[RAW Silliness] Improved Natural Weapon (Fist)

[Sacredless]

Silly question that I already know the answer to, but I would like to see the responses to this.

Quote:

A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.

Quote:

Improved Natural Attack (Monster)

Benefit: Choose one of the creature's natural attack forms (not an unarmed strike). The damage for this natural attack increases by one step on the following list, as if the creature's size had increased by one category. Damage dice increase as follows: 1d2, 1d3, 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 2d6, 3d6, 4d6, 6d6, 8d6, 12d6.

Like I said, this is silly and I know that this isn't true, but does the rule that specifies that monk's unarmed strikes are treated as natural weapons for the purpose of effects that improve natural weapons mean that a monk could conceivably take the Improved Natural Weapon feat?

Discuss. I'm curious as to what people's opinion is on this.

[KahnyaGnorc]

The feat specifies NOT an unarmed strike. Specific trumps general. In fact, that specific scenario is likely the reason that caveat was put into the feat in the first place.

[Sacredless]

Probably. On the other hand, the monk feature says specifically that [for the purpose of improving natural weapons], the unarmed strike of a monk is considered a natural weapon.

But I guess that means that [natural weapons, addendum: not unarmed strikes] means that their status as natural weapons is no longer relevant.

Still. Makes me wonder if, if this were not the case, there'd be monks with comically large fists walking around. Fists that account for 50% of their bodymass, etc. Would be comical.

[Duiker]

Even if you are going to argue that the monk is more specific, it's a feat for monsters, it's explicitly not for PCs.

[Sacredless]

Duiker wrote:

Even if you are going to argue that the monk is more specific, it's a feat for monsters, it's explicitly not for PCs.

Who are the real monsters, though?

Not to mention that I think tieflings can take the improved natural weapon feat for alternate racial trait, right?

[Kobold Catgirl]

Blocking the monk from the feat is correct, though a little silly—it's not a gamebreaking feat by any means.

[Nefreet]

Strong Jaw > Improved Natural Attack

[Sacredless]

Kobold Cleaver wrote:

Blocking the monk from the feat is correct, though a little silly—it's not a gamebreaking feat by any means.

Well, if I am correct, that would mean that at level 20, a monk's unarmed strikes in a flurry of blows would be able to do 7 attacks with 4d8 damage each. Which is twice the amount that a normal monk would do. However, that doesn't take into account modifiers, and I am honestly not at all sure how that would compare to other abilities. I've never been at level 20, so I have never seen those kinds of rolls.

[Nocte ex Mortis]

Well, the monk is most likely going to whiff on four to six out of his possible nine attacks (Flurry, Ki, Haste), so...

[Jeff Merola]

Duiker wrote:

Even if you are going to argue that the monk is more specific, it's a feat for monsters, it's explicitly not for PCs.

That's not actually correct. Here's what the book says:

Quote:

appendix 5: Monster feats

Most of the following feats apply specifically to monsters, although some player characters might qualify for them (particularly Craft Construct).

They're designed for monsters, not restricted to monsters.

That said, Unarmed Strike definitely cannot take Improved Natural Attack (which is a departure from how it worked in 3.5, where there was even an item that specifically granted it).

[KahnyaGnorc]

Sacredless wrote:

Probably. On the other hand, the monk feature says specifically that [for the purpose of improving natural weapons], the unarmed strike of a monk is considered a natural weapon.

But I guess that means that [natural weapons, addendum: not unarmed strikes] means that their status as natural weapons is no longer relevant.

Still. Makes me wonder if, if this were not the case, there'd be monks with comically large fists walking around. Fists that account for 50% of their bodymass, etc. Would be comical.

Monk's Unarmed Strike is an Unarmed Strike, a Manufactured Weapon, and a natrual Weapon.

The Feat applies to Natural Weapons but not Unarmed Strikes. While the monk's unarmed strikes do pass the first check (is a Natural Weapon), they fail the second check (since it is and Unarmed Strike).