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Hopefully not, because that has nothing to do with the 'Kitsune Form', it's simply referencing the base creature: A Kitsune.His argument was, that the feat only allows to change from "kitsune form" into "fox form" thus a human cannot use it to change into a fox, since he is in "human form" - if he follows this line of thought, a kitsune in "human form" must change to "kitsune form" first, before the feat allows the change to "fox form."
I can argue why the fox form might work (rp wise), so I'd only be concerned about a potential change in power.
But, if we assume that kitsune und human are equal, than this feat does not give a human a greater benefit than a kitsune.So, while I don't think that it was intended, I cannot see why one shouldn't be able to do it.
Since shifting into human form via Change Shape does suppress your racial Ex and Su abilities, yeah you would have to go back to your birth form to use Fox Shape. Since this is a "kitsune required" feat that gives an actual ability vs a social advantage, as a GM I'd rule it got suppressed too. For a human with kitsune blood (via RH feat) that wouldn't be an issue, unless they used Polymorph to look like someone else.
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My point is that a human doesn't have any other forms, the character is just himself and that is all.
Just to be clear, this was a feat that was meant to be taken by a Kitsune, so it is assumed, as the feat was written, that the character would have the ability that allows for the additional form. For whatever reason, Racial Heritage was never taken into account.
Now, what is being said is the same scenario as the Tail Slap discussion, and the answer will likely be the same as it was then.
Need (thing) to use (ability). In this case, need Shape Change to use Fox Shape.
Need Tail to use Tail Slap.
Need Spell like abilities to gain more spell like abilities, or replace them. (Kitsune tails or Gnome Trait)
etc....
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Since shifting into human form via Change Shape does suppress your racial Ex and Su abilities, yeah you would have to go back to your birth form to use Fox Shape. Since this is a "kitsune required" feat that gives an actual ability vs a social advantage, as a GM I'd rule it got suppressed too. For a human with kitsune blood (via RH feat) that wouldn't be an issue, unless they used Polymorph to look like someone else.Hopefully not, because that has nothing to do with the 'Kitsune Form', it's simply referencing the base creature: A Kitsune.His argument was, that the feat only allows to change from "kitsune form" into "fox form" thus a human cannot use it to change into a fox, since he is in "human form" - if he follows this line of thought, a kitsune in "human form" must change to "kitsune form" first, before the feat allows the change to "fox form."
I can argue why the fox form might work (rp wise), so I'd only be concerned about a potential change in power.
But, if we assume that kitsune und human are equal, than this feat does not give a human a greater benefit than a kitsune.So, while I don't think that it was intended, I cannot see why one shouldn't be able to do it.
I think if the Shapeshifter Archtype for the Ranger or the like was the bases for using Fox Shape, the abilities of both would share the limits (as far as time).
What does the other posters think, should Shapeshifter allow for Fox Form?
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So your saying all humans have tails?
Would you call it a Booty?
Well, humans have a tailbone, meaning at some point in the distant past proto-humans had tails. And a human with kitsune heritage could spontaneously grow a tail. Due to the text of the feat Magical Tail (and it's inherent nature) I might disallow a human character with no magic from taking the feat though, even if they do have racial heritage kitsune.
Would a similar requirement for Fox Shape of actually having magic suit you? It's clear the feat gives a supernatural or magical ability. Thus saying "you have to have magic to power it" couldn't be too far beyond the realms of reasonable. Similar to how I'd rule that a human who does take magical tails doesn't get the spell like abilities.
Even if the latest Hero Lab update did include kitsune without the Kitsune Magic feat getting the SLA from magical tail. it just makes sense that without kitsune magic, you can't get more kitsune magic.
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Well Scott, even if the wording was just "the kitsune feats on page 5 are legal for play"... dwarves and elves still couldn't take the feats with Kitsune listed as a prereq. Why? Because they are a dwarf or elf. Nor could humans, in general, take them. It's the specific interaction of using racial heritage that brings it into doubt. But I'm inclined to think the wording was intended to mean you must actually be race: kitsune to take feats on page 5 of Dragon Empires Primer in PFS. That's how I initially read it. And till I hear otherwise from an official source, that's how I'll rule it as a GM in PFS.
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Daniel. I would allow any of these feats to be taken. It is whether or not they provide the benefits that is in question. The tails may add a tail for a human, but the spell like abilities would likely be absent.
Fox Shape has a description and the Rules text. Seems some are ignoring the "fluff" for a liberal reading of the feat as a whole.
A kitsune Variant Trait takes away Change Shape? I doubt they would take Fox Shape if they did that.
BTW, the overall discussion about humans having tails at one time had been discussed in the other thread, the point would be that the typical human would not have a tail, nor manifest one because of a feat.
I know some are adamant about the point of contention, we all have particular niggles about the 3.5 system that PF adopted that seems to be counter intuitive to how it should be. Vancian casting, Martials not getting nice stuff, anything that envolves polymorphing... The list can go on and on.
This is simple compared to that and really easy to figure out. If you leave out a part of the overall presentation, though, something goes amiss.
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To be clear, I talk of a home game here, not PFS. They are only legal with the race in question, Kitsune, in PFS. I actually have a character that will be taking this feat. (Shelly Shucks)
There are other races that allow for Racial Heritage in Additional Resources, such as the Orc and others, but the Goblin is more specific than the others about only being taken if one has the Boon for Goblin. (This is for both Goblin character and characters who are using Racial Heritage)
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BTW, the overall discussion about humans having tails at one time had been discussed in the other thread, the point would be that the typical human would not have a tail, nor manifest one because of a feat.
Your right, they wouldn't have a tail. Nor would they manifest one because of a feat... unless the feat specifically says they grow a tail like Magical Tail does. :)
The feat's description, for those unaware, is
flavor text
You grow an extra tail that represents your growing
magical powers.
Tail represents growing magical powers, so a human fighter, regardless of heritage, probably wouldn't grow one. Then the rules text for the feat
Prerequisite: Kitsune.
Benefit: You gain a new spell-like ability, each usable
twice per day, from the following list, in order: disguise self,
charm person, misdirection, invisibility, suggestion, displacement,
confusion, dominate person. For example, the first time you
select this feat, you gain disguise self 2/day; the second time
you select this feat, you gain charm person 2/day. Your caster
level for these spells is equal to your Hit Dice. The DCs for
these abilities are Charisma-based.Special: You may select this feat up to eight times.
Each time you take it, you gain an additional ability as
described above.
So you grow a tail that represents the magic power that you've accumulated. This is perfectly in line with lore about kitsune. The older and more powerful a kitsune, the more tails they have. And a nine tailed kitsune is REALLY old and powerful. I'd allow a human with racial heritage: kitsune to take the feat, but probably only if their class provides magic in one form or another. They wouldn't get the SLA, just a tail that represents their growing magical power due to kitsune heritage. Although for a non-PFS game I might say it does instead grant +1 DC to enchantment spells they cast. Which is 1/2 the benefits Kitsune magic grants.
All that aside, something else from the same book that's rather important to note:
NEW RACIAL RULES
The following options are available to kitsune. At the GM’s
discretion, other appropriate races may also make use of
some of these.Kitsune Feats
Kitsune have access to the following feats. See page 5 of
Pathfinder Player Companion: Dragon Empires Primer for the Fox
Shape, Swift Kitsune Shapechanger, and Vulpine Pounce feats
So, here's a non-PFS RAW ruling on if humans can take kitsune feats with racial heritage. The feat makes it appropriate. But it's at GM discretion, so ask first.
That said, I'm off to read something besides forum posts.
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Well, a Scion of Humanity Aasimar could have a tail, and the Racial Heritage feat, allowing the use of Tail Terror.
Probably not since that racial trait means you can easily pass for human, which in turn means you probably don't have non-human traits, or only easily hidden ones. No tail, no glowing eyes, no feathers for hair, or anything like that.
Had to look it up real quick.
Scion of Humanity: Some aasimars’ heavenly ancestry
is extremely distant. An aasimar with this racial
trait counts as an outsider (native) and a humanoid
(human) for any effect related to race, including feat
prerequisites and spells that affect humanoids. She can
pass for human without using the Disguise skill. This
racial trait replaces the Celestial language and alters the
native subtype.
Kind of hard to pass as human if you have a visible tail :)
Now, an Agathion-Blooded aasimar probably could legitimately claim they have a tail. If the GM allowed that is.
Off topic, how is THIS aasimar varient ability useful out of a handful of very rare situations:
If you stand atop a grave and meditate for 10 minutes,
you learn the name of whoever lies buried below.
Couldn't you just, I don't know, look at the grave marker and save 10 minutes of standing in place?
When you need to learn the name of a dead guy, graves have this nasty habit of being unmarked or ancient.
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I was actually talking about the Tail Terror feat in relation to Tails. Some thought taking that feat would grow tails. It doesn't.Indeed it doesn't. However it stipulates something you need to have in order to use it [a tail.]
Fox form doesn't, because it does not.
We continue to disagree on this point.
I believe that previous discussions and what the developer said in the Tails thread has my view being more likely than the other.
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Okay, so I've only been noticing the same circle of arguments for a while. I think the best solution in this situation is "FAQ and move on", or we're just going to end up following that circle Ad Nauseam.
Such being the case, I would like to present both sides of the case as a summary so that people can have all the relevant information, and then decide for themselves. Though I wish I could edit the OP with this.
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The Question: Although a human can qualify for the "Fox Shape" feat by taking "Racial Heritage(Kitsune)", can he benefit from its effects?
Fox Shape Feat:
Fox Shape (Kitsune)
You can change into a fox in addition to your other forms.Prerequisites: Cha 13, base attack bonus +3, kitsune.
Special: A kitsune may select this feat any time she would gain a feat.
Benefit: You can take the form of a fox whose appearance is static and cannot be changed each time you assume this form. Your bite attack’s damage is reduced to 1d3 points of damage on a hit, but you gain a +10 racial bonus on Disguise checks made to appear as a fox. Changing from kitsune to fox shape is a standard action. This ability otherwise functions as beast shape II, and your ability scores change accordingly.
Racial Heritage Feat:
Racial Heritage (Human)
The blood of a non-human ancestor flows in your veins.
Prerequisite: Human.
Benefit: Choose another humanoid race. You count as both human and that race for any effects related to race. For example, if you choose dwarf, you are considered both a human and a dwarf for the purpose of taking traits, feats, how spells and magic items affect you, and so on.
Reasons for "No":
-The text at the beginning states "You can change into a fox in addition to your other forms". This means that the feat requires the "shape change" racial ability normally possessed by a regular Kitsune character. Because the human does not possess that ability, he cannot use this extension of it.-The text found within the benefits section of the feat, "Changing from kitsune to fox shape is a standard action", means that you specifically have to be in kitsune form in order to change to a fox. Humans do not have a kitsune form.
Reasons for "Yes":
-A feat's entire rules set is contained in the "prerequisites", "benefits", and "special" sections of the feat. The language is universally "summarizing" and/or "fluff" and should not be weighed against the rules sections to determine mechanical function. Thus, the text of the ability never actually requires change shape.
-The text of Racial Heritage states "you are considered both a human and a [chosen race] for the purpose of taking traits, feats, how spells and magic items affect you, and so on." This covers the kitsune portion of "changing from kitsune to fox shape is a standard action".
Other relevant information:
-This combination is made nearly explicitly illegal for PFS characters by PFS houserules. This makes it a moot point if you're playing PFS, unless certain restrictions are removed in the future.
-Unless otherwise stated, feats are extraordinary abilities. This means that the argument where you have to assume what type of ability it is doesn't help disprove it by raw, but it does support the idea that "no" is at the very least rules as intended, since it does not make much sense as EX.
-Unless otherwise stated, an ability is at-will. There are many other feats and abilities that have no stated limit per day, and they are accepted to be at-will. This means that the feat is not leaving out any information in this case.
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Did I leave anything out, do you guys think? Do I sound at all biased? I'm trying to sound as non-biased as possible, but I am pretty thoroughly convinced on my side of the argument, so it's pretty entirely possible that I let something slip on by. I wanted to note that I specifically included the "other relevant information" section because they're points that were brought up but that I no longer believe to be points of contention.
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There are other abilities/feats that give Darkvision. One gives some sort of vision depending on what you already have, and extends Darkvision if you do have that.
I have one character that can use Darkvision to 120 ft.
OP... That summarizes the debate thus far, except I never said that the feat itself can not be taken. It is whether or not it provides the ability that is in question. I would think that a character would not take the feat if it does nothing for him, but that is another subject.
Edit... Oh, and I don't really think it matter if the Kitsune is in his base form or his human form, I believe he can go into fox form from either, at least that is how I will play it with Shelly Shucks.
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OP... That summarizes the debate thus far, except I never said that the feat itself can not be taken. It is whether or not it provides the ability that is in question.
I do believe that's how I worded the question, and I think everyone agrees on that point.
Seperate post.
If Fox Form is like Tail Terror and the ability can't be used by the human, I have a question for those here.
I mentioned it before, the Ranger Archtype Shapeshifter. Is the Ability that the Archtype provides enough for the human to use the Fox Form ability from the feat?
This is a bit of a double question, since the premise requires that "the human requires additional forms" be true.
I think, personally, that this ranger archetype is irrelevant to the fox shape feat either way. If the fox shape feat's description is, in fact, rules text, then it is almost certainly referring to the change shape racial ability. Thus, the shapeshifter archetype's ability wouldn't qualify for it. If the fox shape feat's description is not rules text, then it is irrelevant and fox shape provides an ability that functions in a vacuum no matter what other abilities you have.
Well , after reading part of the thread , to me atleast , it is valid.
So if I take racial heritage Dwarf can I take feats that have the prerequisites dark vision and have dark vision? (being Human)
If Darkvision is a prerequisite for the feat, then no.
If the feat tangentially references darkvision or grants an ability that is somewhat similar to darkvision without actually being darkvision at all (blindness, for example), then yes.
Here's a handy litmus test-
Does the physical feature an ability requires have its own mechanical benefit?
If yes, a character cannot be assumed to have the feature unless they also have the corresponding benefit.
If no, then it doesn't matter. The feature is purely descriptive and the feat can be assumed to grant that feature.
An example of this: In the Ravenloft campaign setting there was a Red Haired feat. It granted some minor supernatural abilities related to the lore of the setting. Did everyone who had red hair have the feat? No. Instead, if you took the feat, you were assumed to have red hair already. If you took the feat after first level it was assumed that your hair somehow turned red when your powers manifested, not that you couldn't take it at all.
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Good example Doomed Hero. Another good one is the Powerful Wings feat. Prereqs listed are fly speed and +8 attack bonus. But it can reasonably (and should be) banned from being taken if you don't actually have wings. After all, how can it grant you two wing attacks if you don't have any? The feat says nothing bout giving you wings. Just that your wings already are larger then normal for your race.
Good example Doomed Hero. Another good one is the Powerful Wings feat. Prereqs listed are fly speed and +8 attack bonus. But it can reasonably (and should be) banned from being taken if you don't actually have wings. After all, how can it grant you two wing attacks if you don't have any? The feat says nothing bout giving you wings. Just that your wings already are larger then normal for your race.
It's more that you can take it and thus obtain two wing attacks that then you cannot perform as you don't have wings.
Here's a handy litmus test-
Does the physical feature an ability requires have its own mechanical benefit?
If yes, a character cannot be assumed to have the feature unless they also have the corresponding benefit.
If no, then it doesn't matter. The feature is purely descriptive and the feat can be assumed to grant that feature.
An example of this: In the Ravenloft campaign setting there was a Red Haired feat. It granted some minor supernatural abilities related to the lore of the setting. Did everyone who had red hair have the feat? No. Instead, if you took the feat, you were assumed to have red hair already. If you took the feat after first level it was assumed that your hair somehow turned red when your powers manifested, not that you couldn't take it at all.
One problem: For a kobold who does not have the Tail Terror feat, his tail is a cosmetic feature that provides no mechanical benefit -- so that case actually is a perfect parallel to the Red Haired feat.
Interesting observations, but I'm sorry. I don't see any problem. Could you elaborate?One problem: For a kobold who does not have the Tail Terror feat, his tail is a cosmetic feature that provides no mechanical benefit -- so that case actually is a perfect parallel to the Red Haired feat.Here's a handy litmus test-
Does the physical feature an ability requires have its own mechanical benefit?
If yes, a character cannot be assumed to have the feature unless they also have the corresponding benefit.
If no, then it doesn't matter. The feature is purely descriptive and the feat can be assumed to grant that feature.
An example of this: In the Ravenloft campaign setting there was a Red Haired feat. It granted some minor supernatural abilities related to the lore of the setting. Did everyone who had red hair have the feat? No. Instead, if you took the feat, you were assumed to have red hair already. If you took the feat after first level it was assumed that your hair somehow turned red when your powers manifested, not that you couldn't take it at all.
I think that the difference here is that the red hair is less a requirement of having those supernatural abilities than the red hair is a result of having them.
The tail, however, is not a result of having a tail attack. It is required to have the tail attack.
Good example Doomed Hero. Another good one is the Powerful Wings feat. Prereqs listed are fly speed and +8 attack bonus. But it can reasonably (and should be) banned from being taken if you don't actually have wings. After all, how can it grant you two wing attacks if you don't have any? The feat says nothing bout giving you wings. Just that your wings already are larger then normal for your race.It's more that you can take it and thus obtain two wing attacks that then you cannot perform as you don't have wings.
If that is true then you should be able to make wing attacks if you got wings through a polymorph spell or maybe through Wings of Flying. That's kind of neat.
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Scott, first off, thank you for the second post you did about the question in my separate post.
But about that first one...
My point in many of these discussions (even when Racial Heritage isn't the main feat being used, such as the thread about the Thunder and Fang feat) is that the descriptive section of the feat shouldn't be completely ignored or skipped when evaluating the rules text below. "Other forms" doesn't mean "One human being in birth form." It eludes to the fact that the Kitsune (who the feat was made for) already has another form other than the one, and that he has the ability already to shift into another form (human).
This isn't the case with the human taking the feat through Racial Heritage. I maintain that he can still take the feat, but will gain no benefit from it until such time that he gains a secondary form other than his birth form.
Thank you again for the other post about how to get the feat to work if it didn't provide from the get go.
My point in many of these discussions (even when Racial Heritage isn't the main feat being used, such as the thread about the Thunder and Fang feat) is that the descriptive section of the feat shouldn't be completely ignored or skipped when evaluating the rules text below.
I think that this is where the main rift in this entire argument lies.
Seems like what the entire thread distills down to is "is the desctiptive text for abilities and feats to be considered fluff or rules?"
Maybe we should make a FAQ about it.
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My point in many of these discussions (even when Racial Heritage isn't the main feat being used, such as the thread about the Thunder and Fang feat) is that the descriptive section of the feat shouldn't be completely ignored or skipped when evaluating the rules text below. "Other forms" doesn't mean "One human being in birth form." It eludes to the fact that the Kitsune (who the feat was made for) already has another form other than the one, and that he has the ability already to shift into another form (human).
For what it's worth, I still see it functioning completely fine for a Human with the descriptive text. Being that the Feat actually grants a new few, "Other Forms" is simply used to distinguish between the Fox one and any and everything else. That number could be anything between 1 and infinite. A human with no shapeshifting ability at all, (no items, no Druid levels, etc. . .) that takes this feat now has two different forms. Humanoid and Fox.
In other words, just because someone sees it as a legal combo doesn't mean they are not reading or outright ignoring the fluff, it's just not really an issue at all. It's not that we are not getting hung up upon it, but rather there isn't any contradiction to get hung up on.
Lets look at it in a different way. In Ultimate Equipment, there is a pretty amazing set of gloves, the Deliquenscent Gloves.
Among other things, any weapon you wield gains the Corrosive special quality. Now, by your reading, a character that only had one weapon, (and I mean literally, only owned one weapon), simply couldn't use these gloves. But, as soon as they went out and purchased another weapon, like a 0gp staff that they will never, every use, suddenly the gloves work. That just doesn't seem right.
Good example Doomed Hero. Another good one is the Powerful Wings feat. Prereqs listed are fly speed and +8 attack bonus. But it can reasonably (and should be) banned from being taken if you don't actually have wings. After all, how can it grant you two wing attacks if you don't have any? The feat says nothing bout giving you wings. Just that your wings already are larger then normal for your race.
Wings have a mechanical benefit (the fly speed, which is the actual prereq). Therefor the prerequisites aren't met and the feat can't be taken.
If you can figure out some convoluted way to get a fly speed without wings, and take Powerful Wings as a feat, i'd probably try to figure out a way to work with you on that. Seems like a pretty extreme corner case though.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Seems like what the entire thread distills down to is "is the desctiptive text for abilities and feats to be considered fluff or rules?"
Maybe we should make a FAQ about it.
That is the main issues here I'd also agree. From history, Paizo has had a track record of using the fluff and other things to adjudicate. So going against using that is often prone to be on the wrong side of an answered FAQ.
Here's a handy litmus test-
Does the physical feature an ability requires have its own mechanical benefit?
If yes, a character cannot be assumed to have the feature unless they also have the corresponding benefit.
If no, then it doesn't matter. The feature is purely descriptive and the feat can be assumed to grant that feature.
An example of this: In the Ravenloft campaign setting there was a Red Haired feat. It granted some minor supernatural abilities related to the lore of the setting. Did everyone who had red hair have the feat? No. Instead, if you took the feat, you were assumed to have red hair already. If you took the feat after first level it was assumed that your hair somehow turned red when your powers manifested, not that you couldn't take it at all.
One problem: For a kobold who does not have the Tail Terror feat, his tail is a cosmetic feature that provides no mechanical benefit -- so that case actually is a perfect parallel to the Red Haired feat.
This is exactly why the tail terror ruling is a bad one. It is demonstrably arbitrary in its restriction. There's no justifiable reason not to allow it.
I'm hoping the developers will eventually realize the error. Until then, I'm house ruling it.
Basically, if Racial Heritage doesn't allow you to emulate the features of the race you're descended from, then what is it even for?
It eludes to the fact that ...
The word you're looking for is "alludes"
If you can figure out some convoluted way to get a fly speed without wings
It's not that convoluted, you can do it with the Fire/Air/Aether Kineticist, Wings of Air on a Sylph or in general any kind of Supernatural flight at will.