What happens if a paladin is forced out of being lawful but remanded good?
Right there under Ex-paladins.
A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and class features (including the service of the paladin's mount, but not weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies). She may not progress any further in levels as a paladin. She regains her abilities and advancement potential if she atones for her violations (see atonement), as appropriate.
not a evil act but being forced to do something chaotic to save the group he is in.
She looses all paladon spells and class features.
even if its not an evil action?
yes, paladins must be lawful good all the time or lose their powers, since she did the chaotic thing for a good reason there is a chance at redemption
Yes, even if it's not an evil action. They are all separate conditions that can cause you to lose paladinhood.
You can commit an evil action and even if, in and of itself, it won't be sufficient to alter your alignment it will still cause you to fall.
If you violate your code of conduct, such as a Paladin of Torag showing mercy to an unrepentant enemy of his people, it is neither evil or enough to change your alignment but will cause you to fall.
Edit: A single chaotic act that does not breach your code of conduct should probably not cause you to fall. It would be unusual for a single act to change your alignment, and you are not expressly forbidden from committing a chaotic act.
How does one redeem himself?
(The paladin is male please use the male pronouns.)
Committing a chaotic act in general doesn't violate any of those restrictions, but specific details of the act might.
Yes. I can't even think of a single act chaotic enough to cause a fall. Single evil acts are a much larger problem as detailed above.
How does one redeem himself?
(The paladin is male please use the male pronouns.)
that is all in the role play and your specific dm
The atonement spell is usually required.
Being turned into another race and that the race itself cannot be any lawful alignment.(its a custom race that the GM put into the game)
Really? You can't think of a single chaotic act which violates the Paladin's strict Code of Conduct? I can think of many.Yes. I can't even think of a single act chaotic enough to cause a fall. Single evil acts are a much larger problem as detailed above.
Committing a chaotic act in general doesn't violate any of those restrictions, but specific details of the act might.
I can think of many which violate the code of conduct, but I cannot think of many that would cause an alignment change. And the OP refers to alignment change rather than code violation.
The atonement spell is usually required.
I've have been in games where the paladin seeking atonement had to do something to earn it
My GM/DM conciters any kind of race change (recantation or not) to be a serious chaotic action enough to make your alignment change by one step and the D100 roll made me his custom non-lawful race.
the physicality of the race makes their minds to warp and become chaotic and unable to follow leadership.
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yes, paladins must be lawful good all the time or lose their powers, since she did the chaotic thing for a good reason there is a chance at redemption
A single act does not induce alignment change, no matter how heinous or extreme. Alignment only changes as a result of consistent behaviors, not aberrations or unusual/extenuating circumstances.
My GM/DM conciters any kind of race change (recantation or not) to be a serious chaotic action enough to make your alignment change by one step and the D100 roll made me his custom non-lawful race.
Your DM is a serious putz.
yes, paladins must be lawful good all the time or lose their powers, since she did the chaotic thing for a good reason there is a chance at redemptionA single act does not induce alignment change, no matter how heinous or extreme. Alignment only changes as a result of consistent behaviors, not aberrations or unusual/extenuating circumstances.
This.
Paladins are allowed to neutral things, they are even allowed to do chaotic things. They are NOT allowed to do EVIL things regardless of the justification.
Paladins can not do Evil. They can not have an alignment of anything but Lawful Good.
It takes more then a few simple chaotic or neutral actions to actually CHANGE your alignment, and that's the limitation with Chaotic.
Evil is called right out 'willingly commiting an evil act'. There is no such clause for Chaos.
Forced alignment changes?? Kinda lame in my opinion, but yeah, if the home rules say you have no choice to be Chaotic... then you'll lose your paladinship when you lose your alignment.
The only way to beat a homerule though... is with ANOTHER Homerule. Talk with the DM to try find away around the total character assassination.
Sounds like the DM wanted to stop you from being a paladin by forcing a change to make you lose the paladin status. Kinda garbage.
Your DM is trash. Find a new one.
This is comparable to the "Paladin gets possessed, does he fall?" situation. No, he doesn't fall. His mind remains intact for whatever reason your DM is forcing some "chaotic" race change on him.
Atonement shouldn't even be needed but it wouldn't hurt to seek it. If the DM won't even allow that much, then see my first comment.
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So let me get this straight...
Your Paladin character died, and you guys had a Druid perform the Reincarnate spell on the Paladin, correct?
And you rolled a 100 for the reincarnation result? Which left it to the GM's choice to determine what you come back as? And he personally decided to make you into a race that requires you to be Non-Lawful? On top of that, your GM pulls this "Willingly changing your race (which, by the way, is not really a choice given from the Reincarnate spell, it just happens) is a strong Chaotic act," garbage, which isn't even a real rule? Yeah, no. Your GM screwed you, hardcore.
He pulled some stupid houserule that has zero grounds for application, both in an actual game, and in a home game. (A race that's so chaotic they can never be a Lawful alignment? By that logic then, there's no such thing as Good drow, since they're all a bunch of thieving double-crossers by the book, and those kinds of people are down-right Evil.) He also double-screwed you by choosing your race to this very one. Quite frankly, your GM just absolutely hates you, Paladins, Monks, and anything that has a daily routine.
I'd just walk from the GM and become one from that point forward, so I don't have other players deal with the same bulls!@# that I had to deal with. Quite frankly, I'd rather the GM just said "Rocks Fall, You Die," it'd make more sense than...well, "this."
There is one last hope before abandoning this GM for another - talk with the GM and see if you can turn this into a mini-adventure about your character getting his paladin-hood back, despite being a race that cannot be LG. A paladin specific quest where your character's God literally fixes you and brings you back into the fold. And the God does this because of your character's strong devotion to him. Or a quest to reincarnate again and become a race that can be LG, then go for standard atonement. Or a quest that brings you back to your original race. Or SOMETHING that allows you to be a paladin. As a mini quest, this should, at most, take two sessions. No more.
If your GM is unwilling to give you a mini side quest to gain your paladinhood back (or unwilling to do anything to get your paladin back), then walk from the game or do not let this individual GM at your group anymore.
"The physicality of the race makes their minds to warp and become chaotic and unable to follow leadership."
As far as I am aware, unless your DM is playing with some very weird custom rules, only outsiders are bound to their alignment, and even that can change in extreme cases (i.e. fallen angels). Pulling that on a paladin who is being reincarnated sounds like major BS. Did your character at least get a save to avoid this?
Normally, the atonement spell can be used to regain paladin mojo, but I think in many cases a mini-quest or another show of repentence is much more appropriate. However, what the heck does your character have to atone for?
If you are okay with this, either go for a short quest or ask if there are any paladin variants your DM - since s/he is already quite deeply into houseruling - can think of. If neither, play a new character or a different campaign.
"My GM/DM conciters any kind of race change (recantation or not) to be a serious chaotic action"
I am pretty sure something you neither play an active part into nor have control over cannot be considered an action you have taken. Seriously, stuff like this is why a lot of players hate the entire alignment system with a passion.
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I am pretty sure something you neither play an active part into nor have control over cannot be considered an action you have taken. Seriously, stuff like this is why a lot of players hate the entire alignment system with a passion.
BadGM=/=bad system
Alignment works as long as you don't wield it like a sledgehammer.
I know, the problem is a lot of people do and this causes a lot of people to dislike the system altogether. I guess I did not express myself clearly, my bad.
I suppose this comes to house rules vs. what I would consider fairness. The GM is allowed to make house rules, although I believe that house rules require unanimous consent of the players.
BUT to say that being the recipient of a Reincarnate spell is a chaotic act is just plain wrong. And to force a paladin to be reincarnated as a creature physically incapable of being lawful is bad form.
With this spell, you bring back a dead creature in another body, provided that its death occurred no more than 1 week before the casting of the spell and the subject's soul is free and willing to return. If the subject's soul is not willing to return, the spell does not work; therefore, a subject that wants to return receives no saving throw.I would say that the paladin, seeing that his new body will cause him to fall, refuses to be reincarnated and the spell fails. Try again tomorrow.
Plus 1 to this!
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Walk from the game, never look back. Suggest the other players do the same.
That DM has no business running a game if he's out to screw the players by making up his own rules.
As far as actual paladin code stuff,
Additionally, a paladin's code requires thatshe respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
Emphasis mine. If ever there is a point where a paladin cannot agree with the laws of the land (because they are evil, trade slaves, or worship a demon or something) he can choose not to respect their laws with no fear of losing his powers.
I'm sorry this happened to you.
Most DMs I play with (and players I DM for) simply house rule out the Lawful part of the alignment code, so you can play a paladin who is "any good" which opens up more character options.
Most DMs I play with (and players I DM for) simply house rule out the Lawful part of the alignment code, so you can play a paladin who is "any good" which opens up more character options.
Most DMs I play with (and players I DM for) simply house rule out the Lawful part of the alignment code, so you can play a paladin who is "any good" which opens up more character options.
This sounds like a good idea, particularly as there are books giving you the codes for all faiths, so you have a place to start.
Walk from the game, never look back. Suggest the other players do the same.
That DM has no business running a game if he's out to screw the players by making up his own rules.
As far as actual paladin code stuff,
Additionally, a paladin's code requires thatshe respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.Emphasis mine. If ever there is a point where a paladin cannot agree with the laws of the land (because they are evil, trade slaves, or worship a demon or something) he can choose not to respect their laws with no fear of losing his powers.
I'm sorry this happened to you.
Most DMs I play with (and players I DM for) simply house rule out the Lawful part of the alignment code, so you can play a paladin who is "any good" which opens up more character options.
I have always house ruled that paladins can be from any alignment as it makes sense that all gods/goddesses would want "holy/unholy warriors" that uphold that deity's tenets.
My GM/DM conciters any kind of race change (recantation or not) to be a serious chaotic action enough to make your alignment change by one step and the D100 roll made me his custom non-lawful race.
On this one I'll have to disagree with your GM. At this point you and he will need a serious discussion because as others have mentioned this isn't even the traditional GM method of hosing over a paladin but outright telling you to drop the class.
I know race rarely changes in games, but it's hard for me to think of that as inherently chaotic. I wonder how druids are treated..
"You were Neutral Good but turned into a bear? Oh, sorry, you're Chaotic Good now, and since you're not Neutral, you lose your druid powers. Please burn down three orphanages to shift to Chaotic Neutral and regain your druid powers, since you'll just keep losing them if you try to stay Neutral Good."
?
Well , i would say paladins must follow their code and they must remain LG , with that said , i think your GM made the race , talk to him about it , if said race cant be any means be L , then refuse the ress and wait for another chance.
Im all for "punishing" a player who takes actions that break the code or that go against the LG if the player does those things himself , he must be the one who makes the choice to take the actions that lead to this. Action and consequence , in a paladin case is always good to make sure the player understands them both and that you warn him beforehand.
Forcing things that you cant control to change your PC like this and making you lose your powers is just crazy to me.
Well , i would say paladins must follow their code and they must remain LG , with that said , i think your GM made the race , talk to him about it , if said race cant be any means be L , then refuse the ress and wait for another chance.
Im all for "punishing" a player who takes actions that break the code or that go against the LG if the player does those things himself , he must be the one who makes the choice to take the actions that lead to this. Action and consequence , in a paladin case is always good to make sure the player understands them both and that you warn him beforehand.
Forcing things that you cant control to change your PC like this and making you lose your powers is just crazy to me.
You can't refuse based upon what your reincarnated body would be. You would get the option to accept based upon the terms of the revival (i.e. if it's a Reincarnate, a Resurrection, etc)., but that's it.
Fudging the rules on one side is just as bad as fudging rules on the other side. GMs shouldn't have to deal with players who are cheaters and come up with false bonuses or debuffs, and players shouldn't have to deal with GMs who come up with random, unprecedented rules just to screw their players overs for no understandable reason other than their hate for said players, or the kinds of characters they play.