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I know it's been a whole 24 hours since I put up a wizard related thread so I figured I'd ask a question that I'm not 100% sure about. If I were to make a simulacrum of, say, a planetar, would he retain spells like heal and just be considered CL 8 instead of 16? I was extremely interested in the idea of a planetar simulacrum, as I could use Blood Money to pay for the rubies, and then command the planetar to heal the ability damage and health damage. Just a quick question that applies to most of the useful simulacrum, thanks!
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I know it's been a whole 24 hours since I put up a wizard related thread so I figured I'd ask a question that I'm not 100% sure about. If I were to make a simulacrum of, say, a planetar, would he retain spells like heal and just be considered CL 8 instead of 16? I was extremely interested in the idea of a planetar simulacrum, as I could use Blood Money to pay for the rubies, and then command the planetar to heal the ability damage and health damage. Just a quick question that applies to most of the useful simulacrum, thanks!
The creatures caster level for spell like abilities would remain the same.
Yes, you can use Blood Money to pay for the rubies.
Yes, the Planetar can use Heal to remove you ability damage.
A simulacrum is supposed to have abilities appropriate for something of half its HD. Look at the highest level spell it can cast, divide by two, and it probably shouldn't have anything over that. Simulacrum is entirely GM discretion, though. (There will be a blog post about the spell eventually, since it is very problematic.)
You may not be able to use Blood Money for the rubies, since the casting time is way longer than the one round you have to use up the Blood Money rubies. GM discretion again.
The Planetar probably doesn't have the spell, and you probably couldn't cast it. In any case, if you get permission to do one or both, you probably shouldn't abuse it for free permanent minions.
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A simulacrum is supposed to have abilities appropriate for something of half its HD. Look at the highest level spell it can cast, divide by two, and it probably shouldn't have anything over that. Simulacrum is entirely GM discretion, though. (There will be a blog post about the spell eventually, since it is very problematic.)
You may not be able to use Blood Money for the rubies, since the casting time is way longer than the one round you have to use up the Blood Money rubies. GM discretion again.
The Planetar probably doesn't have the spell, and you probably couldn't cast it. In any case, if you get permission to do one or both, you probably shouldn't abuse it for free permanent minions.
*sigh* You are mistaken about how Simulacrum works RAW.
1. Efreeti have Wish, at CL 11. That's not normally possible. It's a trait that is inherent to being an Efreeti. It's not an ability based on HD, therefore halving the HD does nothing. It is provably not connected to HD, since even advanced Efreeti still have Wish 3/day at CL 11.
2. You can use Blood Money for the Rubies. The components created by Blood Money only turn back into blood at the end of the turn *if* and only *if* you do not use them as a material component. Since you have cast (even if you won't finish it for awhile) Simulacrum, the created components are being used as a material component.
3. The Planetar does have the spell, because their Cleric Casting is not based on HD.
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I know it's been a whole 24 hours since I put up a wizard related thread so I figured I'd ask a question that I'm not 100% sure about. If I were to make a simulacrum of, say, a planetar, would he retain spells like heal and just be considered CL 8 instead of 16? I was extremely interested in the idea of a planetar simulacrum, as I could use Blood Money to pay for the rubies, and then command the planetar to heal the ability damage and health damage. Just a quick question that applies to most of the useful simulacrum, thanks!
Sure, sounds legit and I suppose I would allow it at a GM... as long as you didn't mind if the original planetar you used as a template showed up to have a little chat with you about what is and is not acceptable for you to do with it's image. That's the problems with these silly RAW arbitrage games... the GM will ALWAYS have more arbitrages then you.
*sigh* You are mistaken about how Simulacrum works RAW.1. Efreeti have Wish, at CL 11. That's not normally possible. It's a trait that is inherent to being an Efreeti. It's not an ability based on HD, therefore halving the HD does nothing. It is provably not connected to HD, since even advanced Efreeti still have Wish 3/day at CL 11.
2. You can use Blood Money for the Rubies. The components created by Blood Money only turn back into blood at the end of the turn *if* and only *if* you do not use them as a material component. Since you have cast (even if you won't finish it for awhile) Simulacrum, the created components are being used as a material component.
3. The Planetar does have the spell, because their Cleric Casting is not based on HD.
Simulacrum creates an illusory duplicate of any creature. The duplicate creature is partially real and formed from ice or snow. It appears to be the same as the original, but it has only half of the real creature's levels or HD (and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD)
1. It's GM discretion what constitutes appropriate special abilities for a half level/HD creature. I'm not arguing that a reduced CL prevents an Efreeti from having Wish, I'm arguing that Wish is an inappropriate special ability for a 5HD creature.
2. Does casting Simulacrum use rubies in the first round? If so, this works. If not, they have not been used and vanish. I don't know of any rule specifying this, so it's GM discretion. In my case, I've usually gotten permission with some "don't abuse it" restrictions placed on it.
3. 8th level casting is appropriate for a 17 HD creature; it is not appropriate for an 8 HD creature. RAW does not require that it be directly tied to HD or level to change, only that the resulting special abilities be appropriate for the new HD or level.
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1. It's GM discretion what constitutes appropriate special abilities for a half level/HD creature. I'm not arguing that a reduced CL prevents an Efreeti from having Wish, I'm arguing that Wish is an inappropriate special ability for a 5HD creature.
[citation needed]
More seriously (as that was a bit of a joke), of course it's GM discretion - but the GM discretion that follows that track is the same kind that says "fighters are too weak, here, have extra skill points"... that is to say, it's GM discretion that expressly goes beyond and against RAW.
Please not that I am not against this - in fact it is vitally important for most games to run smoothly go "beyond and against RAW" for the sake of their local table.
3. 8th level casting is appropriate for a 17 HD creature; it is not appropriate for an 8 HD creature. RAW does not require that it be directly tied to HD or level to change, only that the resulting special abilities be appropriate for the new HD or level.
This is the point at which you're not even using the rules anymore. You're just going, "eh, I'm GM" which... isn't really useful in the way you've presented it.
For more clarity: it's useful, just not in that particular way you're using it.
Sure, sounds legit and I suppose I would allow it at a GM... as long as you didn't mind if the original planetar you used as a template showed up to have a little chat with you about what is and is not acceptable for you to do with it's image. That's the problems with these silly RAW arbitrage games... the GM will ALWAYS have more arbitrages then you.
This right here is the most solid RAW reason to avoid such shenanigans.
[citation needed]More seriously (as that was a bit of a joke), of course it's GM discretion - but the GM discretion that follows that track is the same kind that says "fighters are too weak, here, have extra skill points"... that is to say, it's GM discretion that expressly goes beyond and against RAW.
Please not that I am not against this - in fact it is vitally important for most games to run smoothly go "beyond and against RAW" for the sake of their local table.
I don't see it as against RAW, and certainly not in the same way as your example- the text says abilities appropriate for its HD. We're told how many skill points a fighter gets, but we're not told what's "appropriate" for a 5HD creature, or whatever. It's GM discretion like deciding what does and doesn't constitute interacting with an illusion is GM discretion.
If somebody wants to interpret that line as only scaling things that have exact scaling tied to HD, that's their interpretation, but RAW doesn't say you should do that, just like RAW doesn't say interaction is limited to touching an illusion.
But my argument is pedantic at best. Much more to the point, there are not-unreasonable ways to interpret the spell that wouldn't allow the combination of spells to provide an army of Planetars at no cost beyond some free time. Simulacrum is a spell that will probably require a certain amount of player/GM cooperation anyways.
[This is the point at which you're not even using the rules anymore. You're just going, "eh, I'm GM" which... isn't really useful in the way you've presented it.
For more clarity: it's useful, just not in that particular way you're using it.
Yes, sorry. If I were running it, I would treat anything that is very close to being tied to level or HD as being tied to HD for dealing with the word "appropriate". Unique abilities would still be a bit of a hassle, but "casts as a Cleric of level X" is very easy to work out.
So how would you run a rakshasa, then?
10 HD, CL 7 sorcerer, CL 18 detect thoughts ability.
Similarly, the 4 HD doppleganger with it's CL 18 detect thoughts.
A drider has 9 HD, 9-CL SLAs, and 6-CL for sorcerer level.
A hag coven with their CL 9 6th, 7th (and 7th and 7th), and 8th level spells? Or the fact that it's explicitly noted that these SLAs are run by an "effective" charisma of 16 - too low for at least four of their abilities?
A solar as 22 HD, 20 CL SLAs and cleric abilities (but none of the other cleric features), and their explicit ability says,
Solars can cast divine spells as 20th-level clerics. They do not gain access to domains or other cleric abilities.
... and nothing about their level relative to their HD.
Similarly, kostchtchie's SLAs are CL 26 - the same as his CR (though this doesn't keep up, if you compare the solars, earlier) - but also grant some mythic versions... and he has no mythic tiers or abilities. Or a nymph's CL 8 SLA and 8 HD v. it's CL 7 spells and CR. Of course, proteans have a freedom of movement without a CL, a Change Shape/heal combo effect with the latter half tied directly to HD, but keketars, imenteshes, and naunets all have CRs equal to their SLA CLs, but very different from their HDs (which differ in differing amounts from their CLs). Voidworms have one CR, a different CL, and yet a different HD, all only tangentially related to each other.
Or Hand of the Inheritor, a ton of paladin abilities equal to his 18 HD while leaving it unclear if they're related or not: some specify it's just 18, while others specify it's tied... and that means that, RAW, there are some that are tied, and some that are simply incidentally similar.
Contrast a gathlain's (and gnome's, and others') SLAs, a half-celestial's SLAs, and the gravity elemental's special gravity field ability.
Even dragons - which notably do tie their hit dice, spellcasting, and caster level - do so inconsistently and without a direct line.
With dragons, at least, you can just use the chart (which establishes a pattern).
With everything else, you're literally making up rules because some creatures kind of sort of look like they might work a certain way, when others explicitly don't.
To compare the base creature discussed, a planetar, let's compare other angels.
Big P is a CR and CL 16, 17 HD angel. Half that (coming in at either 9 HD or - more likely, due to rounding rules - 8 HD) is the choral angel, a CR 6 with a CL... 8. That is their CL is equal to their HD instead of less than their HD, and doesn't equal their CR.
That's the problem: there's nothing that you can point to in order to make that ruling except from your own sense of how you think it should go, disregarding the actual rules.
I don't see it as against RAW, and certainly not in the same way as your example- the text says abilities appropriate for its HD. We're told how many skill points a fighter gets, but we're not told what's "appropriate" for a 5HD creature, or whatever. It's GM discretion like deciding what does and doesn't constitute interacting with an illusion is GM discretion.
The examples are the same because we're shown what is definitively given by a fighter being a fighter... but the GM can easily note that it merely says that a fighter does get the skills listed, but because of the power-thing, it's "appropriate" that they get more (as, after all, there is no rule that clarifies they can't).
What is "interact"? Not just casually looking at it, that's for sure... unless the GM decides that they "normally" don't get a save because most people in the omniverse don't "interact" with it (as, you know, they aren't there), and thus everyone who perceives it is "interacting". Technically it follows RAW, but ignores the weight of thereof.
There are a hardline list of things that are noted, RAW, as being directly tied - and thus "appropriate" - to HD. To tie anything else is GM fiat that is not supported by RAW (though is reasonable withing a given game).
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That's fair. I'm likely reading too much into "appropriate". I agree that CL is completely divorced from HD when it comes to monster SLAs and spells, and was arguing on the basis of actual spell level. (After all, RAW says that special abilities must be appropriate for the HD- if they are not appropriate, then it's not RAW.) But like you pointed out, hag covens provide a very high HD-to-spell level ratio example.
Also, I get what you mean by the Fighter argument now- a Fighter being Simulacrum'd. Gotcha.