute attempt at showing it could be done.

And your attempt required a half-elf spending half his feats. Evolution points just aren't that easy to come by. If you need to come up with specific builds just to handle that simple limitation, you haven't overcome the limitation at all.

In other words, if specialization is needed to gain flexibility, there's not really any flexibility.

Redjack_rose's build wasn't solving some overarching flexibility problem. It was a response to a specific challenge:

"Good luck making an iconic dragon steed with a breath weapon, flight, and a bunch of natural attacks. That's just right off the table if you're stuck with the unsummoner!"

Turns out it's not off the table. Saying "but it's much harder than it should be" is a pretty clear case of moving the goalposts, don't you think?


Kobold Cleaver wrote:

And your attempt required a half-elf spending half his feats. Evolution points just aren't that easy to come by. If you need to come up with specific builds just to handle that simple limitation, you haven't overcome the limitation at all.

In other words, if specialization is needed to gain flexibility, there's not really any flexibility.

...

Like I said, this was my 10 minute attempt. Is the elemental the best choice? Maybe not. I picked Elemental cause it has the largest alignment spread. Maybe if I'd picked Azata or agathion, the point totals might have come out differently... I don't know, all I set out to do is show it could be done.

There's a ring out there that gives an eidolon a bite attack, that saves an evolution. There's evolution surge [for breath attack maybe] that shaves off 4 points. You could lose being a half-elf then... there's several ways that it could be ''done better.''

That wasn't my job or the job of the example...


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Steve Geddes wrote:
Turns out it's not off the table. Saying "but it's much harder than it should be" is a pretty clear case of moving the goalposts, don't you think?

Only if you're being willfully obtuse and adhering to the specific words, rather than the very obvious meaning behind them.


Lemmy wrote:
Steve Geddes wrote:
Turns out it's not off the table. Saying "but it's much harder than it should be" is a pretty clear case of moving the goalposts, don't you think?
Only if you're being willfully obtuse and adhering to the specific words, rather than the very obvious meaning behind them.

First, Thank you Steve.

Secondly, he's right, it is moving the goal post. I was given a goal and I made it. It's not adhering to specific words, someone said make me a dragon and I did, in like 10 minutes. Did I pick subpar or ''easy'' ways to get there? ...like hell I did! Could someone who was serious about making this Eidolon happen find a better way? Definitely.

Even using 1 spell to gain a breath weapon shaves off 4 points [either negating the half-elf requirement of the build or the 4 feats] without effecting the general appearance of the Eidolon [still looks like a dragon!]

So... is anyone going to admit they were wrong?


Redjack_rose wrote:
So... is anyone going to admit they were wrong?

Glorious

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