Feats for a Rogue


Advice


Right now, we've got a goblin Rogue (Knife Master archetype) in my campaign; I am the GM and running Carrion Crown.

I am already planning on Weapon Finesse and Weapon Focus as Rogue talents, and taking the teamwork feats Outflank and Precise Strike to improve his sneak attacks.

Do you guys have any suggestions as to feats that will help the goblin Rogue to do well?


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1. Yes, change from Rogue to Unchained Rogue. Everyone else in the universe is doing it and with reason - the base class is absolute crap.

2. Iron Will and Great Fortitude are amazing, mind-blowingly good feats. Considering how high the DCs are in this campaign, instead of Great Fortitude, he might want to use Twist Away instead.

3. If you are using Daggers, a couple of ranks in Knowledge Religion for Deific Obidience (Pharasma) is both thematic with the campaign and a great boost - +2 attack with daggers is really sweet.

4. Who is taking those teamwork feats with you? Remember they aren't activated unless the other person also has the feat.

5. TWF and such are actually good for Unchained Rogues.

6. Whatever you do, please convince him to go with a S12 D16 C15 I8 W14 CH8 stat distribution (if using 20 point buy), before racials, so he can aid that HP and saves, and compensate for the STR penalty (which will negatively affect CMD).


One, I have no idea what an "unchained Rogue" is. I obviously don't have the sourcebook to go with it.

He already has Great Fortitude, and is planning on taking Iron Will at 3rd level. At 5th, I was thinking of getting him to take Outflank, and at 7th Precise Strike. Meanwhile, the Rogue talents will help him get Weapon Finesse and Weapon Focus. He already has the traits Resilient and Indomitable Faith (+1 Fort and Will).

What is "Twist Away"?

Deific Obedience? How long does the +2 bonus to hit with daggers last?

I am hoping that the Cleric and Paladin will want Outflank and Precise Strike as well, given that it would grant +4 attack and +1d6 damage when flanking.

Right now, the goblin Rogue's stats are as follows:
Str 12
Dex 20
Con 12
Int 14
Wis 12
Cha 8

We aren't doing a point buy, obviously, these stats were rolled up naturally.

Grand Lodge

From the Pathfinder Unchained book.

Core Rogue has been shown to be the statistically worst class, outside of NPC Classes.

Unchained Rogue actually works, and even gets Weapon Finesse and Dex to damage for free. You can even give it the Knife Master archetype you are using. Basically, everything you have, and more, and better at what you already do.

Also, this belongs in the Advice section.


Since I don't have this Unchained book, how about I just adjust his Dexterity up 2 points to compensate for Rogue class not being all that great?

Dex to damage? Never heard of that before.

I haven't the power to alter where this is posted. I made the best guess I could as to where it belonged when I made it.


Deific Obedience is from Inner Sea Gods, and has a different benefit for each of the core deities. Once per day you need to have some sort of prayer time devoted to the deity, which takes no more than 1 hour to perform. You then get the benefit for the rest of the day. For Pharasma, as mentioned the initial benefit is a +2 sacred or profane bonus to attacks w/ daggers. You then can get some (sp) and (su) abilities if you were to take one of the prestige classes in the book.

The Evangelist is one of the more attractive prestige classes, mostly because you lag behind one level, and then you continue to get the benefits from your main class at each new level... but I digress...


Read on the Unchained Rogue here.

Grand Lodge

Go here, or here.

Now you have the Unchained Rogue.

If you like it, then you can nab the PDF here, for about 10 bucks, when you get around to it.

You must be very new.

Welcome!


Piccolo wrote:

Since I don't have this Unchained book, how about I just adjust his Dexterity up 2 points to compensate for Rogue class not being all that great?

Dex to damage? Never heard of that before.

I haven't the power to alter where this is posted. I made the best guess I could as to where it belonged when I made it.

Dex to damage happens with Slashing Grace, Fencing Grace, Dervish Dance, the Agile weapon enchantment, the Unchained Rogue's Finesse Training, Trench Fighter's Trench Warfare, the Gunslinger's Gun Training, and the Bolt Ace's Crossbow Training. Probably some others, but these are off the top of my head.

Increasing Dex by 2 is effectively +1 AC, +1 initiative, +1 to some skills, and +1 to hit. This is a nice bonus, but it provides fewer options than the Unchained Rogue's abilities, particularly the 4th level Debilitating Injury, which is effectively +4 AC or +4 to hit after you hit a guy. Not to mention the damage boost from Finesse Training, which is dex to damage.


blackbloodtroll wrote:


You must be very new.

Welcome!

Nope. Very old school gamer dating back to 1st ed and 2nd ed. I just don't have the moolah right now to purchase another big Pathfinder book, and won't for some time.

I have been looking for the Agile enchantment. Where does one find it? It isn't listed in the PRD, near as I can see.

Grand Lodge

Piccolo wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:


You must be very new.

Welcome!

Nope. Very old school gamer dating back to 1st ed and 2nd ed. I just don't have the moolah right now to purchase another big Pathfinder book, and won't for some time.

I have been looking for the Agile enchantment. Where does one find it? It isn't listed in the PRD, near as I can see.

It is from one of the Companions, the Pathfinder Society Field Guide, IIRC.


oof. No wonder. I collected all the racial Companions, and started a subscription, but not that far back.


Click me - I'm helpful!. Agile is found in the Pathfinder Society Field Guide.

Archives of Nethys is a great resource. If I have a good idea of what I want and where it will be this is my goto site.
so is D20SRD I find it easier to browse fhere, the layout is just a little easier to navigate. although be aware some names of some things like selected traits and prestige classes have been changed due to, I presume, not being OGL.
or the PRD right here, which is probably the easiest to use but isn't as comprehensive.


Do check out Archives of Nethys, it's a great collection of the public game license publications.

Particularly for Unchained Rogue and the Twist Away feat.


Hmmm. The only thing I don't like about this Twist Away feat is that you end up staggered for a turn. Not sure it's a good idea.

Grand Lodge

I believe there is a nice little ring that provides a solution for that problem, a few times a day.


Quote:
Hmmm. The only thing I don't like about this Twist Away feat is that you end up staggered for a turn. Not sure it's a good idea.

Have you READ the Carrion Crown books?! Trust me, staggered for a round > the things that happens if you fail a Fort save from Book 2 or 3 onwards. A LOT of times it's just "fail this Fort save and die" (cough cough book 3).

kinevon wrote:
I believe there is a nice little ring that provides a solution for that problem, a few times a day.

Doesn't work as per Twist Away errata. Still a neat feat.


Secret Wizard wrote:


Have you READ the Carrion Crown books?! Trust me, staggered for a round > the things that happens if you fail a Fort save from Book 2 or 3 onwards. A LOT of times it's just "fail this Fort save and die" (cough cough book 3).

Do you recall where in Broken Moon that is? I don't recall that being the case, and I ran it once before. Auron Vrood shouldn't have Circle of Death, as I remember.


He do (DC21).

It gets worse from then on.


I actually did the math, and Vrood is a typo. He shouldn't have Circle of Death. But, you win, I'll recommend Twist Away to the player of the Rogue.

However, I don't really see what is so different in the Unchained version of the Rogue, other than getting Weapon Finesse a level early, and getting dex to damage at 3rd level.


Piccolo wrote:

I actually did the math, and Vrood is a typo. He shouldn't have Circle of Death. But, you win, I'll recommend Twist Away to the player of the Rogue.

However, I don't really see what is so different in the Unchained version of the Rogue, other than getting Weapon Finesse a level early, and getting dex to damage at 3rd level.

That in and of itself is fairly big.

However, you also gain Debilitating Injury, which can debuff enemy hit chance or enemy AC. That's very important for a 3/4 BAB class with light armor.

Major Magic was fixed- it scales for 1 use per 2 levels of a 1st level spell a day, instead of just 2 uses of a 1st level spell a day. Combined with Bookish Rogue, you can actually get a good number of different uses out of it at higher levels.


That is the big thing, as it saves the Rogue a lot of money and a feat so it can desk at least mediocre damage when sneak attack isn't an option.

But the other large improvement is Debilitating Injury. Rogues have the WORST accuracy in the game. Debilitating Injury reducing an enemy's AC (by 2 for everyone, by 4/6/8 for the Rogue) allows the Rogue to remain competitive.

Rogue's Edge is also a neat thing but not so vital.

Some Rogue Talents got redesigned too.


Secret Wizard wrote:


Rogues have the WORST accuracy in the game.

Okay, he's gonna get BAB, +6 (dexterity of 22, Weapon Finesse), +2 from Deific Obedience (daggers), +1 from Weapon Focus, +4 from Outflank. That's +13 to attack on top of BAB!

As for damage, all of his Sneak Attack dice are d8's, Slashing Grace adds +6 to his dagger (1d4 or 1d3, can't recall), and an additional +1d6 from Precise Strike. That's not including any poisons or enchantments the Rogue may put on the dagger itself.

Looks pretty nasty to me. And that's not including TWF attacks he'll get in the upper levels.

Grand Lodge

Trust me, the Unchained Rogue is everything everyone wanted from the Rogue.

I am building my first Rogue since Beta Playtest because of it's existence.


Technically, you only get +2 from Outflank, and only in specific conditions.


Secret Wizard wrote:
Technically, you only get +2 from Outflank, and only in specific conditions.

Actually, you get +4 total from flanking while using Outflank(+2 flanking bonus, +2 from the feat). To use it, you have to be flanking someone, and your partner also has to have Outflank because it's a teamwork feat. So what? That's not difficult, especially when you have a high Dexterity and class access to Acrobatics.

I dunno. I'll have to think about this Unchained stuff.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Unchained's biggest boons for the Rogue are:

1) Extra feat. Yes, you can get Weapon Finesse at level 2 with a normal Rogue, but this avoids the feat cost. Also, you get Dex to damage at level 3. This is HUGE

2) Debilitating Injury, as mentioned.

3) Skill Unlocks. It really turns Rogues into having some unique abilities outside of combat encounters. Nothing here to break the campaign either, as far as I know (I've heard of some preemptive surgery stuff regarding the heal skill unlock, but that's it).

Unchained Rogue let's the Rogue pick up defensive feats which it definitely needs and still remain combat competent. Utility stuff is just gravy of a well-designed class.

You may be thinking: 'Oh man, so much potential damage on a Sneak Attack full-attack!' Well, that's partially true. But it's probably about equal to any other martial DPR class. Plus, those other classes are much less dependent on full-attacks than TWF Rogue. Getting eighty gillion damage in one full-attack is a bit pointless when things will be dead from the two or three people's one good hit.


Side Question: Does Pharasma have Paladins in her service?


I don't know if she does, but she definitely can.
Paladins have no restrictions on deities besides the "no evil associates" clause, and destroying undead at least could definitely fit with traditional Paladiny-ness.

Also, you can be a Paladin who worships Pharasma without being a "Paladin of Pharasma."


Not a rules question. Flagging for move to Advice board.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Piccolo wrote:
Secret Wizard wrote:
Technically, you only get +2 from Outflank, and only in specific conditions.

Actually, you get +4 total from flanking while using Outflank(+2 flanking bonus, +2 from the feat). To use it, you have to be flanking someone, and your partner also has to have Outflank because it's a teamwork feat. So what? That's not difficult, especially when you have a high Dexterity and class access to Acrobatics.

I dunno. I'll have to think about this Unchained stuff.

For some groups teamwork feats are a great choice and will be used often, but many times they are suggested and people say things like "You want me to give up one of my feats to make you better? No way." Doesn't make much sense, but it happens.

Rogues are melee frontliners built like a divine spellcaster with no spells and worse armor - they are expected to be in the thick of combat with low hp, AC, Fortitude, and attack bonuses compared to any true martial combatant. The flipside is that they have the highest damage boost of any class in the game if they can somehow survive getting into position and land every strike in their full attack. High risk, high reward. Unfortunately the odds are against them, as their attack bonus is so low without allied assistance that they rarely land an attack after the first. That's what the Unchained Rogue fixes with Debilitating Injury - they don't need as much help landing their second or third iteratives.

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