I'm not sure if this should go in general discussion or house rules, but it's a bit of both.
A friend pitched me an idea about counterspelling. What if counter spells worked something like this:
As an AoO, you can expend 1 point per spell level to attempt to counter a spell cast. Make a caster level check vs a DC of 15 + the spell's level and you counter it.
Now it doesn't have to be this idea specifically. The point is to make counterspelling so much easier that it reduces the power level of casters in the game and makes martial characters much more valuable.
When the majority of spells in combat are being countered, martial characters can rise up and become the heroes.
Granted, this doesn't necessarily work for out of combat situations, for which casters can still rule, but since pathfinder is primarily a combat game I was hoping to give martials an edge by reducing the amount of combat ending spells through counterspelling.
This also alludes to one of my favorite quotes about casters vs martials: "You be the magic against magic, I'll be the steel against steel."
The answer to the problem is not to reduce caster actions to frequently zero.
Sure some nerfs (like spell combos) could be warranted. But am against NO FUN FOR YOU answers.
How does this help martials though? They still need a caster around at all times in order to provide counterspells.
Note also that it scales slower than linearly, so high level mages will be counterspelling everything with almost absolute certainty. Actually, this system highly encourages the entire party to be at least partial, if not full, casters. The main way you are going to get spells through high level NPC casters here is to overwhelm their attacks of opportunity (and, similarly, you want to be able to freely counterspell anything they chuck at you in return).
Probably makes clerics the strongest class in the game, actually.
A solution I've been working on is giving some martials a flat bonus to resisting magic that goes up every other level. Our hope is to emulate force of will or denying magic or whatever explanation that tends to crop up in fiction regarding how some warriors can shrug off the effects of spells.
How does this help martials though? They still need a caster around at all times in order to provide counterspells.
Note also that it scales slower than linearly, so high level mages will be counterspelling everything with almost absolute certainty. Actually, this system highly encourages the entire party to be at least partial, if not full, casters. The main way you are going to get spells through high level NPC casters here is to overwhelm their attacks of opportunity (and, similarly, you want to be able to freely counterspell anything they chuck at you in return).
Probably makes clerics the strongest class in the game, actually.
Interestingly it diversifies the feats a caster might want to take to not only improve their A.o.E.'s but also increase them. Anything to diversify classes I'm, tacitly, in favour of.
I agree with O.P. counterspelling should be easier and I like the idea of a pool of points like Psionics but I agree that the pool seems too big at higher levels. I feel like reducing the amount of points makes it more meaningful as a choice while also allowing the caster to have some fun because sometimes their spells will get through.
How does this help martials though? They still need a caster around at all times in order to provide counterspells.
Note also that it scales slower than linearly, so high level mages will be counterspelling everything with almost absolute certainty. Actually, this system highly encourages the entire party to be at least partial, if not full, casters. The main way you are going to get spells through high level NPC casters here is to overwhelm their attacks of opportunity (and, similarly, you want to be able to freely counterspell anything they chuck at you in return).
Probably makes clerics the strongest class in the game, actually.
Interestingly it diversifies the feats a caster might want to take to not only improve their A.o.E.'s but also increase them. Anything to diversify classes I'm, tacitly, in favour of.
I agree with O.P. counterspelling should be easier and I like the idea of a pool of points like Psionics but I agree that the pool seems too big at higher levels. I feel like reducing the amount of points makes it more meaningful as a choice while also allowing the caster to have some fun because sometimes their spells will get through.
How does this create diversity? Now, every caster needs combat reflexes and some dexterity. That limits diversity because they are locked into a dex secondary role (already optimal for must full casters) and have a feat tax. It also makes an orange prism ioun stone a requisite buy. Not very interesting.
Okay, but it doesn't really answer the question. It doesn't do anything to improve martials, it just gives the caster classes more power against one another.
There are three and only three solutions to the caster martial disparity:
Improve Martials
Nerf Casters
A Bit of Both
This is in the second category. This is an attempt to reduce the effective power level of casters without actually removing spells or options; it allows them to focus on each other while martials can focus on everything else. It reduces the chance of having combat-ending spells go off and end combat before anyone else can even do anything.
Now, it doesn't have to be through the mechanism I proposed. I just tried to give an example to get the ball rolling (apparently some people missed that and took it as the only option).
The point, as I bolded in the opening post, is that by making the chance of counterspelling easier, it should allow martials to shine more in combat.
This is also primarily a thought experiment, and if there are good arguments against it, so be it. I'm not necessarily sold on the idea, I just haven't seen it before and wanted to bring it to the community.
Edit: and yeah, it probably is too many points.
I think that's a good point, Mr. Pitt.
I had considered writing that in, but at the last minute changed t to how the current system works (at least how it works once you've made your perception check and then had the right spell prepared and had already readied an action).
Unlike several other commenters, I think this clearly increases martial power. Yeah you may need a caster around, but they are forced into a greater % support role and require greater meatshielding from any mixed forces on the enemy side. So yes it achieves the technical goal.
But it sounds not fun at all for spellcasters to sit around nullifying one another all game long. This seems like a dealbreaker as is.
After I made this thread, I pitched the idea to another friend, and he said the same thing.
I love the concept and the flavor of it, but I agree that the end result is reduced fun for gamers at the table, and that's the last thing we want.
Im just gonna throw this out there.
This concept is TERRIFYING with Arcanists... especially purpose built counterspellers.... Arcanists are already one of the only classes in the game that can truly utilize counterspelling in any real meaningful matter
Yeah you may need a caster around, but they are forced into a greater % support role and require greater meatshielding from any mixed forces on the enemy side. So yes it achieves the technical goal.
Very, very few monster encounters will have a spellcaster around to counterspell your spellcasters, so for the majority of a adventuring career it is doing absolutely nothing. Then, occasionally, a spellcaster comes along and challenges your spellcasters. So, spellcasters dominate just as much as usual except when pitted against other spellcasters.....
Which is exactly what the current balance is like anyway.
There are three and only three solutions to the caster martial disparity:
Improve Martials
Nerf Casters
A Bit of BothThis is in the second category. This is an attempt to reduce the effective power level of casters without actually removing spells or options; it allows them to focus on each other while martials can focus on everything else. It reduces the chance of having combat-ending spells go off and end combat before anyone else can even do anything.
It doesn't reduce the overall power level of casters; it reduces the offensive power of casters (if they're taking on other casters) and increases the defensive power of casters (if they're taking on other casters), while having no effect on battles between casters and non-casters.
If there was, say, a way for a skilled warrior to use a magic sword to deflect a spell back at a caster, that would be a relative nerf to casters. Giving casters an extra ability is not that.
Having said that, it does reduce the chance of a spell ending a combat immediately (in a caster-v-caster battle), so if you don't like 'rocket tag' there's something to be said for it.
Having said that, it does reduce the chance of a spell ending a combat immediately (in a caster-v-caster battle), so if you don't like 'rocket tag' there's something to be said for it.
Except you can't take AOOs when flat-footed, so the first spells of the combat still go off unhindered.
To be effective in these scenarios, wizards will mostly be forced into divination subschool and improved initiative so that they go first and get their important spells off to disable the other caster.
I can imagine a lot of casters taking Combat Reflexes under this system.
I can imagine a lot of casters taking Combat Reflexes under this system.
Fair point actually - it becomes a feat tax for casters in this system between extra dispels and flat footed AOOs.
Something I'd probably add to this is making counterspelling provoke, just like casting. (If you take damage, treat the spell level of the spell you're trying to counter as the level you're "casting".) Maybe let you counterspell defensively, but increase the DC by 15 or something.
This lets martials help their own casters by preventing the enemy from counterspelling, lending to the trope of having martials protecting their mages and helping them be more effective. Without the martial there, the mage is purely a defensive thing.
If buffs required concentration, then martials could "counterspell"
Couple of suggestions to reduce the disparity:
• Disallow a '5 step in a round where a spell is being cast, even swift spells.
• Reduce spell durations to end of next turn or 5 min (spells with rounds duration are now end of next turn, spells with minutes duration end at the end of the encounter or 5 min). If a spell originally has 10 or more min/level then a spellcaster can spend 10 min/spell level to cast as a ritual (spending 25 gp per spell level to revert it to the normal duration).,
• require concentration checks for each spell kept in effect, increasing DC based on the # of spells and their level. So keep the base DC 10, increase the DC by 1 per level 9 of each spell + 1 for each level spell after the first.
• decrease casting times to accommodate the rapid spell durations.
• remove/modify Gate and Wish. Make both spells require a week to cast and negatively effect the caster.
If buffs required concentration, then martials could "counterspell"
And then the fighter would be very sad when the flying monster smacks the wizard with a damage spell. Martials need buffs, too. Unless you make potions really cheap, but casters can drink those too so it ends up playing out as just a subtle way of increasing wealth by level for everyone(which admittedly does decrease the disparity somewhat).
If buffs required concentration, then martials could "counterspell"And then the fighter would be very sad when the flying monster smacks the wizard with a damage spell. Martials need buffs, too. Unless you make potions really cheap, but casters can drink those too so it ends up playing out as just a subtle way of increasing wealth by level for everyone(which admittedly does decrease the disparity somewhat).
Martials not needing buffs would also be good.
Perhaps when you get hit while flying you need to make a DC 10+damage fly check or fall. Also increase the range of throwing weapons and sneak attack. Also make throwing weapons able to use strength to-hit.
If buffs required concentration, then martials could "counterspell"And then the fighter would be very sad when the flying monster smacks the wizard with a damage spell. Martials need buffs, too. Unless you make potions really cheap, but casters can drink those too so it ends up playing out as just a subtle way of increasing wealth by level for everyone(which admittedly does decrease the disparity somewhat).
Very cheap potions helps martials a lot more than they help casters. Yes, everybody saves money, but martials gain a level of self-sufficiency that is vastly more useful than the bit of WBL the Wizard gains (let's be real...the Wizard wasn't spending his gold on potions to begin with). The ability to make economical use of potions of Disguise Self, Darkvision (or Alter Self), Enlarge Person, Invisibility, Fly...hell even Beast Shape I and Gaseous Form...this is huge for the martial. The real benefit for the caster is that he doesn't have to function as a buff-dispenser.
Anyway, take it a step further and allow Quick Draw to produce any small object as a free action (so basically Mythical Quick Draw) and throw in Potion Glutton (without the dumb prereq) and suddenly you've got martials buffing themselves as a swift action on the first round of combat. That's a pretty big deal.
My martial suffered from not having a caster in the game. If you are going to nerf casters then you need to remove problems they are likely to be able to solve.
Such as....?
Such as....?
Removing obstacles such as black tentacles or those create pits spells, or summons.
Getting rid of debuffs, give me buffs(not exactly a problem to be removed, but still) :)
Ok. Conclusions.
First, let's start with the idea itself. It seems that making counterspelling easier is an idea worth pursuing, but making it too easy diminishes potential fun within the game. For example:
Player: I cast Magic Missile
GM: Enemy wizard counter spells it, your spell fails.
Player: Oh... Ok. :(
With round after round of that.
For this reason, I feel that using counterspelling as a way to diminish caster power is not an idea worth pursuing. While we want to make counterspelling easier, we do not want to diminish the fun of the game.
The other issue is that this only limits casters in one potential area (which I did mention in the opening post) and that it doesn't help martials rise up. I did not want to mentioning increasing martial power in this proposal, because there are already some excellent options, such as Path of War or Lemmy's Fighter Fix.
Next, the idea I proposed:
I agree that it is too many points. I like the ideas presented about the troubles with using the AoO mechanism, especially the problems with having to stand next to the caster. I do not agree that using AoO makes this a feat tax, for two reasons:
1) it's not needed for a caster; they would aready be able to do this as is, combat reflexes simply allows them to do it more often.
2) even if it was a feat tax, it's irrelevant, because casters aren't hurt by a feat taxes. Their power lies in spells, not locked behind feats like many martial classes.
Further ideas:
I was also toying with the idea of simply using spell slots to counter (keeping it easy, but sacrificing your spell slots to do it reduces your potential casting power per day). I'm not sure how this would work with point based casters, though.
I love the idea of cheaper potions for martial availability, and I also like the idea of removing the 5' step when casting a spell as a way to increase martials AND decrease casters. And I'm still hoping to see a cool mechanism to allow martial characters to Counterspell (I've seen it talked about, but I haven't seen a mechanism proposed).
Thanks everyone for your great input!
Just give every class spell sunder. Lets see what happens after that.
"Magic!? FRAK YOUR MAGIC!"
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• remove/modify Gate and Wish. Make both spells require a week to cast and negatively effect the caster.
Here we go, adapted from Fifth Edition:
*In 5e, this is Strength and it's reduced to 3 for 2d4 days. Targeting Constitution instead hits casters where it hurts.