How (and if) would you rule that players can willingly set off traps without experiencing the bad effects? Especially since in some scenarios some traps appear that block progress. Do people roll their eyes, sigh, take one for the team, heal up again and continue? I've encountered something like the following, and people moaned that they're being arbitrarily punished (and I agree):
Me: "You enter a corridor."
Players: "Let's roll for perception."
Players: "I've got a 30."
Me: "You see that the ceiling might collapse on your head if you open the next door."
Players: "Okay, can we disable it?"
Me: "Afraid not. The door's bearing the weight of the ceiling, as soon as you open it, it collapses."
Players: "Will it cave in completely, blocking our progress?"
Me: "It's take a while to remove stones, but it doesn't look like the entire house will collapse."
Players: "Okay, I wanna trigger it, just to get on with it. Do I get a bonus because I know it'll happen?"
Me: "RAW, no, but I'll give you a +2."
So, in this case, people could clearly see what's happening, but no one had Knowledge Engineering or Disable Device to prevent it from collapsing. I've had a similar case where an axe trap reset itself constantly, so everyone who passed over it would get hit. It makes sense that if you've seen it coming once before, you get a bonus on your Reflex or AC to avoid it. I've also seen a few scenarios where things are arbitrarily trapped with a Flame Strike, but you need to open it to continue. Okay, things like Protection from Energy and some CLW will prevent or remedy it, but unless the traps are particularly nasty, people just have to grin and bear it. All the wands of CLW available trivialise things like this, and it just feels like an arbitrary wand drain, rather than a life-threatening trap, especially if it's spotted but no one can do anything about it.
Normally instead of "I'm going to have to walk into it and set it off" my players would say, "I summon a monster on to it," or "I poke it with a ten foot pole," or "I throw a big rock at it."
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Players: "Okay, can we disable it?"
Me: "Afraid not. The door's bearing the weight of the ceiling, as soon as you open it, it collapses."
If there is a Disable Device DC listed for the trap, then it can be disabled. The player of the disabler doesn't have to describe how he disables the trap any more than the player of the wizard needs to explain the arcane theory behind his spells.
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If there is a Disable Device DC listed for the trap, then it can be disabled. The player of the disabler doesn't have to describe how he disables the trap any more than the player of the wizard needs to explain the arcane theory behind his spells.Players: "Okay, can we disable it?"
Me: "Afraid not. The door's bearing the weight of the ceiling, as soon as you open it, it collapses."
Unless they don't have a rank in Disable Device, which is a trained only skill, or its a magical trap and they don't have trap finding.
The point is, they don't *have* disable device - and they want to do it anyway.
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The point is, they don't *have* disable device - and they want to do it anyway.
That interchange didn't make that at all clear.
Players: "Okay, can we disable it?"
Me: "Afraid not. The door's bearing the weight of the ceiling, as soon as you open it, it collapses."
Should have been
Players: "Okay, can we disable it?"
Me: "Afraid not, you don't have Disable Device."
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Why do people get upset about traps? Do these same people get upset when monsters try to kill them?
Lately, if Im in the front in a 'you have the higest AC' sort of way, anyone wanting to thoroughly check for traps better be willing to go before me, otherwise I just Take 10 on Perception and if I dont see anything I throw that door open with no regard to my safety.
Of course, if Im trained in DD, I make sure to actually spend some time looking. :P
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Do people roll their eyes, sigh, take one for the team, heal up again and continue? I've encountered something like the following, and people moaned that they're being arbitrarily punished (and I agree):
Not having the skills necessary to deal with traps isn't being punished, it is dealing with the consquences of not having the skills necessary to deal with traps.
It makes sense that if you've seen it coming once before, you get a bonus on your Reflex or AC to avoid it.
I'd say that the 'bonus' you get is that on subsequent triggers you aren't denied your Dexterity bonus to AC.
I've also seen a few scenarios where things are arbitrarily trapped with a Flame Strike, but you need to open it to continue.
It isn't arbitrary. Somebody wanted to keep people (like your characters) out and/or kill them for trespassing.
All the wands of CLW available trivialise things like this, and it just feels like an arbitrary wand drain, rather than a life-threatening trap, especially if it's spotted but no one can do anything about it.
You could say the exact same thing about most combat encounters.
I just think traps should have an alternate method of deactivation. In an actual campaign you really need a Rogue, but you can't guarantee party composition in PFS. I've seen ten-foot poled and such used where they made sense, but I think it's weird how according to the rules there's literally no way to circumvent a trap even if you know it's there.
I completely agree with all your points, I just think there should be a bit more leniency in PFS. Rogues are an unpopular class and though Unchained helped, I still don't see a lot of them around. Slayers have access to it as well, so that helps somewhat, but still.
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I would say that, once spotted, traps can be:
disabled, sprung,or avoided
Only one of those options generally requires disable device:
disabled usually requires disable device and may require trapfinding. In some cases, there may be other options such as erase or dispel magic
sprung Springing a trap may simply be draining a few charges off the wand of cure light wounds, casting protection from fire and sending the monk to set off the meteor swarm trap, or using a want of mount or summon monster I to set off the trap in a way that minimizes harm to the party. Sometimes, standing back 30 feet and casting open/close on the door may be enough to set off the trap when nobody is in the danger zone.
avoided Sometimes, if one entrance to the warehouse is trapped, avoiding the trap is as simple as entering though the other entrance, finding a window, or taking an axe to a wall. At higher levels, stone shape or dimension door can serve this purpose too.
If a character has the skills to find a trap, it is not RAW to say that you need Disable Device to either avoid or spring the trap. Disable device is for disabling a trap. If you don't have that skill, you generally only have two options for dealing with it. You don't have no options.
Even if you don't have the ability to find traps, what used to be considered smart dungeon exploring techniques can enable you to spring or avoid some traps without finding them. Spread the party out a bit so that traps that hit the point man don't hit the rest of the party too. Rope the party together if you are worried about pit traps or hidden chutes. Open doors from as far away as possible, make your own door rather than going through a door that would be a good spot for a trap. Summon a monkey to open dangerous looking chests rather than taking the trap yourself. That kind of play comes with its own costs since it will needlessly burn summoned monsters just to satisfy a PC's paranoia, and being roped together or spread out is usually suboptimal if you run into combat, but it is also an option.
Yeah, nothing to stop Pathfinders from having useful skills, and DD is one of them.
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I just think traps should have an alternate method of deactivation. In an actual campaign you really need a Rogue, but you can't guarantee party composition in PFS. I've seen ten-foot poled and such used where they made sense, but I think it's weird how according to the rules there's literally no way to circumvent a trap even if you know it's there.
I completely agree with all your points, I just think there should be a bit more leniency in PFS. Rogues are an unpopular class and though Unchained helped, I still don't see a lot of them around. Slayers have access to it as well, so that helps somewhat, but still.
There are plenty of ways to circumvent a trap when you know its there, even if you don't have disable device.
Your players just have to be creative.
Knowledge (engineering) might allow you to put up support beams so that when the roof does collapse, it is caught on a secondary support structure.
an eldritch portal might allow you to go through the door, without actually opening it.
and other ideas. Although just because there is this potential possibility, does not mean that every group of players will be able to come up with the correct creative idea.
Sometimes, triggering the trap and taking the consequences of doing so, are the only option. And that is ok.
Damage (HP or Ability or Condition) that must be fixed
- Alert enemies to your arrival
Enemies always know when you're coming. The stealth rules make it incredibly hard to move up on someone, and in a PFS group you almost always have someone that clanks loud enough to be heard over a heavy metal concert.
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If a trap is written into the adventure in such a way that all it does is do some damage while there's no encounter nearby, then it's really just a wand tax and rather dumb design. Flavorwise it might be meant to stop intruders half the level of the PCs. But otherwise, meh.
But as grandpoobah points out, some traps are more interesting because they have more consequences or don't happen in isolation.
And while BNW is correct about the difficulty of stealth, several PFS scenarios actually have the BBEG cast buffs explicitly because he's been warned by a trap. Presumably the trap gives better advance warning than random noise of what might just be loud minions doing their thing.
Enemies may eventually find out you're coming, but two additional rounds of buffing for the BBEG makes a difference.
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@Quentin: your question seems to boil down to: can people get past a trap by setting it off without risk to themselves?
Sometimes, yes. In a trap's statblock it has a reset condition listed. Traps that require manual reset can be bypassed this way. If reset is "automatic", PCs are in for a rude surprise.
But then, bypassing the trap this way isn't always a good idea, see grandpoobah's list upthread.
Choose wisely.
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To me the only interesting kind of trap is one that you know is there, and can't just conveniently remove with a dice roll. That's when you have to get creative.
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To me the only interesting kind of trap is one that you know is there, and can't just conveniently remove with a dice roll. That's when you have to get creative.
I agree. Traps that are too hard to notice before they trigger are basically a random event that happens to you. Things get much more interesting when it's easier to spot a trap than to get past it unscathed.
Wand of Unseen Servant or Summon Monster is an excellent trapspringer.
I've always been a fan of just breaking traps as opposed to disable device. Breaking them is usually faster (considering two handed power attacks).
My second favorite is using wands of summon mount.
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I just don't like the DMs who play traps as unbreakable.
Everything can be broken.
Trap are not Magical Artifacts, and even those can be destroyed with the right conditions.
Probably because they don't know how to figure the hardness and hit points (or even know) of the trap's elements. And they don't feel comfortable just hand waving it.
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I suppose.
It can be frustrating to the player, whose PC can punch through Walls of Force, and suddenly, hits a trap with their big weapon, and the DM just says "It has no effect".
I mean, at that point, you might as well smash through the wall near the trap. At least it functions like a real, physical object.
Probably because they don't know how to figure the hardness and hit points (or even know) of the trap's elements. And they don't feel comfortable just hand waving it.I just don't like the DMs who play traps as unbreakable.
Everything can be broken.
Trap are not Magical Artifacts, and even those can be destroyed with the right conditions.
It's irrelevant what they are assuming there is sufficient time and no other impending threats. Even if you can only manage 1 point of damage per round, it would eventually break.
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I just don't like the DMs who play traps as unbreakable.
Everything can be broken.
Trap are not Magical Artifacts, and even those can be destroyed with the right conditions.
harder to brake a downed live power line (just a cable on the ground) -
Player: "I hit it with my 'big weapon'"
Judge: "Zap! 6d6 electrical damage."
Player: "I hit it again!"
Judge: "Zap! 6d6 elect..."
(rinse and repeat)
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It's irrelevant what they are assuming there is sufficient time and no other impending threats. Even if you can only manage 1 point of damage per round, it would eventually break.Probably because they don't know how to figure the hardness and hit points (or even know) of the trap's elements. And they don't feel comfortable just hand waving it.I just don't like the DMs who play traps as unbreakable.
Everything can be broken.
Trap are not Magical Artifacts, and even those can be destroyed with the right conditions.
unless it is self-repairing... which I have encountered.
or worse yet - it transfers the damage to someone else (closest creature?)...
unless it is self-repairing... which I have encountered.
or worse yet - it transfers the damage to someone else (closest creature?)...
To my knowledge, there is no such example within Paizo materials (not including all possible adventure paths) of traps that repair damage they have taken magically.
Nor have I seen an example where it transfer damage to someone else.
While they might be reasonable things (to some GMs) to make exist, I don't think there are any rules that support it.
It's also kind of a jerk move, because it forces someone to play a trap disabler, even when no one may want to play it, or else have the adventure grind to a halt because you make a trap essentially unable to be bypassed.
Using a 10ft pole, a wand of summon mount/monster, breaking the trap with sunder, going around the trap (either through a wall with magic, etc), or disabling it using disable device should all be equally valid ways of dealing with the problem.
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unless it is self-repairing... which I have encountered.
or worse yet - it transfers the damage to someone else (closest creature?)...
To my knowledge, there is no such example within Paizo materials (not including all possible adventure paths) of traps that repair damage they have taken magically.
Nor have I seen an example where it transfer damage to someone else.
While they might be reasonable things (to some GMs) to make exist, I don't think there are any rules that support it.
It's also kind of a jerk move, because it forces someone to play a trap disabler, even when no one may want to play it, or else have the adventure grind to a halt because you make a trap essentially unable to be bypassed.
Using a 10ft pole, a wand of summon mount/monster, breaking the trap with sunder, going around the trap (either through a wall with magic, etc), or disabling it using disable device should all be equally valid ways of dealing with the problem.
no, it doesn't force the Players to run a trap disabler - it just means the trap would need to be avoided. By passed or gotten around.
Player 1: "Door's trapped - guess I'll just hit it with a big stick"
Player 2: "Door's trapped? here, we'll go in the window/thru the roof/around and in the back door..."
Traps (can) force players to do something other than "solve the problem by hitting it with a big stick"...
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unless it is self-repairing... which I have encountered.
or worse yet - it transfers the damage to someone else (closest creature?)...
To my knowledge, there is no such example within Paizo materials (not including all possible adventure paths) of traps that repair damage they have taken magically.
Nor have I seen an example where it transfer damage to someone else.
While they might be reasonable things (to some GMs) to make exist, I don't think there are any rules that support it.
It's also kind of a jerk move, because it forces someone to play a trap disabler, even when no one may want to play it, or else have the adventure grind to a halt because you make a trap essentially unable to be bypassed.
Using a 10ft pole, a wand of summon mount/monster, breaking the trap with sunder, going around the trap (either through a wall with magic, etc), or disabling it using disable device should all be equally valid ways of dealing with the problem.
[sarcasm]
You know what I hate? Encounters that force you into combat.It's also kind of a jerk move, because it forces someone to play a [combat PC], even when no one may want to play it, or else have the adventure grind to a halt because you make a [fight] essentially unable to be bypassed.
[/sarcasm]
Traps are just another challenge to be overcome.
Like Combat, or Diplomatic events, or puzzles, or any of the other challenges that we will encounter in this adventure...
If all of them can be overcome with a "big stick" - it makes this game of ours one of "Rock-Paper"... not "Rock-Paper-Scissors".
And it makes me feel really good when we come to a challenge (a trap) and I can say to the rest of the players - "Ha! a Stromburg and Fergason Caustic Spray #7, with a Sonic Proximity Trigger! This is a piece of cake! I think I may have taught the guy who installed this thing... here, let me re-wire it so we can slip past, but anyone sneaking up on us will get a nasty surprise...". After all - I told the other players that if we encounter any traps in here, I not only "own them" but I "installed the things myself".
Traps (can) force players to do something other than "solve the problem by hitting it with a big stick"...
hit the wall with an adamantine stick.
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hit the wall with an adamantine stick.
Traps (can) force players to do something other than "solve the problem by hitting it with a big stick"...
let's hope the wall isn't load bearing...
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hit the wall with an adamantine stick.
Traps (can) force players to do something other than "solve the problem by hitting it with a big stick"...
let's hope the wall isn't load bearing...
** spoiler omitted **
so the GM points out that that would help anyone ABOVE the rubble...
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** spoiler omitted **hit the wall with an adamantine stick.
Traps (can) force players to do something other than "solve the problem by hitting it with a big stick"...
let's hope the wall isn't load bearing...
** spoiler omitted **
Load bearing groups that may as well be swarms but still effectively have 4 HP for AoE? Encounter that encourages the cleric to channel? Either the villains are so obsessed with the PCs that they learned about their tactics and were willing to sacrifice a portion of their temple just to spite them, or the GM is being just a bit harsh.
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Player 1: "Door's trapped - guess I'll just hit it with a big stick"
Player 2: "Door's trapped? here, we'll go in the window/thru the roof/around and in the back door..."Traps (can) force players to do something other than "solve the problem by hitting it with a big stick"...
It should still be an option.
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It should still be an option.Player 1: "Door's trapped - guess I'll just hit it with a big stick"
Player 2: "Door's trapped? here, we'll go in the window/thru the roof/around and in the back door..."Traps (can) force players to do something other than "solve the problem by hitting it with a big stick"...
Sometimes.... And it should be an option to avoid combat with a Diplomacy Check.
But it should not be an option every time... The answer should not always be "hit it with a big stick". Just like the winning choice should not always be "paper".
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Load bearing groups that may as well be swarms but still effectively have 4 HP for AoE? Encounter that encourages the cleric to channel? Either the villains are so obsessed with the PCs that they learned about their tactics and were willing to sacrifice a portion of their temple just to spite them, or the GM is being just a bit harsh.** spoiler omitted **hit the wall with an adamantine stick.
Traps (can) force players to do something other than "solve the problem by hitting it with a big stick"...
let's hope the wall isn't load bearing...
** spoiler omitted **
The encounter was actually in a home game many years ago (back before swarms were a monster, and clerics "dusted" undead who were less than half their level. And detect undead would have given them away... And a lot of other things.) The game was A LOT of FUN. Which is the important part right?
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I suppose.
It can be frustrating to the player, whose PC can punch through Walls of Force, and suddenly, hits a trap with their big weapon, and the DM just says "It has no effect".
I mean, at that point, you might as well smash through the wall near the trap. At least it functions like a real, physical object.
I would love to see that build, for a "PC that can punch through Walls of Force."
I know that a Forcecage pretty much stopped dead a Sunder build.... Given enough time, and no enemies around, I guess he could have, eventually, broken it. It has the same hardness and hit points as a Wall of Force from the same caster would, too.
Hardness 30, so adamantine doesn't bypass it.
Hit points: 20 per caster level, minimum caster level is 9, so 180 hit points, minimum.
So, minimum, is 210 points of damage, in a single shot, to destroy it.
As the number of attacks needed to destroy it grows, so does the total damage that needs to be dealt, as each additional attack has to deal with that 30 hardness, other than a few abilities that let you accumulate damage from a full attack and apply hardness once to that set of attacks.
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I would love to see that build, for a "PC that can punch through Walls of Force."
I know that a Forcecage pretty much stopped dead a Sunder build.... Given enough time, and no enemies around, I guess he could have, eventually, broken it. It has the same hardness and hit points as a Wall of Force from the same caster would, too.
Hardness 30, so adamantine doesn't bypass it.
Hit points: 20 per caster level, minimum caster level is 9, so 180 hit points, minimum.
So, minimum, is 210 points of damage, in a single shot, to destroy it.
As the number of attacks needed to destroy it grows, so does the total damage that needs to be dealt, as each additional attack has to deal with that 30 hardness, other than a few abilities that let you accumulate damage from a full attack and apply hardness once to that set of attacks.
Wouldn't a barbarian with Spell Sunder be able to do that pretty readily?