Moving through enemy squares while blind


Rules Questions

Radiant Oath

There is some disagreement about moving through enemy squares when you can't see the enemy due to your blindness or the enemy's invisibility. If you cannot see the enemy as you go through their square, do you automatically run into them or can they simply move aside and let you pass? I've seen it run both ways and each GM insisted that their's was the only correct way. Since I frequently GM, I want to get it right.


As far as I can tell, the rules of occupying squares is more to represent that it's your area of control, since people aren't actually 5 feet wide. With that in mind, the rules are not 100% clear on this.

However, there are a few things it does tell you.
First, it says that you can move through an occupied square if the other person is friendly to you.
Second, it says that you cannot move through an occupied square if the other person is hostile to you, excepting if the person is helpless.
These rules seem to suggest that the character "guarding" his square chooses, based upon who he views as hostile, who he allows to move through his square.

In this situation, you, the character who cannot see his enemy, are trying to move into a square which you do not have knowledge of if it is occupied by the enemy. This, by my reading, means the unseen opponent now has a choice. He can choose to allow you into his square in an attempt to prevent you from discovering his location, or he can choose to prevent you from entering his square, and thus you suddenly become aware that something is in the way.

Basically, the control of positional advantage goes to the person who is not blind to the other one, and this seems to be in line with how one would think actual combat would work.


If a character can step aside and let an ally pass, they can step aside to let an enemy pass, so an enemy can do either: block the blind character or let them pass. In both cases the blind character would provoke an attack of opportunity for movement.


STRICTEST RAW, I would say you simply cannot make the movement, the GM has to tell you "that's illegal", which incidentally tells you where the invisible person is, but oh well too bad.

Because the only place it mentions stepping aside AFAIK for an enemy is the overrun rules, so if you aren't overrunning, then they can't. Unless I'm missing other places that's allowed that are more general.

However any sane GM should of course say "well if they can do it in overrun, they can do it any other time they like" as house rule.

edit: alternatively, what actually determines "friendly" and "unfriendly"? These don't actually seem like objective terms. So there may be an opening by strict RAW to allow stepping aside by just becomming temporarily friendly. Would probably preclude AoO on the first step in as a result of said friendliness though. But then you could stop being friendly before they moved back out of range if you wanted for AoO? Unless these are defined somewhere I've never seen.


Since you should be able to designate who is an enemy then you should be able to either allow the person to move through your square or not.

Quantum Steve, Based on my above comment I agree with you except for this:
If the creature occupying the square is treating a blind character as a non-enemy then the blind character would not provoke an AoO. Either the blind character is a non-enemy or the blind character isn't, cannot have it both ways.


Quote:
Either the blind character is a non-enemy or the blind character isn't, cannot have it both ways.

Well you sort of can like this:

[][][][]
A B C D

Invis guy at B, walker at A.
Invis guy treats walker as friendly as he moves from A to B, and from B to C.
Invis guy stops treating walker as friendly at this point, before he moves from C to D, and takes AoO.


Gauss wrote:
Since you should be able to designate who is an enemy then you should be able to either allow the person to move through your square or not.

There's a further complexity - if an invisible character can let you pass through their square, does that mean you don't notice them? Say you're walking down a 10 foot corridor and there's an invisible Large Demon who wants to let you pass - he can press himself against a wall, but you're still likely to brush past him as you move.


Quote:
he can press himself against a wall, but you're still likely to brush past him as you move.

Why? You can't walk down the middle, you have to pick a side, and he can squeeze to half his width, so you shouldn't touch.

The medium & medium example is actually more ambiguous. Not sure about that one how they would not brush.

Radiant Oath

In the case of blind NPCs walking past a PC, do they get to stop and make an attack at 50% miss chance just because they have entered the PCs square? (Note that no perception check occured.) When we objected, the GM countered (and one of the players adamantly agreed) that the PC couldn't move out of his initiative order, therefore he couldn't willingly avoid the NPC. However, other GMs have allowed this same kind of thing to protect their invisible NPCs and no amount of thrashing about in the room would yield the location of the invisible caster. I'm going to go with the allowing through and force a perception check if they want to "notice" the invisible person.


Ah, those are probably included in the rules of invisibility.

Now, i would argue that since the NPC is arguably moving out of your way to allow you to pass, the DC to notice him is 15, and the DC to pinpoint him is 35. Additionally, the character can use standard actions to search two individual squares at a time.

So the NPC can avoid you, but as soon as he enters combat it becomes much easier to notice. For example, if he makes a move at his max speed and he casts a spell (satisfying either speaking or being in combat), than the DC to pinpoint his location is only 10.

Basically, I think it's correct that an invisible creature can willingly avoid a creature who can't see it, however it's best a tool to keep them safe from you, not to make you endangered to them.


Crimeo wrote:
Quote:
he can press himself against a wall, but you're still likely to brush past him as you move.
Why? You can't walk down the middle, you have to pick a side, and he can squeeze to half his width, so you shouldn't touch.

Good point. I was thinking in realism terms, so I forgot that it's impossible to walk down the middle of many corridors due to the mystical lines of repulsion force that cut across every five feet of Golarion.


Matthew Downie wrote:
Crimeo wrote:
Quote:
he can press himself against a wall, but you're still likely to brush past him as you move.
Why? You can't walk down the middle, you have to pick a side, and he can squeeze to half his width, so you shouldn't touch.
Good point. I was thinking in realism terms, so I forgot that it's impossible to walk down the middle of many corridors due to the mystical lines of repulsion force that cut across every five feet of Golarion.

Ugh, "Repulsion Force"? Filthy casual, didn't you know that character position is a quantum state. A character is either in one square or in another square and quantum leaps from one position to the other without passing the intervening space. This is why a character doesn't provoke an AoO when approaching a reaching opponent from the diagonal. Get on my level, noob.

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