Theurge Class and Mystic Theurge PRC


Advice and Rules Questions


Hey guys, first post as I have seen nothing referencing this type of ruling.

I have a player who wants to multi-class 4 Theurge base class and 1 lvl of wizard before going 3 levels into Mystic Theurge PRC. As I am understanding it, he is choosing his Theurge class as his "existing divine spellcasting class" and the wizard as his wizard levels as "existing arcane spellcasting class."

For those of you who need it, here is a link to the Kobold Press base class: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/kobold-press-open-design/ theurge

I am wondering exactly how this works with regards to spell slots. The Theurge's slots are split specifically between arcane and divine but they both progress over time. This seems to show that he would gain the obvious wizard progression but also more arcane slots from Theurge. More relevantly interesting is the idea that he is getting double his INT bonus to casting slots as well because of the interaction with the split casting ability.

The main question is, does anyone think this is an inherent balance problem and, secondarily, does anyone see a rules conflict with how these class abilities interact? Thanks!

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

They need more than 1 level of Wizard unless you are allowing early entrance via SLA?


James Risner wrote:
They need more than 1 level of Wizard unless you are allowing early entrance via SLA?

I'm not sure if that is true based on the fact that the theurge satisfies prereqs for both the arcane and divine in theory. The only reason for the 1 lvl of wizard for him is arcane bond, school spec and having a "target" for the "existing arcane school" level bonus. He wants the class abilities plus I don't think he wants to argue that he can get 2 simultaneous progressions in the theurge casting (by choosing it for both the +arcane lvls and the +divine levels from the PRC)


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Super Genius Games has a Magister class, which is effectively a spontaneous version of the Theurge.

It has in its "Spells" description the following:

Magister wrote:
A magister functions as both an arcane and a divine spellcaster, qualifying as either for purposes of prerequisites and magic effects. (but only counts as one of the two for any specific requirement). Similarly, a magister’s spells can act as either arcane or divine spells (but not both at the same time). For example, while both a cleric 3/magister 4 and a magister 4/wizard 3 qualify for the mystic theurge prestige class, a magister 7/sorcerer 1 does not. (In no case should a GM allow things clearly designed for multiclass arcane/divine spellcasters to apply to a single-class magister character in a disruptive or unbalancing manner.)

For the sake of balance, it's probably best to follow its example.


I would declare that Theurge and Mystic Theurge are incompatible. There is no provision for them to be combined so anything you do with them is up to GM decision.

Theurge wouldn't count as either a divine caster or as an arcane caster as far as I'm concerned (it is a true hybrid caster instead, which is a very powerful option already), so it wouldn't qualify and MT wouldn't progress it.
Alternatively, there is the precedent that you cannot multiclass rogue and ninja because they are alternative versions of the same class.

It's your game, rule how you wish. I'd want to see how a straight Theurge played before allowing extra cheese.

Liberty's Edge

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The Theurge class was written specifically to be a base class the replaces the Mystic Theurge prestige class path. As others have correctly said, trying to combine them is needlessly complicated and leads to plenty of potential issues.

GMs should definitely not allow a character to do both. And really, there's little reason to do so in the first place. The Theurge base class gives a player all the flexibility, power and versatility of the Mystic Theurge (and then some) right from 1st level


Alright, let's look at an example someone just brought up here in this thread, the magister. If magister and theurge got multiclassed, would you let them qualify as the arcane and divine casters?
Now you've got a character with full casting in two divines and two arcanes, up to 8th? Maybe 9th level spells?
Would you let that cheese pass? It's a slightly more exaggerated example but it's the same concept. I don't feel theurge works with mystic theurge because it would give you 3 casting class progressions. Frankly even two from theurge or mystic theurge is a little bit iffy for my taste, at least mystic theurge puts them behind on their progression to make up for the diversity and volume of their casting. I haven't looked very hard at the theurge base class, but I do feel that it has the potential to be more than enough by itself , no extra sharp cheddar attached.


Shiroi wrote:

Alright, let's look at an example someone just brought up here in this thread, the magister. If magister and theurge got multiclassed, would you let them qualify as the arcane and divine casters?

Now you've got a character with full casting in two divines and two arcanes, up to 8th? Maybe 9th level spells?
Would you let that cheese pass? It's a slightly more exaggerated example but it's the same concept. I don't feel theurge works with mystic theurge because it would give you 3 casting class progressions. Frankly even two from theurge or mystic theurge is a little bit iffy for my taste, at least mystic theurge puts them behind on their progression to make up for the diversity and volume of their casting. I haven't looked very hard at the theurge base class, but I do feel that it has the potential to be more than enough by itself , no extra sharp cheddar attached.

Magister + Theurge + Mystic Theurge is arguably weaker than either Magister or Theurge alone. For one, you still lose out on at least 3 levels from Magister, or 4 levels of Theurge. Furthermore, both classes have actually decent class features (Mystic Bond and Second Bond at level 11 for Magister and then combined spell progression). Then there's the issue of needing all 3 mental stats in order to cast any of your spells (INT & WIS for Theurge, CHA and a lesser emphasis on WIS for Magister).

Honestly, I would allow it, but ONLY in the way the Magister class says it should be allowed (i.e. Magister 4/Theurge 3 entry).

Further expanding on that, I wouldn't allow the Mystic Theurge's Dual progression to affect the same class twice.

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

As this is regarding 3rd Party content, I've flagged it to be moved to the 3rd Party forum. Often times the developers and authors of such content will even post their opinions and answer questions there. Barring that, you can get suggestions and houserule ideas from other GMs who've tried it before.

It's impossible to properly answer this question in this forum.

Liberty's Edge

Actually the author of the Theurge class, from the New Paths Compendium from Kobold Press by the way, already did respond, right here in this very thread! :)


Marc Radle wrote:
Actually the author of the Theurge class, from the New Paths Compendium from Kobold Press by the way, already did respond, right here in this very thread! :)

And now that I'm aware of it, I shall be seeing what my current GM thinks about your Theurge. Thank you.

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Marc Radle wrote:
Actually the author of the Theurge class, from the New Paths Compendium from Kobold Press by the way, already did respond, right here in this very thread! :)

Your edit is much more clear ;-)


Thank you all and I appreciate the overwhelming feedback as well as the reference to the Magister class. I also apologize for my ignorance in posting in the wrong place. I was definitely going to not allow the classes to work in the way he was suggesting but understanding the precedents and relevant issues is very much appreciated.

I will probably give him the Magister option if he wants but I doubt he will as it definitely lacks the more exploitative nature of the build he has created. Thanks again and enjoy again!


"The Magister option" reminds me of the Magister class from Arcane Unearthed/Evolved. Someone should try to convert those classes to Pathfinder some day...

Liberty's Edge

Nefreet wrote:
Marc Radle wrote:
Actually the author of the Theurge class, from the New Paths Compendium from Kobold Press by the way, already did respond, right here in this very thread! :)
Your edit is much more clear ;-)

My aim is to please :)

Liberty's Edge

Gilarius wrote:
Marc Radle wrote:
Actually the author of the Theurge class, from the New Paths Compendium from Kobold Press by the way, already did respond, right here in this very thread! :)
And now that I'm aware of it, I shall be seeing what my current GM thinks about your Theurge. Thank you.

Excellent! There are actually a number of new classes in the New Paths Compendium in addition to the Theurge base class. Hope everyone who hasn't already checks the book out!


I've recently starting playing a Theurge, it's a really fun class. I'm glad it was brought into creation. Keep up the awesome work!

Liberty's Edge

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Tentacledone wrote:
I've recently starting playing a Theurge, it's a really fun class. I'm glad it was brought into creation. Keep up the awesome work!

Fantastic!!! :)

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

If he goes the Prestige Class route, I hope he finds spell books & scrolls. As it reads, you only learn your new spells automatically for both spell books if you've gained a level in the Theurge class. Mystic Theurge only gives you new spell slots.

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