CRs and Character Levels

[Garion Beckett]

Ok i want to either become a vampire or a lich and each say base creature +2 CR... Does that just mean i don't lvl for 2 levels or something?

[CampinCarl9127]

Basically. It's up to GM discretion on how to balance out templates, but the general guidelines is that it is a 2 level adjustment.

[My Self]

Yes but no.

There is no official way to get the Vampire template without being slain and raised by a vampire. For the Lich template, there is a recommended way, but you can't just take it by substituting class levels.

As for CR, the Lich or Vampire template is equivalent to 2 class levels.

[GM 1990]

Garion Beckett wrote:

Ok i want to either become a vampire or a lich and each say base creature +2 CR... Does that just mean i don't lvl for 2 levels or something?

The CR (Challenge Rating) is used to develop encounter toughness when deciding if its appropriate for your party's levels. If you apply vampire or lich "template" to another creature it adds to that creatures effective CR or difficulty, for a lich you add 2 to its CR for those added abilities a lich template would give it. IE a "Goblin Lich" would move up 2 CR levels from 1/3 to 1, or a CR 10 monster becomes a CR 12.

An NPC with character classes has a CR 1 level below its effective class. IE a level 5 monk NPC is a CR 4. So applying the lich template

A PC Lich wouldn't use a CR, since its only meant to apply to encounters for PC's. If you wanted your PC to be a lich you'd need to work that out with your GM - if it was just for flavor, and you weren't going to get all of the special abilities that might be easily done. However, if you were going to actually play a lich with its special attacks etc, it could be a problem for game balance....not to mention group dynamics if the party is good aligned.

[Garion Beckett]

Nope we are a " weird spectrum" of alignments and it would be a GM eh?

[My Self]

Generally, CR = Level Adjustment.

[GM 1990]

Garion Beckett wrote:

Nope we are a " weird spectrum" of alignments and it would be a GM eh?

GM can allow what ever they want at their table. Would be good if you could explain how you saw it fitting into the party so they can at least have a feel for how those powers will affect game balance.

I guess in a case like that "a way" to do it would be to make your character's effective class for special abilities operate 2 levels lower and see how that works out.
IE: 1st and 2d level. no feats (from progression or class) or special abilities such as Rage, sneak attack, no animal companion, etc - basically nothing from the "abilities column" for the class.

3rd level and above - get the abilities for your class "minus 2", and feats from the basic progression table (odd levels).

You and your GM should probably playtest it out a little as well at a few levels to see how it affects play. the permanent paralysis special attack, is probably too powerful for a low-level PC. Anytime you start introducing monsters as playable characters (and a lich is a monster template), there are bound to be some game balance issue.

[Guru-Meditation]

Lich cant be "low-level" as you need Caster-Level 11 to craft the Phylactery.

And also need to spend 120.000 Gold in crafting it. Earliers SCs can manage that is around level 13, iirc. NSCs are poorer.

[alexd1976]

Depending on how you read the Bestiary, you may even get one level 'refunded' to you at level 3...

"Note that in a mixed group, the value of racial Hit Dice and abilities diminish as a character gains levels. It is recommended that for every 3 levels gained by the group, the monster character should gain an extra level, received halfway between the 2nd and 3rd levels. Repeat this process a number of times equal to half the monster's CR, rounded down. "

[Guru-Meditation]

alexd1976 wrote:

Depending on how you read the Bestiary, you may even get one level 'refunded' to you at level 3...

"Note that in a mixed group, the value of racial Hit Dice and abilities diminish as a character gains levels. It is recommended that for every 3 levels gained by the group, the monster character should gain an extra level, received halfway between the 2nd and 3rd levels. Repeat this process a number of times equal to half the monster's CR, rounded down. "

Doesnt that only cover races / templates which have racial Hit Dice, and not those that just give boni and abilities?

So a Minotaur with his racial HD get the adjustment lowered, while a Lich, who has no racial HD from his tempalte, stays with his 2 "virtual" levels.