| 15 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
In another thread currently ongoing there is rather heated debate about how to run illusion spells.
I was hoping we could get a blog post to elucidate this subject on how to appropriately run illusions spells, though I know it's a bit difficult for the development team to cede to such request. If it does happen though, I would like to say thank you in advance.
Please, lets not debate the answer to questions in this thread. I would like people to either post resources that have good explanations or would like people to join me in requesting some clarification on the subject.
As a few examples of questions I have:
A character uses spellcraft to identify a spell as it's being cast and determines that it's an illusion. What happens?
The illusion spring into place. It's a wall that surround the character. Can the character think, "That wall might not be real, I'm going to try walking through it." What happens? Can the character even have that thought?
The character has failed the save against the illusionary wall. They decide to try breaking the wall with their weapon or climbing it. What happens?
Feel free to add more examples of things you think are might unclear.
Again, please lets not argue about what the correct answers are here. We already have a thread doing that.
I would think, and this is house rule territory, that the very nature of Illusion is rife with misdirection and this would extend to the gestures made to cast. Have the character make the Will save vs both the spell effect and Spellcraft ID (just one save but apply to both effects). If you fail the save, in this case, against an illusionary wall, he IDs it as a Conjuration spell... makes sense to me.
Illusion (Figment) and (Glamer) spells are not mind affecting, so they don't mess with a person's thoughts or force em to believe anything in particular.
There are no hard and fast rules on the spellcrafting. Some DMs allow that to auto pass the will save. I find that to directly break the rules.
Although if a player spellcrafted it I would give them a +4 to save as though they understood it to be an illusion. If he fails the save, io would say, maybe you identified the spell wrong.
Ok the PC tries to smash the wall, roll a d20 for me first(i will know their will save), if they fail. I tell them to roll damage. Then say your attacks does not even scratch the wall. Letting them get frustrated.
An illusion alters someone perceptions they perceive a wall. Perception = reality. If you perceive that wall your characters reality is there is a wall. If they had reasons to think the wall was fake i would give them bonuses to the save. If they metagamed it was an illusion i would stop them, because that is cheating. Lets say there is an illusion bridge instead.
If a party fails the save. The first player says they cross the bridge. I would give them a will save, they fail they fall. If they make it a chance to not fall. The second guy sees his friend fall right through. They get a free will save to disbelieve(it could be a trap or something). If they test it and drop a stone the stone would fall through and each attempt gives a save.
The illusion creates a figment your brain perceives as real. As a DM you need to describe how the PCs perceive this. Then letting the player play their characters as they sense things that contradict their beliefs. Since the PCs live in worlds of magic things do not always work and they should understand that.
Illusion (Figment) and (Glamer) spells are not mind affecting, so they don't mess with a person's thoughts or force em to believe anything in particular.
They are not mind effecting, but they alter someones perceptions. I never tell a PC they know a wall is there. But their senses tell them it is a wall. The PCs that fail checks without any evidence trust their senses to be true. Reacting as if the illusion was not there is metagaming.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Here is how an illusion spell works (as I understand.)
If you see an illusion, and the illusion is something possible, you do not get a save, you see what the illusion is.
If you see an illusion, and do one of a few things, you can make a save against it. Basically, anything that could reveal it as an illusion, so . . . examine it closely, try to interact with it, or the illusion is ridiculous or fantastic (like a crudely-painted drawing come to life.)
If you have good evidence that is an illusion, such as you see your friend pass through it, or put his foot through it, or the party wizard TELLS you it is an illusion, or you identify it as an illusion spell being cast, you get a save at a +4 bonus.
If you are forced to interact with it, you succeed automatically. Such as an illusionary pit you trip and fall into, or an illusionary wall that an enemy grapples you and pulls you though.
In your example of trying to bust down a wall, I've seen two interpretations. One is you disbelieve automatically. The other is that your brain thinks there's a wall there, and you instinctively stop your punch at the wall. The latter gives you a new save. Picking up and throwing something through the wall gives you a new save at a +4 bonus.
Here is how an illusion spell works (as I understand.)
If you see an illusion, and the illusion is something possible, you do not get a save, you see what the illusion is.
If you see an illusion, and do one of a few things, you can make a save against it. Basically, anything that could reveal it as an illusion, so . . . examine it closely, try to interact with it, or the illusion is ridiculous or fantastic (like a crudely-painted drawing come to life.)
If you have good evidence that is an illusion, such as you see your friend pass through it, or put his foot through it, or the party wizard TELLS you it is an illusion, or you identify it as an illusion spell being cast, you get a save at a +4 bonus.
If you are forced to interact with it, you succeed automatically. Such as an illusionary pit you trip and fall into, or an illusionary wall that an enemy grapples you and pulls you though.
In your example of trying to bust down a wall, I've seen two interpretations. One is you disbelieve automatically. The other is that your brain thinks there's a wall there, and you instinctively stop your punch at the wall. The latter gives you a new save. Picking up and throwing something through the wall gives you a new save at a +4 bonus.
I agree with most of this. The only thing I would argue is the forced interaction bit. If you have proof it is fake you automatically see through it. But being forced to interact may not break it. For example someone with disguise self up kisses you would not prove it fake. You would need more proof.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
In your example of trying to bust down a wall, I've seen two interpretations. One is you disbelieve automatically. The other is that your brain thinks there's a wall there, and you instinctively stop your punch at the wall. The latter gives you a new save. Picking up and throwing something through the wall gives you a new save at a +4 bonus.
I've had a broken hand that says this is in no way what-so-ever a thing that will happen.
|
|
I agree with most of this. The only thing I would argue is the forced interaction bit. If you have proof it is fake you automatically see through it. But being forced to interact may not break it. For example someone with disguise self up kisses you would not prove it fake. You would need more proof.
The sticky bit is 'what constitutes as proof.' In a world where there are a myriad number of magical effects, some things may not be illusions. If you pick up a stone and throw it through a wall, that wall COULD be an illusion, or it could be an enchanted wall that doesn't let creatures pass though it. People without ranks in spellcraft or knowledge(arcana) might not know.
Basically, I treat proof as incontrovertible proof. You slip and fall down a 'pit' only to realize that you aren't falling. You get thown through a wall that wasn't there by your friend, etc. Once you have physically disproven it, then it is no longer there.
(And yes, I realize the fallacy there, that a wall that you walk though could be a wall that lets you walk through it, but I'm working within the rules here.)
In your example of trying to bust down a wall, I've seen two interpretations. One is you disbelieve automatically. The other is that your brain thinks there's a wall there, and you instinctively stop your punch at the wall. The latter gives you a new save. Picking up and throwing something through the wall gives you a new save at a +4 bonus.I've had a broken hand that says this is in no way what-so-ever a thing that will happen.
Sure, yes. Unless you had an adamantine gauntlet, or were a class (like martial artist or steel-breaker brawler) that WOULDN'T break their hands like that.
Sorry, should have been more specific. When you attack the wall, your brain instinctively stops the swing at the wall and you think it is still there (if you fail your new save.)
Attacking a wall would reasonably either give a save, or prove it isn't real.
Being pushed through a wall, or traveling through it for whatever reason (perhaps trying to climb it, or just break it down with strength checks) should prove that it's not real. At that point, they know it does nothing, so it's all but useless anyway.
| 7 people marked this as a favorite. |
For context, here's the other thread: Concerning Major Image Spell (warning: annoying argument inside, if it hasn't died yet. Hopefully it has.)
Here's the WotC articles on how to run illusions. The text hasn't changed from older editions, and these give a lot of great insight on how to run illusions. Should clear a lot of stuff up.
Give 'em a read!
Paulicious is right, the 2006 WOTC articles "All about illusions", a 4-part series by Skip Williams are *golden*. Sure, they are about D&D and nearly 10 years old, but AFAIK nothing in the way illusions are treated in PF has changed from DD3.x.
Simply understanding the differences between the various schools of illusion spells (figments, glammers, shadows, etc) clears up a lot of misunderstandings and subsequent misrulings.
This said, many DMs have odd ideas about illusions based on past personal gaming experiences, so illusion spells can vary widely from totally useless to totally awesome.
Best advice is to straight out ask your DM what he thinks.
@Claxon
We have talked a bit in other thread before and I have to say that I have scanned all illusion topics long time ago. There was little conclusion in the end. It remains a bit grey and GM dependent area as always. I am not sure that you will find definite answer for it.
I doubt I can find definite answers, which is exactly why I'm asking for the development team to take some time and write a blog post in regards to the topic of Illusion spells so that we can answer the questions.
I think we had better FAQ my original post here, that way it gets developer attention. I think that is the official method.
So, please FAQ my original post those of you interested in clarification.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The answer to how illusions work has always been "table variation". I've always hated that, so I threw in my vote for the FAQ. Skip's article series does not go nearly far enough (but are almost all we have to go on)
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Frankly - before making an illusion based character - one should have a discussion with their GM about how it will work. Many haven't even thought it out - and it's good to have such questions answered before you're in the thick of a combat.
Though I do agree - these questions should be answered for the sake of PFS if nothing else.
Illusions are tricky indeed, both in game and out!
I have been in heated discussions with my tabletop buddies about what illusions can or cannot do. The one example that stands out in my mind was when I put forth that glamours such as Minor Image do indeed block light, to which my GM vehemently disagreed.
Disclaimer! - I know applying real-world physics can be an exercise in futility, but I think it is applicable in this circumstance.
My evidence:
Anything that our human eyes see is a recreated image on the back of our eyes, manifested as a reflection of light. The absence of light means we cannot see. Every color in our visible spectrum is a variation of a reflected light.
In-game stuff: If Hero A and Hero B have a brick wall standing between them, that wall is blocking the reflected light that allows the other person to be seen. In simplest terms, the brick wall blocks line of sight, where sight = perceived light reflections.
If that same Hero A and Hero B have an illusory brick wall between them, it does the exact same thing - it blocks line of sight, where sight = perceived light reflections.
Based on this logic, could not someone block off torchlight in an alcove with a illusory stone wall or tarpaulin? If so, could a vampire walk safely under a illusory awning/canopy that blocked the noon-day sun?
---
If someone argues that my logic is faulty, I'm willing to hear them out, but I would counter than anything but the notion that illusions can block light would make for a very poor illusion.
If I placed a illusion of an enclosed box around an enemy, yet this box did not block light, the inside of the box would be fully lit - possibly with full daylight if the example was conducted outside. In this example the person inside the illusory box could easily figure out something is fishy even without spellcraft rolls or interaction. That sounds very counterintuitive to me, and counter to the whole notion of illusion magic.
I would personally rule that glamours do indeed block light until they are disbelieved or interacted with/saved against.
You mean figments, not glamers.
The light issue is odd. I would probably go with partially blocking light, using the will save mechanic to see if they actually notice anything awry. A vampire walking under an illusory umbrella doesn't seem right to me, though I'd have to do more thinking to really call it one way or the other. Maybe illusions don't block UV light?
*figment, not glamer.
Yes, you are correct Paulicus. Thank you.
For context, here's the other thread: Concerning Major Image Spell (warning: annoying argument inside, if it hasn't died yet. Hopefully it has.)
Here's the WotC articles on how to run illusions. The text hasn't changed from older editions, and these give a lot of great insight on how to run illusions. Should clear a lot of stuff up.
Give 'em a read!
Damn. Beat me to it. Thanks for posting them!
Damn. Beat me to it. Thanks for posting them!For context, here's the other thread: Concerning Major Image Spell (warning: annoying argument inside, if it hasn't died yet. Hopefully it has.)
Here's the WotC articles on how to run illusions. The text hasn't changed from older editions, and these give a lot of great insight on how to run illusions. Should clear a lot of stuff up.
Give 'em a read!
You beat me to it in the other thread. Now we're tied! :P
I'm actually going through and re-reading these, they're that useful.
The mind has an amazing ability to dupe itself into believing something that is not true.
Take this real world example: Anton-Babinski syndrome.
This is a condition where a person is blind but will absolutely deny that fact even in the face of clear evidence to the contrary.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anton%E2%80%93Babinski_syndrome
In the case of the illusionary wall mentioned in the opening post, if a character fails their saving throw to detect an illusionary wall then attempting to climb it won't help, they will just imagine they climbed to the top and then back down again.
"Yep, that wall is definitely real. I just climbed right to the top. That was a tough climb, lucky I didn't slip!".
The mind has an amazing ability to dupe itself into believing something that is not true.
Take this real world example: Anton-Babinski syndrome.
This is a condition where a person is blind but will absolutely deny that fact even in the face of clear evidence to the contrary.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anton%E2%80%93Babinski_syndrome
In the case of the illusionary wall mentioned in the opening post, if a character fails their saving throw to detect an illusionary wall then attempting to climb it won't help, they will just imagine they climbed to the top and then back down again.
"Yep, that wall is definitely real. I just climbed right to the top. That was a tough climb, lucky I didn't slip!".
A figment probably is more like a hologram; it's not even a mind-affecting spell, after all. It affects the senses and 'is not a personalized mental impression'. You 're thinking of a phantasm, which is not the usual sort of illusion an illusionary wall is made of.
Edit: this is more the usual starting point. Note that it is a figment.
@Boomerang Nebula
That would be delusion, not illusion.
Haha, well said!
The mind has an amazing ability to dupe itself into believing something that is not true.
Take this real world example: Anton-Babinski syndrome.
This is a condition where a person is blind but will absolutely deny that fact even in the face of clear evidence to the contrary.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anton%E2%80%93Babinski_syndrome
In the case of the illusionary wall mentioned in the opening post, if a character fails their saving throw to detect an illusionary wall then attempting to climb it won't help, they will just imagine they climbed to the top and then back down again.
"Yep, that wall is definitely real. I just climbed right to the top. That was a tough climb, lucky I didn't slip!".
A figment probably is more like a hologram; it's not even a mind-affecting spell, after all. It affects the senses and 'is not a personalized mental impression'. You 're thinking of a phantasm, which is not the usual sort of illusion an illusionary wall is made of.
Edit: this is more the usual starting point. Note that it is a figment.
So based on that if the illusionary wall was a phantasm you could fool people into thinking they were really climbing it? Cool. Is there a spell that can do that?
So based on that if the illusionary wall was a phantasm you could fool people into thinking they were really climbing it? Cool. Is there a spell that can do that?
Sadly no, PF phantasms tend to be stuff like phantasmal killer, which is probably the spell which gave the name to the subtype. There's a few spells in occult adventures which are phantasms with odd uses but nothing quite like that.
Edit: I always find stuff like this when I double check. Phantasmal Web works exactly like this. You can't escape the webs even by teleporting!
So based on that if the illusionary wall was a phantasm you could fool people into thinking they were really climbing it? Cool. Is there a spell that can do that?Sadly no, PF phantasms tend to be stuff like phantasmal killer, which is probably the spell which gave the name to the subtype. There's a few spells in occult adventures which are phantasms with odd uses but nothing quite like that.
Edit: I always find stuff like this when I double check. Phantasmal Web works exactly like this. You can't escape the webs even by teleporting!
Cool! Thanks for letting me know.
I think it's like some horror movies can scare you despite knowing its a movie and thus fictional
I think it's like some horror movies can scare you despite knowing its a movie and thus fictional
Eh, most horror movies these days don't really scare. They startle you, that's about it. They use music designed specifically to amp you, and then startle you with a noise or something else that's very surprising.
But in my opinion, startling someone is very different from actually making them afraid.
Phantasmal Web is a fun spell!