Non-book Spellbooks


Rules Questions

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I'm not finding any rulings one way or the other.

Does a spellbook need to actually be a book, or can it be say written along a quarterstaff, sword blade or other object? If so, how much room would be available do you think?

I'm trying to build an Osirion wizard for the Mummy's Mask adventure path and was thinking having her staff covered with hieroglyphics that functioned as a spellbook would be a unique idea.

Damage to the staff aside, is this even an idea I should bring up to the GM?


I remember an article in Dragon magazine some years ago that featured some unusual spell books, such as metal plates connected by wire and tattooed skin finished as leather pages. It was pretty cool.

Consider the function of a spellbook in the game, and the liability that comes with owning/relying on a spellbook, and its inherent value, and so long as it keeps these qualities, as a GM I would see no problem with it, and actually enjoy the creative addition to the game.


I once described a gnoll wizard as using a quipu for his spellbook. Quipus used a complicated series of knots and were used by the Incas to record trade transactions and numerals. I just figured it was only a step away from using one as a form of spellbook.

Quipu


I thought I remember some rules about this in one of the books, but I can't find it, so maybe it was a past edition.

Anyways, here's some 3PP material that covers it a bit: variant spellbooks


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Owly; I too remember the "at one point in the past" stuff (2ed Ed maybe), but Pathfinder is silent on the subject.

DMCal; I've seen that with other players, normally in places like Dark Sun. They are really cool and the look on the DM's face the first time these show up. Priceless.

bookrat; Thank you, I found those rules too, but they are all just different types of books/scrolls. Or that's what it looks like to me, large flat object for writing on.


Given the limited surface area of a staff or similar surface, perhaps each hieroglyph is a three-dimensional bas-relief. The size of the hieroglyph in surface area is its spell level in square inches. Assuming a 6' quarterstaff one inch in diameter, that results in ~450 - 460 square inches of surface area. While sizeable, 450 "pages" (square inches) of spell capacity gets filled in a hurry by the middle level range.

You're probably going to want to use a blessed spellstaff (variant of the blessed book) as soon as possible, so having such as your Arcane Bond goes a long way indeed!

Shadow Lodge

I would imagine that if your staff was masterworked and constructed (with regard to Pricing) as though it were a magical item with Multiple Different Abilities, then your DM would probably allow it. If I were your DM I would require you to pay for a masterworked Staff (or craft with Craft weapon one incurring normal costs) + Cost of Spellbook (or cost to craft spellbook using craft wood carving) at what ever size x 1.5.

This way there will be no question as to whether or not you can use the Staff as a weapon in combat, and you've invested a not unreasonable amount of your build either in the form of craft ranks for 2 skills + cash, or in the form of cash + more cash.

Additionally, handling it this way easily paves the way for you to add weapon enhancements down the road.

Grand Lodge

I would allow it, though the size/space limitation of the medium used would make it more like a traveling spellbook than a "normal" or "regular" one.


bookrat wrote:

I thought I remember some rules about this in one of the books, but I can't find it, so maybe it was a past edition.

Anyways, here's some 3PP material that covers it a bit: variant spellbooks

3.5 had some rules on this and variant potions and such. Thing complete Arcane or PH 2


I realize it doesn't quite translate over, but the Disks of Mishakal from Dragonlance could be used as a template for an alternate spellbook. Yes, the disks were used to bring knowledge of true clerics back into the world, but I can easily envision something similar holding lost magical secrets of forgotten wizards (not named Fistandantilus).

Game mechanics-wise, I would rule that a staff or sword could only contain a small number of spells, as there just isn't that much room to write or carve legibly on them. I would also rule that the item must be at least masterwork, if not magical, due to the high quality of materials necessary to contain spells. Otherwise, every large tree branch could become an impromptu club-of-spellbook-substitution. JMHO, of course. ;)


Dak'kon in Planescape Torment has a spellbook/religious text/philosophical textbook that is a ridiculously complex series of metal disks in a sort of blacksmith's puzzle. If i remember right you had to effectively use disable device to unlock new portions of the spellbook and make knowledge religion/planes checks to understand the context and take away meaning from the writings in addition to just being a spell caster.

EDIT: went and looked it up, "the Unbroken Circle of Zerthimon, a religious text inscribed on a series of interlocking stone plates that follows the life of Zerthimon. Dak'kon is only able to read a portion of the text, though it is possible for the Nameless One to unlock the remaining texts if his Wisdom statistic is high enough" Though i think it also tuaght a few spells in the game.

In any event, its a cool concept for a spellbook that is far more durable and difficult to access since it has to be finely manipulated and is written in Steganographic form.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Phoenix M wrote:

I'm not finding any rulings one way or the other.

Does a spellbook need to actually be a book, or can it be say written along a quarterstaff, sword blade or other object? If so, how much room would be available do you think?

I'm trying to build an Osirion wizard for the Mummy's Mask adventure path and was thinking having her staff covered with hieroglyphics that functioned as a spellbook would be a unique idea.

Damage to the staff aside, is this even an idea I should bring up to the GM?

Spells take up pages, which means surface area. Assume your standard spellbook uses 8.5x11 inch pages for convenience and has 100 pages.

That's 8.5x11x100 or 9,350 square inches. Each spell takes up 93.5xlevel square inches..(minimum of 93.5 for cantrips) I don't think you're going to have that much writing area on a staff or sword.


A fixed price enchantment that allows the wielder of an item to change the text visiable on an item could allow it to function as a spell book. Completely a houserule but it would be flavourful.


Maybe ancient Osirion's hieroglyphics are a more efficient way to write spells than modern script.

Liberty's Edge

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In the early playtests for Dungeons & Dragons Fifth Edition, the mage wizard had a sidebar about his spellbook that said "It doesn't have to be a book, per se. It could be a series of glass disks etched with arcane runes, it can be Braille-like writing on the back of a shield, it could be a set of adamantine sheets you tote around, it could be a massive scroll with what looks like musical notation, it can even be tattoos you put on the rogue's back. Just remember that you can always be separated from your spellbook (the DM is free to interpret what happens to the unfortunate rogue in that last example.)"

Then it became "Nope, the class feature is called 'Wizard Spellbook,' it has to be a book, lolz good game sris."

I see no reason why the former can't be a thing in Pathfinder (with no mechanical benefit/penalty.)


LazarX wrote:
Phoenix M wrote:

I'm not finding any rulings one way or the other.

Does a spellbook need to actually be a book, or can it be say written along a quarterstaff, sword blade or other object? If so, how much room would be available do you think?

I'm trying to build an Osirion wizard for the Mummy's Mask adventure path and was thinking having her staff covered with hieroglyphics that functioned as a spellbook would be a unique idea.

Damage to the staff aside, is this even an idea I should bring up to the GM?

Spells take up pages, which means surface area. Assume your standard spellbook uses 8.5x11 inch pages for convenience and has 100 pages.

That's 8.5x11x100 or 9,350 square inches. Each spell takes up 93.5xlevel square inches..(minimum of 93.5 for cantrips) I don't think you're going to have that much writing area on a staff or sword.

Only if you assume a smooth surface. Have detailed carvings through out and write on the inside and sides of the carvings and increase your surface area by a massive amount. :)

But I do like this approach. It gives a decent idea on how they should work. Isn't congruent with non-paper spellbooks, though, like ones made from clay tablets or from wooden planks linked together, which I've seen *somewhere* as ideas for alternate spellbooks. Just no idea where.


I really like this idea, it's a huge staple in fantasy, that the wizard needs his staff to to magic, in some way. Personally I like the idea of the pacific spell lighting up on the staff, runes glowing and such when it's cast. I could see a wizard with fast study and the quick preparation thing, so he can prep a single spell in 30sec (5 rounds) working this way. The caster muttering and chanting, waving the staff as the party keeps the enemy from him so he can cast <insert critical spell here>.


The Esoteric Magus can tattoo three spells on themselves. But that is a special class ability.


LazarX wrote:
Phoenix M wrote:

I'm not finding any rulings one way or the other.

Does a spellbook need to actually be a book, or can it be say written along a quarterstaff, sword blade or other object? If so, how much room would be available do you think?

I'm trying to build an Osirion wizard for the Mummy's Mask adventure path and was thinking having her staff covered with hieroglyphics that functioned as a spellbook would be a unique idea.

Damage to the staff aside, is this even an idea I should bring up to the GM?

Spells take up pages, which means surface area. Assume your standard spellbook uses 8.5x11 inch pages for convenience and has 100 pages.

That's 8.5x11x100 or 9,350 square inches. Each spell takes up 93.5xlevel square inches..(minimum of 93.5 for cantrips) I don't think you're going to have that much writing area on a staff or sword.

Don't cantrips count as half level, so 46.75in^2?


Phoenix M wrote:
Does a spellbook need to actually be a book, or can it be say written along a quarterstaff, sword blade or other object? If so, how much room would be available do you think?

Yes, rules at written it needs to be a spellbook. A spell takes up as many pages as its level. A spellbook has 100 pages. Both of these pieces of information are in the rules. RAW, you can't have any special items as spellbooks because of these rules, unless the item specifies how many pages/spell levels it can hold.

PRD wrote:

Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook

Once a wizard understands a new spell, he can record it into his spellbook.

Time: The process takes 1 hour per spell level. Cantrips (0 levels spells) take 30 minutes to record.

Space in the Spellbook: A spell takes up one page of the spellbook per spell level. Even a 0-level spell (cantrip) takes one page. A spellbook has 100 pages.

Materials and Costs: The cost for writing a new spell into a spellbook depends on the level of the spell, as noted on Table: Spell Level and Writing Costs. Note that a wizard does not have to pay these costs in time or gold for spells he gains for free at each new level.


The idea of using your staff as a travel spellbook is awesome.

I guess that's what's staves are supposed to represent, but you can't get anywhere close to starting with a feel like that for a low level (new) character,

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Blindmage wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Phoenix M wrote:

I'm not finding any rulings one way or the other.

Does a spellbook need to actually be a book, or can it be say written along a quarterstaff, sword blade or other object? If so, how much room would be available do you think?

I'm trying to build an Osirion wizard for the Mummy's Mask adventure path and was thinking having her staff covered with hieroglyphics that functioned as a spellbook would be a unique idea.

Damage to the staff aside, is this even an idea I should bring up to the GM?

Spells take up pages, which means surface area. Assume your standard spellbook uses 8.5x11 inch pages for convenience and has 100 pages.

That's 8.5x11x100 or 9,350 square inches. Each spell takes up 93.5xlevel square inches..(minimum of 93.5 for cantrips) I don't think you're going to have that much writing area on a staff or sword.

Don't cantrips count as half level, so 46.75in^2?

They take up the minimum space of one page.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
el cuervo wrote:
Yes, rules at written it needs to be a spellbook. A spell takes up as many pages as its level. A spellbook has 100 pages. Both of these pieces of information are in the rules. RAW, you can't have any special items as spellbooks because of these rules, unless the item specifies how many pages/spell levels it can hold.

Raw does not forbid non-standard spellbooks, but spells will still take up as much writing space whether you're using parchment or giant leaves as your surface and have the same costs involved. So you can have whatever material you want subject to GM approval and extra costs involved. (PFS restrictions not withstanding)

It can not cost less than standard though for both the item and scribing spells into it, but it surely can cost more.


While not 'RAW' per se, all that RAW really stipulates is a cost and a 'spellbook' upon which the wizard's spells are stored. Go with what's fun for your group, IMO. Loving Blindmage's take on it.


LazarX wrote:
el cuervo wrote:
Yes, rules at written it needs to be a spellbook. A spell takes up as many pages as its level. A spellbook has 100 pages. Both of these pieces of information are in the rules. RAW, you can't have any special items as spellbooks because of these rules, unless the item specifies how many pages/spell levels it can hold.

Raw does not forbid non-standard spellbooks, but spells will still take up as much writing space whether you're using parchment or giant leaves as your surface and have the same costs involved. So you can have whatever material you want subject to GM approval and extra costs involved. (PFS restrictions not withstanding)

It can not cost less than standard though for both the item and scribing spells into it, but it surely can cost more.

The strictest interpretation of the rules requires that you have a spellbook. It could be some sort of flavorful item I guess but it is always a spellbook. For example, I would allow a spellbook made of bound leaves, or a necromancer might have a spellbook with vellum pages made of human skin, but I wouldn't allow a staff with spells inscribed on it and treated as a spellbook. It still has to be in the form of a book, or else it's not a spellbook.

Turin the Mad wrote:
While not 'RAW' per se, all that RAW really stipulates is a cost and a 'spellbook' upon which the wizard's spells are stored. Go with what's fun for your group, IMO. Loving Blindmage's take on it.

RAW requires that spellbooks have 100 pages, also. Limiting you pretty much to books of 100 pages. Book can be pretty loosely defined, but RAW it's still gotta be a book.


LazarX wrote:
el cuervo wrote:
Yes, rules at written it needs to be a spellbook. A spell takes up as many pages as its level. A spellbook has 100 pages. Both of these pieces of information are in the rules. RAW, you can't have any special items as spellbooks because of these rules, unless the item specifies how many pages/spell levels it can hold.

Raw does not forbid non-standard spellbooks, but spells will still take up as much writing space whether you're using parchment or giant leaves as your surface and have the same costs involved. So you can have whatever material you want subject to GM approval and extra costs involved. (PFS restrictions not withstanding)

It can not cost less than standard though for both the item and scribing spells into it, but it surely can cost more.

The only issue with that is that "page" is not a defined term in size. You used 8.5x11 inches earlier. Which is a fine judgement call. There is a fair argument for it to actually be A4 paper which is 8.27 × 11.69 inches. I could also easily claim that my book is 3 by 5 inches. just as a reference a 6' staff with a 2" diameter has about 450 sq inches of surface if it is smooth. You could easily triple that with scalloping.

I think the poster up thread had is best when they said to just make sure you keep in mind the liability of a spell book and treat the new object as though it still had that liability. Whatever object you choose let it hold 100 spell levels of spells.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
el cuervo wrote:
LazarX wrote:
el cuervo wrote:
Yes, rules at written it needs to be a spellbook. A spell takes up as many pages as its level. A spellbook has 100 pages. Both of these pieces of information are in the rules. RAW, you can't have any special items as spellbooks because of these rules, unless the item specifies how many pages/spell levels it can hold.

Raw does not forbid non-standard spellbooks, but spells will still take up as much writing space whether you're using parchment or giant leaves as your surface and have the same costs involved. So you can have whatever material you want subject to GM approval and extra costs involved. (PFS restrictions not withstanding)

It can not cost less than standard though for both the item and scribing spells into it, but it surely can cost more.

The strictest interpretation of the rules requires that you have a spellbook. It could be some sort of flavorful item I guess but it is always a spellbook. For example, I would allow a spellbook made of bound leaves, or a necromancer might have a spellbook with vellum pages made of human skin, but I wouldn't allow a staff with spells inscribed on it and treated as a spellbook. It still has to be in the form of a book, or else it's not a spellbook.

Turin the Mad wrote:
While not 'RAW' per se, all that RAW really stipulates is a cost and a 'spellbook' upon which the wizard's spells are stored. Go with what's fun for your group, IMO. Loving Blindmage's take on it.
RAW requires that spellbooks have 100 pages, also. Limiting you pretty much to books of 100 pages. Book can be pretty loosely defined, but RAW it's still gotta be a book.

Yes but it can be a book of parchment, vellum, specially cured leaves, mithral plates, etc. Some materials however are going to require special scribing implements which will be costly and most likely will have to be self made.


el cuervo wrote:
LazarX wrote:
el cuervo wrote:
Yes, rules at written it needs to be a spellbook. A spell takes up as many pages as its level. A spellbook has 100 pages. Both of these pieces of information are in the rules. RAW, you can't have any special items as spellbooks because of these rules, unless the item specifies how many pages/spell levels it can hold.

Raw does not forbid non-standard spellbooks, but spells will still take up as much writing space whether you're using parchment or giant leaves as your surface and have the same costs involved. So you can have whatever material you want subject to GM approval and extra costs involved. (PFS restrictions not withstanding)

It can not cost less than standard though for both the item and scribing spells into it, but it surely can cost more.

The strictest interpretation of the rules requires that you have a spellbook. It could be some sort of flavorful item I guess but it is always a spellbook. For example, I would allow a spellbook made of bound leaves, or a necromancer might have a spellbook with vellum pages made of human skin, but I wouldn't allow a staff with spells inscribed on it and treated as a spellbook. It still has to be in the form of a book, or else it's not a spellbook.

Turin the Mad wrote:
While not 'RAW' per se, all that RAW really stipulates is a cost and a 'spellbook' upon which the wizard's spells are stored. Go with what's fun for your group, IMO. Loving Blindmage's take on it.
RAW requires that spellbooks have 100 pages, also. Limiting you pretty much to books of 100 pages. Book can be pretty loosely defined, but RAW it's still gotta be a book.

The "standard CRB spellbook" has 100 pages. Go ahead and nip a book of decent-ish size at any book store. Nearly all of them exceed 100 pages. Traveling spellbooks are 50 pages IIRC. A blessed book is a magic spellbook of 1,000 pages that costs nothing to inscribe spells within.

All that really matters is that the Wizard has some object that fulfills that same exact purpose at the same or higher costs in time and gp. Does it substantially make a lick of difference in the mechanical function of the class and character if the 'spellbook' is a 'spellstaff'? No it doesn't. The staff is somewhat more durable but a whole lot easier to target/sunder/etc.


Turin the Mad wrote:

The "standard CRB spellbook" has 100 pages. Go ahead and nip a book of decent-ish size at any book store. Nearly all of them exceed 100 pages. Traveling spellbooks are 50 pages IIRC. A blessed book is a magic spellbook of 1,000 pages that costs nothing to inscribe spells within.

All that really matters is that the Wizard has some object that fulfills that same exact purpose at the same or higher costs in time and gp. Does it substantially make a lick of difference in the mechanical function of the class and character if the 'spellbook' is a 'spellstaff'? No it doesn't. The staff is somewhat more durable but a whole lot easier to target/sunder/etc.

I would tend to agree but we're discussing rules as written, as this is the rules forum. That wouldn't fly in PFS. Unless it's a special/wondrous item that acts like a spellbook, it has to be a standard 100 page spellbook. Once that book is full you need a second book.


This is the rules forum, but seeing as how the question is not for a PFS character, 'RAW' is less important to the OP methinks. ;)


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LazarX wrote:
Yes but it can be a book of parchment, vellum, specially cured leaves, mithral plates, etc. Some materials however are going to require special scribing implements which will be costly and most likely will have to be self made.

I don't disagree, but I do hold that it should be a bound book of some sort, and not a staff, or on the rogue's back, or some other thing, exceptions in the rules notwithstanding.

Turin the Mad wrote:
This is the rules forum, but seeing as how the question is not for a PFS character, 'RAW' is less important to the OP methinks. ;)

Not to sound like a jerk, but the rules questions forum is for discussing the rules as they are written. Anything else really should be discussed on another board.

EDIT: Even if the OP isn't asking for PFS, someone who is looking for information regarding this subject and IS concerned about PFS may look to this thread (and others) for answers. Hence, we discuss things in terms of RAW in this forum and take extra care not to discuss things that are not specifically RAW.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
el cuervo wrote:
Turin the Mad wrote:

The "standard CRB spellbook" has 100 pages. Go ahead and nip a book of decent-ish size at any book store. Nearly all of them exceed 100 pages. Traveling spellbooks are 50 pages IIRC. A blessed book is a magic spellbook of 1,000 pages that costs nothing to inscribe spells within.

All that really matters is that the Wizard has some object that fulfills that same exact purpose at the same or higher costs in time and gp. Does it substantially make a lick of difference in the mechanical function of the class and character if the 'spellbook' is a 'spellstaff'? No it doesn't. The staff is somewhat more durable but a whole lot easier to target/sunder/etc.

I would tend to agree but we're discussing rules as written, as this is the rules forum. That wouldn't fly in PFS. Unless it's a special/wondrous item that acts like a spellbook, it has to be a standard 100 page spellbook. Once that book is full you need a second book.

If it's PFS than the discussion is over. There is no customisation, no skinning allowed. Standard one hundred page book, and that's that.

But this question was not posed in the Society forum, but general rules. Nor did the OP's question mentioned PFS play at all. So as long as the OP isn't talking about PFS, we can continue yakking our heads off.


Ok. Based off of LazarX's calculation, I'm trying to come up with some creative ways to write a new spell book.

Let's say we have a staff. If we were to cut a 1/4 inch deep and wide section lengthwise on the staff, how tall would it have to be so if we wrote on each side of that trench (both sides, the bottom, and one section of top by writing on the area between trenches), how long would it have to be?

My calculations say just about 8' long. So one trench is equal to one page in a spell book.

How many trenches can we make? With a staff the diameter of two inches, that gives us a circumference of 6.28". At 4 pages an inch with circumference, you have 25 pages on an 8' staff. Yay!

Carry four of those around, and you're right at the same size as a normal spellbook.


Do you really have to care if there are actual rules for it? As long as the mechanics are the same (same cost, same limit of space for spells, etc.), if the GM is a little bit supporting of nice ideas, you can even use a mug of ale as your spell book.


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Astral Wanderer wrote:
Do you really have to care if there are actual rules for it? As long as the mechanics are the same (same cost, same limit of space for spells, etc.), if the GM is a little bit supporting of nice ideas, you can even use a mug of ale as your spell book.

As truly devoted a follower of Cayden Calien if there ever was one. "Hermmershibble, Imma preparing shpells *hic* ... "


Turin the Mad wrote:
Astral Wanderer wrote:
Do you really have to care if there are actual rules for it? As long as the mechanics are the same (same cost, same limit of space for spells, etc.), if the GM is a little bit supporting of nice ideas, you can even use a mug of ale as your spell book.
As truly devoted a follower of Cayden Calien if there ever was one. "Hermmershibble, Imma preparing shpells *hic* ... "

Given your name, that seems appropriately fitting.


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bookrat wrote:
Turin the Mad wrote:
Astral Wanderer wrote:
Do you really have to care if there are actual rules for it? As long as the mechanics are the same (same cost, same limit of space for spells, etc.), if the GM is a little bit supporting of nice ideas, you can even use a mug of ale as your spell book.
As truly devoted a follower of Cayden Calien if there ever was one. "Hermmershibble, Imma preparing shpells *hic* ... "
Given your name, that seems appropriately fitting.

stares bleary-eyed at the talking rodent. Don't *hic* .. erp ... don't go talkin' smack about my wishard buddy... *hic*

;)

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Turin the Mad wrote:

Given the limited surface area of a staff or similar surface, perhaps each hieroglyph is a three-dimensional bas-relief. The size of the hieroglyph in surface area is its spell level in square inches. Assuming a 6' quarterstaff one inch in diameter, that results in ~450 - 460 square inches of surface area. While sizeable, 450 "pages" (square inches) of spell capacity gets filled in a hurry by the middle level range.

A lot quicker than that. By my count at 93 inches each, that's room for 5 first level spells total... including cantrips if one is being generous.


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bookrat wrote:

Ok. Based off of LazarX's calculation, I'm trying to come up with some creative ways to write a new spell book.

Let's say we have a staff. If we were to cut a 1/4 inch deep and wide section lengthwise on the staff, how tall would it have to be so if we wrote on each side of that trench (both sides, the bottom, and one section of top by writing on the area between trenches), how long would it have to be?

My calculations say just about 8' long. So one trench is equal to one page in a spell book.

How many trenches can we make? With a staff the diameter of two inches, that gives us a circumference of 6.28". At 4 pages an inch with circumference, you have 25 pages on an 8' staff. Yay!

Carry four of those around, and you're right at the same size as a normal spellbook.

This design 3" in diameter and 6'8" long is the same surface area as 102 8.5"x11" spell book pages.

edit: click "view 3d" to really appreciate it.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
bookrat wrote:

Ok. Based off of LazarX's calculation, I'm trying to come up with some creative ways to write a new spell book.

Let's say we have a staff. If we were to cut a 1/4 inch deep and wide section lengthwise on the staff, how tall would it have to be so if we wrote on each side of that trench (both sides, the bottom, and one section of top by writing on the area between trenches), how long would it have to be?

My calculations say just about 8' long. So one trench is equal to one page in a spell book.

How many trenches can we make? With a staff the diameter of two inches, that gives us a circumference of 6.28". At 4 pages an inch with circumference, you have 25 pages on an 8' staff. Yay!

Carry four of those around, and you're right at the same size as a normal spellbook.

Have you tried carrying four full sized staves at once?


LazarX wrote:
bookrat wrote:

Ok. Based off of LazarX's calculation, I'm trying to come up with some creative ways to write a new spell book.

Let's say we have a staff. If we were to cut a 1/4 inch deep and wide section lengthwise on the staff, how tall would it have to be so if we wrote on each side of that trench (both sides, the bottom, and one section of top by writing on the area between trenches), how long would it have to be?

My calculations say just about 8' long. So one trench is equal to one page in a spell book.

How many trenches can we make? With a staff the diameter of two inches, that gives us a circumference of 6.28". At 4 pages an inch with circumference, you have 25 pages on an 8' staff. Yay!

Carry four of those around, and you're right at the same size as a normal spellbook.

Have you tried carrying four full sized staves at once?

An efficient quiver handles this easily.


LazarX wrote:
bookrat wrote:

Ok. Based off of LazarX's calculation, I'm trying to come up with some creative ways to write a new spell book.

Let's say we have a staff. If we were to cut a 1/4 inch deep and wide section lengthwise on the staff, how tall would it have to be so if we wrote on each side of that trench (both sides, the bottom, and one section of top by writing on the area between trenches), how long would it have to be?

My calculations say just about 8' long. So one trench is equal to one page in a spell book.

How many trenches can we make? With a staff the diameter of two inches, that gives us a circumference of 6.28". At 4 pages an inch with circumference, you have 25 pages on an 8' staff. Yay!

Carry four of those around, and you're right at the same size as a normal spellbook.

Have you tried carrying four full sized staves at once?

Surprisingly, it's not that difficult.


BigDTBone wrote:
bookrat wrote:

Ok. Based off of LazarX's calculation, I'm trying to come up with some creative ways to write a new spell book.

Let's say we have a staff. If we were to cut a 1/4 inch deep and wide section lengthwise on the staff, how tall would it have to be so if we wrote on each side of that trench (both sides, the bottom, and one section of top by writing on the area between trenches), how long would it have to be?

My calculations say just about 8' long. So one trench is equal to one page in a spell book.

How many trenches can we make? With a staff the diameter of two inches, that gives us a circumference of 6.28". At 4 pages an inch with circumference, you have 25 pages on an 8' staff. Yay!

Carry four of those around, and you're right at the same size as a normal spellbook.

This design 3" in diameter and 6'8" long is the same surface area as 102 8.5"x11" spell book pages.

edit: click "view 3d" to really appreciate it.

I like it, but I'd be afraid of how fragile each page would be. I was trying to come up with something that would be reasonable sturdy.


BigDTBone wrote:
This design 3" in diameter and 6'8" long is the same surface area as 102 8.5"x11" spell book pages.

Lovely, but how do you look at / write on anything but the outermost part of each slice? I assume this is still supposed to be sturdy wood and therefore you can't just turn the "pages."

P.S. Why 102 pages? Did you allocate for an Introduction and Table of Contents?

Dark Archive

If it was a whipwood staff, then it would function just fine.


You can just carve normal words/symbols around the staff in slight spirals with the standard medium quarterstaff having 100 pages of equivalent space. Then larger or smaller quarterstaffs would have proportionally differing numbers of pages. Odds are you could have a weapon enchantment, to make to similar to the Blessed Book.

Consider how hard most caster protect their spellbook. The extra copies and such. Now remember that they're actively wielding this one as a weapon (and odds are as a Bonded Item, too bad the crafting stuff for it is so delayed). There are way more risks of loosing it this way. But it adds an amazing amount of flavour.


Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
BigDTBone wrote:
This design 3" in diameter and 6'8" long is the same surface area as 102 8.5"x11" spell book pages.

Lovely, but how do you look at / write on anything but the outermost part of each slice? I assume this is still supposed to be sturdy wood and therefore you can't just turn the "pages."

P.S. Why 102 pages? Did you allocate for an Introduction and Table of Contents?

Amanuensis, a spell that copies spellbooks would be a good place to start. Naturally you would have to look at it very closely and study it carefully, you know, like you would a spell book.

Durability isn't an issue. Just make it masterwork quality or make it from iron instead of wood.

102 pages because that's how the math worked out and after I got it over 100 pages I wasn't interested in fine tuning it.


I thought this forum was for rules questions? I'm confused about the topic. Per the rules your spellbook has 100 pages and is a book. A staff is not a book. I'm just trying to say that the rules forum probably isn't the appropriate location for this discussion.


el cuervo wrote:
I thought this forum was for rules questions? I'm confused about the topic. Per the rules your spellbook has 100 pages and is a book. A staff is not a book. I'm just trying to say that the rules forum probably isn't the appropriate location for this discussion.

The rules question was already answered: can't be done. There are no rules for it.

Now we're extrapolating from the rules to come up with new designs.

The rules say there is one spell level per page (which we've defined as a standard 8.5 x 11 page), with a minimum of one page. Using those rules and extrapolation, how else can we come up with a spellbook that gives the OP what s/he wants?

Wo while I know that you don't like that some of us have extrapolated from the rules, as you've made abundantly clear over and over again, the OP still asked a question and some of us like to try to answer it and give him/her and their GM some options.

Also, I noticed that earlier you said a spellbook must have 100 pages; this is incorrect. Per the rules, some spellbooks have 50 or 70 pages. these are spellbooks you can purchase blank and write in your own spells. But the rules even have more! There are spellbooks classified as four times the size of a normal spellbook! So a spellbook can have any number of pages, per the rules.

Here's a fun thought! The rules don't say how big the pages are in the spellbook! LazarX's assumption of 8.5"x11" could be wrong! We could have a spellbook that is 2"x2" per page, and by the rules it still works!

So our technical official rules for this is: a spellbook must be a book, it can have any number of pages, and the book may be of any size (height x width x depth). Thems the rules. Deviate from that by GM/Group permission, and if you have a super tiny spellbook you may experience GM variation at official games (even though the rules don't specify spellbook size). And citing "common sense" as some sort of official rule to prevent this won't work, because that's not a part of the rules, either.


bookrat wrote:

The rules question was already answered: can't be done. There are no rules for it.

Now we're extrapolating from the rules to come up with new designs.

The rules say there is one spell level per page (which we've defined as a standard 8.5 x 11 page), with a minimum of one page. Using those rules and extrapolation, how else can we come up with a spellbook that gives the OP what s/he wants?

Wo while I know that you don't like that some of us have extrapolated from the rules, as you've made abundantly clear over and over again, the OP still asked a question and some of us like to try to answer it and give him/her and their GM some options.

Also, I noticed that earlier you said a spellbook must have 100 pages; this is incorrect. Per the rules, some spellbooks have 50 or 70 pages. these are spellbooks you can purchase blank and write in your own spells. But the rules even have more! There are spellbooks classified as four times the size of a normal spellbook! So a spellbook can have any number of pages, per the rules.

Here's a fun thought! The rules don't say how big the pages are in the spellbook! LazarX's assumption of 8.5"x11" could be wrong! We could have a spellbook that is 2"x2" per page, and by the rules it still works!

So our technical official rules for this is: a spellbook must be a book, it can have any number of pages, and the book may be of any size (height x width x depth). Thems the rules. Deviate from that by GM/Group permission, and if you have a super tiny spellbook you may experience GM variation at official games (even though the rules don't specify spellbook size). And citing "common sense" as some sort of official rule to prevent this won't work, because that's not a part of the...

The part I bolded is the problem. That's house ruling on something that doesn't currently exist, and is not appropriate for this forum.

The rules for wizards, under the heading Spellbooks, say that a spellbook has 100 pages and each spell written takes up a number of pages equal to spell level. There may be other more specific rules in other sources that override this. However, I maintain that the rules forum is for rules as written. I am not the only one who feels this way. There are dozens of other threads with other posters making this same distinction.

The rules forum is not a place where you can make rules for non-existent items such a a wizard's staff which replaces his standard 100-page spellbook or other specific spellbook-type items that are outlined in the rules. That is a topic for the house rules forum.

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