Hi all,
There are a couple of issues that we came across and I'm sure about the correct way to resolve them:
1) Ulkreths in 'The Fall of Kenabres”: there are 8 locations in a 6-character game, and there are 8 Ulkreths in the game. What am I supposed to do if I come across Arboreal Blight and there's no Ulkreths in the box?
2) Demonic Fly says “if undefeated shuffle in another open location”. What happens if it's undefeated in the last open location? Do I banish it? Would seem strange if I get a free monster banish out of failure …
3) For monsters with “If you succeed at Knowledge X check, or if your check has the Y/Z/.. trait...” power: am I allowed to attempt the Knowledge check first and if I fail – then to determine my Spell (for example) with which to add traits? I'm not exactly sure on the timing of this power.
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#2 seems to me to be a clear case of "If something is impossible, don't do it."
I generally rule #1 the same way, unless you've already killed one, and then it becomes possible again.
It would depend on the exact wording of #3, but assuming the knowledge check is before you act, that comes before determining what cards are affecting the check, so yes, you could do that.
I'll let the experts weigh in, even though Theryon was just assuring me today that he's not an expert. :-p
1) You get a free pass due to the Golden Rule (ignoring impossible instructions).
2) Golden Rule kicks in and you ignore shuffling it into a random other open location. As such, you shuffle it back into the location it came from due to the normal rule for a card being undefeated. Normally, you shuffle it into the random other open location and ignore the rulebook rule for shuffling it back into the location it came from (because it's no longer visible/able to be shuffled back in).
3) I really am not sure on this one. On one hand, I believe that power would be triggered during the "Play Cards and Use Powers That Affect Your Check" step, which is after you've played your spell in the "Determine Which Skill You're Using" step. On the other, that would mean you get a nested check which is a no-no for PACG.
@Elizabeth: Filth Demon at the very least has no such "Before You Act" qualifier for that power. I believe other cards are the same. As such, the step it is applied in isn't exactly clear, but Play Cards and Use Powers That Affect Your Check is the best fit I can see for it. It affects the check by adding a bonus to it, but it also requires you to do a check while you're already doing a check, which is icky.
Thanks for the input! I have a couple more:
4) Imrijka's Cold Iron Warden: "when you defeat a monster, you may examine the top card of your deck, and if it's not a monster, put it on the bottom of the location deck" - does the "may" in this sentence apply to bothe actions -the 'examine" and "our on the bottom", or if I examine then I HAVE to put the non-monster on the bottom of deck (which, while sucking for cool boons, would still be a great power for barrier-heavy locations)?
5) Adowyn's Blight Scout: "when you examine the top card of a location deck, you may recharge a card to examine an ADDITIONAL card": am I correct that in tandem with Leyrin this will net me a 3 card total examines, or do the two powers cancel each other out (i.e. I can only check the top two cards)?
6) Adowyin / Alain's controversial Lancer powers: "search you deck or discard pile for an X card". Now, I don't believe I'm SUPPOSED to remember what's in my deck at any time - but does that mean I can essentially get a *free* shuffle of my deck each time I use the ability, even if I'm confident I don't have a card of the specified type within?
4) If you choose to examine, you MUST put non-monsters on the bottom.
5) You get to examine 3 cards.
6) No, that's cheating. There is a post from Vic about this; I'll see if I can dig it up. EDIT: here it is. This was in a reply to Andowyn's power but applies to all similar powers.
I'm not so sure about #4. The "and" makes me think the second part is also optional. It would read much more clearly as required if "and" wasn't there.
The power is actually worded like so: "When you defeat a monster on your turn, (☐ you may examine the top card of your location deck, and if it is not a monster, put it on the bottom of the location deck, then) you may roll 1d6; on a (☐ 3,) 4, 5, or 6, explore your location."
This is a mother of run-on sentences, but can be parsed very sensibly like so (italics are commentary on the fragment):
1. When you defeat a monster on your turn, trigger condition, self-explanatory
2. you may examine the top card of your location deck, part of what to do when the trigger happens, is optional due to may
3. and if it is not a monster, put it on the bottom of the location deck, this tells you what to do in case you took the action in step 2. It says if you don't examine a monster, you put it on the bottom of the deck. Not optional
4. then you may roll 1d6; second part of what to do when the trigger happens, also optional due to may
5. on a 3, 4, 5, or 6, explore your location this tells you what to do in case you took the action in step 4. It says if you decided to roll, you must explore your location if you roll a 3-6. Not optional
If it was just "You may roll 1d6, on a 4, 5, or 6, explore your location" you likely wouldn't say that you can choose to not explore even if you get a 4-6 because the "may" somehow also extends to exploring after you see the result of your roll. The exact same logic applies to the type of card you examine. Similarly, if it was "You may examine the top card of your location deck, put it on the bottom of the location deck" you wouldn't say that putting the card on the bottom is optional -- if you choose to examine then it goes to the bottom. Same logic applies when you only need to put it on the bottom if it's a non-monster.
On point 3 the rule is quite clear that when you have options you must select one before playing any card or rolling any dice, and you cannot change your mind and try the other one after.
On point 2 it's clearly the "if impossible, forget it" rule, thus the special power doesn't apply if encountered in the last open location. Thus you apply the standard rule and reshuffle it in the location. Note that the wording on the Mist Horror is not the same.
On point 1 not sure any rule strictly apply. The way we would play it is check online what is an Ulkreth and play with it. Or better: just make sure you don't summon an Ulkreth :-).
On point 4 I will for once disagree with Hawk and support skizzerz : if you choose to examine, you MUST put non-monsters on the bottom. Else there would have been a second "may" in the sentence. Like : ☐ you may examine the top card of your location deck, and if it is not a monster, you may put it on the bottom of the location deck...
On points 5 and 6, see the very good anwswers above.
Away from my cards for the moment, but isn't the Demonic Fly "if DEFEATED shuffle into another random open location?" ie: he stays where he is if you lose, he goes somewhere else if you win (until you finally utter a cry of victory when you beat it in the last open location after encountering it four times in one scenario)
I think you're thinking of the Giant fFy card. The Demonic one its a penalty for not defeating it.
Oh! Well that makes more sense. I was sitting here like "I know there's been 500 threads about where that fly goes and how you actually <i>get rid of the damn thing</i>" My bad. :D (thank god we've never had that demonic fly be undefeated, I guess. the one acid damage is enough of a pain)
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I have to disagree on #1, skizzerz. The cards don't care if you run out of Ulkreths. Like Frencois said, try to find what Ulkreth is and encounter it. It's not a free pass.
On #3, I have to agree with Frencois again where if there is a choice of doing a check or play a spell (or anything) with certain traits, you decide first. You can't decide to attempt the Int/Know check, fail it, then play the Force Missile to avoid increasing the difficulty. However, if a caster tries the check and fails and his only option is a Force Missile, we don't increase the difficulty anyway.
On #4, according to the actual wording, I'd say you must put a non-monster on the bottom. I don't see a choice ("may") at that point in the wording of the power.
On #6, Searching is followed by shuffling. Examining usually tells you whether to shuffle afterwards or just put the cards back (in an order of your choosing).
@Elizabeth, nice to meet you officially although we did bump into each other at GenCon because I did recognize you. And I'm not an expert but I do try to keep abreast of rulings and discussions. Was glad to have you play at my table this weekend and looking forward to two weekends from now.
For #1, I was drawing parallels to Pinnacle Atoll in S&S where after you shuffled Hirgenzosk into the location, you don't have to invent additional Hirgenzosks if you continue to roll 1's on your d12s while he is currently chilling in the location deck -- there are no longer any Hirgenzosk's in the box so it becomes impossible to shuffle on in the location deck. You don't need proxy it or crib another Hirgenzosk card from another base set. I could've sworn there was a post by Tanis about summoning and encountering henchmen that worked the same way (since it came up in a Season of the Shackles guild scenario where it was possible to summon an encounter a henchmen where every copy of it was already shuffled away into a location deck), but I can no longer find that post.
I have to disagree on #1, skizzerz. The cards don't care if you run out of Ulkreths. Like Frencois said, try to find what Ulkreth is and encounter it. It's not a free pass.
There was a similar question regarding Skeleton Horde in RotR, and the ruling was that if all of the Ancient Skeleton's were in decks, you didn't have to fight them.
Of course, if you want to proxy one henchman you can do that. Or if you want to try to look up what the henchman is you can do that. Or if you just remember what it is, you're good to go. But the game doesn't require you to do any of that. If you are told to summon a card and the card isn't in the box, you don't summon it.
But... I didn't go to GenCon...
Your evil twin that gets to do all the fun stuff.
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There are so many evil twins running around at GenCon ... that's not an unusual sight. I'd say that some of my friends have evil twins ... but no, that's just they way they are.
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And it is always going to be tough when you have all the specified henchmen in the location decks and you're told to summon one to fight. I'd say you make the effort to figure out what the henchman's stats and powers are to encounter it. But if you can't, you can't. I wouldn't advise someone to start searching through the location decks to find the card.
Chief Technical Officer
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3) I really am not sure on this one. On one hand, I believe that power would be triggered during the "Play Cards and Use Powers That Affect Your Check" step, which is after you've played your spell in the "Determine Which Skill You're Using" step. On the other, that would mean you get a nested check which is a no-no for PACG.
This FAQ says "The card you're encountering might require or allow a check that can affect your check to acquire or defeat; you must resolve that check before you begin the check to acquire or defeat."
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Chief Technical Officer
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On point 1 not sure any rule strictly apply. The way we would play it is check online what is an Ulkreth and play with it. Or better: just make sure you don't summon an Ulkreth :-).
"If you’re told to do something with a certain number of cards and there aren’t that many cards available, use as many as there are."
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Chief Technical Officer
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On point 4 I will for once disagree with Hawk and support skizzerz : if you choose to examine, you MUST put non-monsters on the bottom. Else there would have been a second "may" in the sentence. Like : ☐ you may examine the top card of your location deck, and if it is not a monster, you may put it on the bottom of the location deck...
That.
On point 1 not sure any rule strictly apply. The way we would play it is check online what is an Ulkreth and play with it. Or better: just make sure you don't summon an Ulkreth :-)."If you’re told to do something with a certain number of cards and there aren’t that many cards available, use as many as there are."
Ooops forgot that one. Thanks Vic.
It turns out there's a (very) minor consolation for being surrounded on all sides by Ulkreths and drawing an Arboreal Blight.
4) Cold Iron Warden Imrijka's looking for monsters. Much like RotR Seelah's start of turn looking for banes, Imrijka is looking for trouble that she can murder (and hopefully turn into more explores). Sometimes you will have to bottom-deck a boon you want, but you also get to bottom-deck Arboreal Blights and Demonic Hordes so it's not all bad ;)
4) Cold Iron Warden Imrijka's looking for monsters. Much like RotR Seelah's start of turn looking for banes, Imrijka is looking for trouble that she can murder (and hopefully turn into more explores). Sometimes you will have to bottom-deck a boon you want, but you also get to bottom-deck Arboreal Blights and Demonic Hordes so it's not all bad ;)
I got to put two barriers in a row (on consecutive turns) on the bottom of my location deck (and it was the Locust Shrine, so it was even better!)!!! As much as I'd love to be able to beat people into being my friends, evading and shoving barriers to the bottom is just so much better...