So I'm playing a high level Paladin for a few weeks who has a rather high Charisma. According to the Table: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells, he would get spell slots above fourth level. How absurd would it be to allow any spell slots that are essentially "lost" due to Paladin's unfortunate lack of clerical spellcasting ability to simply be able to prepare more spells of their already known levels? It would seem appropriate, since were this a Sorcerer or Bard, I'd have gotten those spells anyway; and I hardly see it as overpowered since I'm not increasing the Spells DC, nor preparing a spell of fifth or above.
For example: If my charisma grants a bonus 5th level slot, being able to put a 4th level spell or lower in it.
As a 4th level caster, he wouldn't be getting the extra slots until 16th and 19th level and even then it would just be an extra 1-2 4th level spells (something he could achieve with a pearl of power long before this).
It's not overpowered at all, but it's such a minor change you have to wonder whether it's even worth the houserule.
Sorry, maybe I should clarify, this is a level 20 paladin with a Charisma of 34. I get bonus spell slots up to level 9, but essentially all level 5 through 9 spell slots simply vanish. This is kind of sad, and rather a waste.
Seems perfectly reasonable to me to allow the bonus 5th-9th level spells to be applied as any lower spell level. It's just a few spells per day - it wouldn't be game breaking.
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Effectively... you'd get another nine 4th level spell slots. In addition to the 4 already granted by high Cha and the 3 available as a 20th level Paladin.
Since you can already use a higher level spell slot to cast a lower level spell, there wouldn't be any point in assigning these 'extra slots' to lower levels. Indeed, you could leave them as 5th thru 9th level slots and say that you are just using them for the highest spell level you can cast. You could also house rule it such that you could cast a 4th level paladin spell with metamagic effects attached using the appropriate higher level spell slot.
RAW and RAI it clearly isn't allowed. It's also obviously a massive boost to the Paladin's casting capability. More than doubling the number of 4th level spells that can be cast. Several of the paladin spells are ridiculously over-powered for 4th level based specifically on the assumption that they will only get a handful of them per day. Changing that dynamic can get messy. For example, combine 'Heal Mount' with 'Shield Other' and a paladin with excessive casting capabilities suddenly becomes an extremely powerful healer. Thus, I wouldn't allow it unless the mixed casters in a party needed something to bring them up to the power level of other characters.
Thus, I wouldn't allow it unless the mixed casters in a party needed something to bring them up to the power level of other characters.
I see your points listed above, though I've chosen to highlight just this as: my Paladin is currently a Hospitaler, and the only individual of the group who has any healing capacity. Granted, I do have 22 uses of Lay on Hands, and since I took Extra Channel once (I have Channel Smite and Alignment Channel that I need to fuel) I have 17 uses of Channel Energy; thus I had no intention on using the extra slots for any kind of healing. I was going to use them for Paladin's Sacrifice and such in order to better protect my comrades. I believe of the four of us, I am also the only real front liner (AC and HP to withstand the charge of Balor's that I can only assume is coming), and it makes me leery going into a 20th level mini-campaign to be the one trying to protect everyone with fewer resources.
Since I see the question coming: Why don't you take the Leadership feat and get yourself some help? My GM specifically vetoed it. I had a Warpriest rolled out to stand alongside the Paladin, but it got tanked. Was going to be a good duo too; double tower shields, Covering Defense, Shield Wall, Body Guard, and Swift Aid for some nice front line AC, backed up by dual healing/melee damage. I was ready to GO!
If your GM vetoed leadership which is in the rules, then they will likely veto this extremely overpowered house rule you are proposing. If you wanted more spells, you could have made an oradin instead of a paladin.
I can agree, though I don't agree with the reasoning behind the veto of Leadership. He said, and I quote "since no one else is playing two characters, I don't think I'm going to let you either." which was after saying "only one person is allowed to have Leadership." So... While I assume it was from the standpoint of a level 20 game being overly long with the action economy, it was still a little bit of a low blow.
Per RAW you do not get these extra Level 5+ spell slots on, because they simply do not exist for a Paladin. Cant make something "hold more stuff" that doesnt exist.
In 3.5, a level 21 Wizard or Cleric would get a level 10 spell slot. They could use this for casting a lvl 9 spell or an effective lvl 10 spell with metamagic.
If I was your DM, once you got 21 levels in Paladin, I would let you have a 5th level spell slot. Well, 0 + bonus spells that is. And you'd get 6th level slots at lvl 23 and so on.
At 20+ you're battling Gods across multiple planes of existence. Balance and reason left several levels ago.
In 3.5, a level 21 Wizard or Cleric would get a level 10 spell slot. They could use this for casting a lvl 9 spell or an effective lvl 10 spell with metamagic.
If I was your DM, once you got 21 levels in Paladin, I would let you have a 5th level spell slot. Well, 0 + bonus spells that is. And you'd get 6th level slots at lvl 23 and so on.
At 20+ you're battling Gods across multiple planes of existence. Balance and reason left several levels ago.
The spell slot would exist, but couldn't be used until the character took the Improved Spell Capacity, which opened only one level higher than previously cast (First time granted one level 10 slot and any bonus spells slots, 2nd opened 11, and so on.) You never automatically received your 10+ spell levels unless your DM and players were unaware of this.
While I can agree on the sentiment that granting Paladins additional spells per day CAN be overpowered; but forcing them to wait until 21st level, then burning a feat for 5th level spells, something that Clerics received 13 levels earlier just seems rather painful.
But since it is RAW/RAI, and as a majority of the people here seem against it, going to dismiss it. Thanks for the input and feedback.
In 3.5, a level 21 Wizard or Cleric would get a level 10 spell slot. They could use this for casting a lvl 9 spell or an effective lvl 10 spell with metamagic.
If I was your DM, once you got 21 levels in Paladin, I would let you have a 5th level spell slot. Well, 0 + bonus spells that is. And you'd get 6th level slots at lvl 23 and so on.
At 20+ you're battling Gods across multiple planes of existence. Balance and reason left several levels ago.
The spell slot would exist, but couldn't be used until the character took the Improved Spell Capacity, which opened only one level higher than previously cast (First time granted one level 10 slot and any bonus spells slots, 2nd opened 11, and so on.) You never automatically received your 10+ spell levels unless your DM and players were unaware of this.
While I can agree on the sentiment that granting Paladins additional spells per day CAN be overpowered; but forcing them to wait until 21st level, then burning a feat for 5th level spells, something that Clerics received 13 levels earlier just seems rather painful.
But since it is RAW/RAI, and as a majority of the people here seem against it, going to dismiss it. Thanks for the input and feedback.
It actually RAW would not exist:
In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Charisma score (see Table: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells). When Table: Paladin indicates that the paladin gets 0 spells per day of a given spell level, she gains only the bonus spells she would be entitled to based on her Charisma score for that spell level.
This indicates that because you never get level 5+ spells, you never get those bonus spell slots, which is different than 3.5.
However, I, personally, would still give you the bonus spells because you are already a martial with utility casting (not a much so as ranger but it's still better for you to attack than cast) and the only way you'd be able to use all those spells is by casting them in a out-of-combat roleplay scenario. My rule of thumb is if you are using abilities as basis of what you are doing outside of combat, more power to you.
Yeah, this is pretty powerful, and the rules you cited are working fully as intended. The rest isn't wasted. It simply isn't relevant—bonus spells apply to everything you can already cast, and nothing more. A fighter with 18 Intelligence doesn't get bonus first level spells. Why should a paladin? ;P
However, I, personally, would still give you the bonus spells because you are already a martial with utility casting (not a much so as ranger but it's still better for you to attack than cast) and the only way you'd be able to use all those spells is by casting them in a out-of-combat roleplay scenario. My rule of thumb is if you are using abilities as basis of what you are doing outside of combat, more power to you.
Yeeeaaah... it would most certainly be for inside combat scenarios. Sacrificial Oath, Litany of Vengeance, King's Castle, Litany of Escape, and Stay the Hand all spring to mind. Litany of Escape and King's Castle especially for their use in getting my companions out of harm's way. Having more uses per day since I am essentially the first and last line of defense would be a blessing.
A fighter with 18 Intelligence doesn't get bonus first level spells. Why should a paladin? ;P
Little bit of straw man there, since Fighters can't cast AT ALL, while Paladins can and do cast divine spells frequently.
I'm playing a 16th level paladin right now... and I already have more slots then I can ever use. I just have never seem to be able to justify using a standard action to cast a spell when he's also the main tank of the party.
The ones you listed there... didn't really impress me much. /shrug
HOWEVER... Hero's Defiance and Angelic Aspect (Greater) are GLORIOUS spells that should always be prepared in all situations. usually in multiples if the day fight will last long.
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A fighter with 18 Intelligence doesn't get bonus first level spells. Why should a paladin? ;PLittle bit of straw man there, since Fighters can't cast AT ALL, while Paladins can and do cast divine spells frequently.
They are casters, but of comparatively limited power compared to full caster classes. That's the price you pay for pursuing a profession that puts so much focus on other things.
As for the aptness of the comparison with fighters, a paladin gets the same number of 5th through 9th level spell slots as the fighter gets of all levels, none.
HOWEVER... Hero's Defiance and Angelic Aspect (Greater) are GLORIOUS spells that should always be prepared in all situations.
Hero's Defiance is a given, but I don't see Angelic Aspect in the PRD.
Little bit of straw man there
And another bit over there
And another bit over there
Damn those flying monkeys.
HOWEVER... Hero's Defiance and Angelic Aspect (Greater) are GLORIOUS spells that should always be prepared in all situations.Hero's Defiance is a given, but I don't see Angelic Aspect in the PRD.
It's from Champions of Purity.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/angelic-aspect
3 levels, Lesser, regular and Greater... each better versions of Awesome.
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This is so weird. A rules discussion including disagreements...without anybody being called a powergamer, a martialhater, a fool or just in general wrong?
*Double-take*
Oh, right. This is the House Rules subforum, not the General Discussion or Rules Questions subforums.
...
Can I just...stay...here?
It's from Champions of Purity.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/angelic-aspect
3 levels, Lesser, regular and Greater... each better versions of Awesome.
I'll be honest, not sure if my DM is going to go for non-Paizo PRD listed material, but I'll ask him. While I personally won't benefit from a lot of the spell as I've either the same or better for most of it, the darkvision and low-light might come in handy; the extension to other people for the AC +4 bonus on saves and lesser invulnerability (for those pesky anti-paladin's) might keep other people alive.
This is so weird. A rules discussion including disagreements...without anybody being called a powergamer, a martialhater, a fool or just in general wrong?
*Double-take*
Oh, right. This is the House Rules subforum, not the General Discussion or Rules Questions subforums.
...
Can I just...stay...here?
Hehe. Sure, we have cookies and pie and sky cake. To be fair though, I wasn't defending the position that it SHOULD have been added at all, merely collecting opinions from the masses, which I got. A select few cheers, mostly jeers.
This is so weird. A rules discussion including disagreements...without anybody being called a powergamer, a martialhater, a fool or just in general wrong?
And it's a paladin thread...
Maybe the rule discussion acid neutralized the base of paladin thread issues creating a neutral environment?
I'll be honest, not sure if my DM is going to go for non-Paizo PRD listed material, but I'll ask him. While I personally won't benefit from a lot of the spell as I've either the same or better for most of it, the darkvision and low-light might come in handy; the extension to other people for the AC +4 bonus on saves and lesser invulnerability (for those pesky anti-paladin's) might keep other people alive.It's from Champions of Purity.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/angelic-aspect
3 levels, Lesser, regular and Greater... each better versions of Awesome.
Personaly, I'm a big fan of the Immunity to Acid, cold, petrification... (I just TOOK a blast from a Black Wyrm tuesday and grinned back) Flight, and both dark/low vision.
Bonuses to poison, fire, electricity...and those other bonuses are just icing.
Frankly I consider it the most OP spell I've ever used... there's just so much going ON there and for the cost of a standard action. I tend to feel guilty about using it...
However, it IS a Paizo product based in Golarion... so even by my DM's 'no-3p' rules, it's a legit source, and he sends up against some SERIOUS threats... ;)
I'm going to throw my two cents in, as this is a house rule you want to use.
1) As stated above, you could use these extra spell slots of 5th-9th level for only adding lower spells with metamagic feats added to them. Thus, you could do a 4th level spell with a metamagic feat that increases the level by 4 or 5 levels.
2) You could simply turn these extra spell levels into spell points. Meaning, with a 34 Cha, you gain 2 bonus spells of 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th level, plus one bonus spell of 9th level. Converting these to equivalent spell levels, this gives you a total of 5th x2 (10 spell levels) + 6th x2 (12 spell levels) + 7th x2 (14 spell levels) + 8th x2 (16 spell levels) + 9th x1 (9 spell levels) = 10 +12 +14 +16 +9 = 61 extra spell levels. As a 20th level Character with such a high Charisma, you could go with allowing the paladin to simply use these 61 extra spell levels to cast more 1st-4th level spells, and incorporate the use of metamagic feats to eat up these spell levels too. So you could cast 61 extra 1st elvel paladin spell levels, or any combination of 61 spell levels worth of extra spells. This makes super high stats actually mean something again. 34 is a god level score for Charisma, just something to consider.
Another way to go could be using these extra spell slots at twice the cost of the spell. This, to cast a 1st level spell, you would expend 2 of these 61 extra spell levels. A 4th level spell would cost 8 spell levels.
You could also look at the Mythic level stuff and see if there are any rules related to this sort of thing.
In reality however, RAW/RAI, you actually don't get those spell slots as you can't cast anything higher than 4th level spells. Of course, you could start taking a new class, like cleric or warpriest and start gaining levels and spells in that class too to eventually make use of those spells.
Yeeeaaah... it would most certainly be for inside combat scenarios. Sacrificial Oath, Litany of Vengeance, King's Castle, Litany of Escape, and Stay the Hand all spring to mind. Litany of Escape and King's Castle especially for their use in getting my companions out of harm's way. Having more uses per day since I am essentially the first and last line of defense would be a blessing.However, I, personally, would still give you the bonus spells because you are already a martial with utility casting (not a much so as ranger but it's still better for you to attack than cast) and the only way you'd be able to use all those spells is by casting them in a out-of-combat roleplay scenario. My rule of thumb is if you are using abilities as basis of what you are doing outside of combat, more power to you.
You're the reason paladins get a bad name, always with the into killings and never trying to teach people the error of their ways through kindness, shine light on their obfuscation, or even prepare some create water or dream feast for the man down on his luck.
You're the reason paladins get a bad nameYeeeaaah... it would most certainly be for inside combat scenarios. Sacrificial Oath, Litany of Vengeance, King's Castle, Litany of Escape, and Stay the Hand all spring to mind. Litany of Escape and King's Castle especially for their use in getting my companions out of harm's way. Having more uses per day since I am essentially the first and last line of defense would be a blessing.However, I, personally, would still give you the bonus spells because you are already a martial with utility casting (not a much so as ranger but it's still better for you to attack than cast) and the only way you'd be able to use all those spells is by casting them in a out-of-combat roleplay scenario. My rule of thumb is if you are using abilities as basis of what you are doing outside of combat, more power to you.
Wow. You're putting him pretty high on the totem pole there, considering all he said was that what you see as a roleplaying device probably would not be used as a roleplaying device.
It's like if someone told me, "You're the reason threads get locked so often nowadays." People! I'm just one kobold! I do what I can, but I can't do it alone. Please fund my kickstarter kthxbye.
You're the reason paladins get a bad nameYeeeaaah... it would most certainly be for inside combat scenarios. Sacrificial Oath, Litany of Vengeance, King's Castle, Litany of Escape, and Stay the Hand all spring to mind. Litany of Escape and King's Castle especially for their use in getting my companions out of harm's way. Having more uses per day since I am essentially the first and last line of defense would be a blessing.However, I, personally, would still give you the bonus spells because you are already a martial with utility casting (not a much so as ranger but it's still better for you to attack than cast) and the only way you'd be able to use all those spells is by casting them in a out-of-combat roleplay scenario. My rule of thumb is if you are using abilities as basis of what you are doing outside of combat, more power to you.
Wow. You're putting him pretty high on the totem pole there, considering all he said was that what you see as a roleplaying device probably would not be used as a roleplaying device.
It's like if someone told me, "You're the reason threads get locked so often nowadays." People! I'm just one kobold! I do what I can, but I can't do it alone. Please fund my kickstarter kthxbye.
He made it sound like he's going to use the spells to get repeated castings of combat only spells, and I'm not saying he's breaking the class, I'm saying that's the reason everyone calls the paladin overzealous because they all use combat spells instead of a simple zone of truth or some s*~~.
I'm going to throw my two cents in, as this is a house rule you want to use.
1) As stated above, you could use these extra spell slots of 5th-9th level for only adding lower spells with metamagic feats added to them. Thus, you could do a 4th level spell with a metamagic feat that increases the level by 4 or 5 levels.
2) You could simply turn these extra spell levels into spell points. Meaning, with a 34 Cha, you gain 2 bonus spells of 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th level, plus one bonus spell of 9th level. Converting these to equivalent spell levels, this gives you a total of 5th x2 (10 spell levels) + 6th x2 (12 spell levels) + 7th x2 (14 spell levels) + 8th x2 (16 spell levels) + 9th x1 (9 spell levels) = 10 +12 +14 +16 +9 = 61 extra spell levels. As a 20th level Character with such a high Charisma, you could go with allowing the paladin to simply use these 61 extra spell levels to cast more 1st-4th level spells, and incorporate the use of metamagic feats to eat up these spell levels too. So you could cast 61 extra 1st elvel paladin spell levels, or any combination of 61 spell levels worth of extra spells. This makes super high stats actually mean something again. 34 is a god level score for Charisma, just something to consider.
Another way to go could be using these extra spell slots at twice the cost of the spell. This, to cast a 1st level spell, you would expend 2 of these 61 extra spell levels. A 4th level spell would cost 8 spell levels.
You could also look at the Mythic level stuff and see if there are any rules related to this sort of thing.
In reality however, RAW/RAI, you actually don't get those spell slots as you can't cast anything higher than 4th level spells. Of course, you could start taking a new class, like cleric or warpriest and start gaining levels and spells in that class too to eventually make use of those spells.
Both of these solutions are eminently suitable for resolving your problems, with one caveat.
The paladin should spend AT LEAST a feat for the additional spell levels being opened to her, and spending a feat for each additional spell level is actually precedent under the Epic Rules.
i.e. it was possible for a paladin to get 9th level spells under the Epic Rules, too. But it took 5 feats for them to do so, which didn't leave a lot of room for the metamagic you wanted to fill them with...except they really only needed extend spell and persistent spell at that time, right?
==Aelryinth
HOWEVER... Hero's Defiance and Angelic Aspect (Greater) are GLORIOUS spells that should always be prepared in all situations.Hero's Defiance is a given, but I don't see Angelic Aspect in the PRD.That's because that family of spells isn't open source.
Don't you have to be an aasimar to cast them anyway?
Nope. No Racial requirements. :)
What is the point of race spells if any tom dick or jane can cast them?Nope. No Racial requirements. :)HOWEVER... Hero's Defiance and Angelic Aspect (Greater) are GLORIOUS spells that should always be prepared in all situations.Hero's Defiance is a given, but I don't see Angelic Aspect in the PRD.That's because that family of spells isn't open source.
Don't you have to be an aasimar to cast them anyway?
Flavor.
The problem is that if they're generically available... they don't have any flavor. they're just another spell to cast.Flavor.What is the point of race spells if any tom dick or jane can cast them?Nope. No Racial requirements. :)HOWEVER... Hero's Defiance and Angelic Aspect (Greater) are GLORIOUS spells that should always be prepared in all situations.Hero's Defiance is a given, but I don't see Angelic Aspect in the PRD.That's because that family of spells isn't open source.
Don't you have to be an aasimar to cast them anyway?
Is there a reason you consider this a racial spell or even a Aasimar spell? Most of the bonuses it gives you Aassimars already have... Darkvision, electric/acid/cold resists... it's actually LESS useful for them.
Champions of Purity is a book about playing 'Good' Characters and gave new 'Good-aligned' spells, some that let you take on celestial properties.
Aasimmars never figured into it.
So wait, spells that don't have restrictions on use "don't have any flavor"? That seems like a major overstatement.
So wait, spells that don't have restrictions on use "don't have any flavor"? That seems like a major overstatement.
Always assume worst case when writing rules, if someone has the flavor before using the spell its fine, but if someone just wants a powerful spell and it doesn't have some sort of flavor requirement or connect otherwise, then they are just playing 4e.
So wait, spells that don't have restrictions on use "don't have any flavor"? That seems like a major overstatement.Always assume worst case when writing rules, if someone has the flavor before using the spell its fine, but if someone just wants a powerful spell and it doesn't have some sort of flavor requirement or connect otherwise, then they are just playing 4e.
So every single spell in the CRB is flavorless, and every single feat is flavorful?
A race requirement for an optimal option is really just a big sticker saying, "PLAY AN AASIMAR". That's not flavorful. It's just a limit on what the powergamer can get away with. It's about as inherently flavorful as requiring Combat Expertise before you can get Improved Disarm.