Advice on Playing a 'Knife Master' Archetyped Rogue


Advice

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I am creating a new rogue for a campaign and was looking through my books for archetypes similar to an assassin, focusing on damage and stealth. I found a knife master archetype that seems interesting, but difficult to play correctly. Giving up trapfinding seems harsh, but the increase in dagger sneak attack damage is intriguing to me. What are some feats, ability scores, and/or rogue talents that would highly favor a dagger rogue? As well, I am new to melee rogues in general, and before seeing this archetype, I planned on making a ranged character. Having such low health and armor while in melee range seems like a recipe for disaster. Does anyone have any advice on positioning as a melee-based rogue? Thanks!


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Giving up Trapfinding is harsh? Huh, you must have an interesting game style.

I'd recommend a dex-based rogue. Strength-based has its merits, but at that point you stop playing a rogue and start playing a poor fighter. Max out dex, wear light armor, and hit a bazillion times in a round. I'd recommend a human for the extra feats, though a half-orc can get better saves using alternate traits.

Weapon Finesse is a given. Be an Unchained Rogue and not a regular Rogue, because you get Weapon Finesse and everything else for free, and it's compatible with the archetype. You get Dex to damage, too.

TWF, Improved TWF, and Greater TWF are all on your radar. With Unchained Rogue, Double Slice and Two-Weapon Rend will add your dex to damage instead of strength, which is good. Two-Weapon defense is a trap feat, though, because Dodge does the same thing, except much, much better.

Piranha Strike is an almost certain pick. It's Power Attack for dex-based characters.

Weapon Focus (Dagger) is a good Rogue Talent choice. Deific Obedience (Pharasma) is another good feat that does the same thing, but better.

Improved Critical is always good.

Shadow Strike will make you happy if your GM enforces concealment rules, otherwise skip it.

Circling Mongoose and Canny Tumble looks cool, but it's a really long feat chain for moderate benefit. Dodge is an OK feat, but I wouldn't take it if it wasn't a necessary part of Circling Mongoose. Mobility helps Circling Mongoose and Canny Tumble, but it's also not that great of a feat. Spring Attack is just downright bad, considering its usage.

Whirlwind Attack isn't a prerequisite to anything, but if you have Canny Tumble and Circling Mongoose, it might be cool to have. It's not that useful for how many feats it took to get there, though.

The River Rat trait is pretty good.


first, make sure you're an unchained rogue.

Grand Lodge

Improved Feint for the win!!! Sneak attack every round.

A one level dip makes into Brawler (especially Snakebite Striker) makes it a lot easier, as would Swashbuckler or Mesmerist.

And the new Dirty Fighter feat lets you replace the need for Combat Expertise altogether.


Except improved Feint isn't a combat maneuver so Dirty Fighter doesn't actually do anything for Feinting.

Scarab Sages

And if you would like divine inspiration for your stabbing, Pharasma can help with that.


And Improved Feint sucks because you can't make a full attack and you can't move.

Two Weapon Feint and Improved Two Weapon Feint are what you would want, or Dazzling Display feat chain...but I'm forgetting what's all in it.


Even with the much improved Unchained Rogue there are still lots of "but how do I survive melee & trigger sneak attack" issues for Rogues. There are a lot of partial solutions, but they can be pretty oblique.

Not practical for the Knife Master archetype, but an Even Curve blade or Aldori Dueling Sword can be used as a finesseable weapon while power-attacking 2-handed. This way even if you're not getting sneak attack you're still doing solid damage. It's also more mobility-friendly than dual-wielding.

For extra melee survivability you could try getting the SLA version of Shield via the Major Magic talent, or pick a race with a natural armor bonus. Anything that boosts your saves is also good given the poor Fort and Will saves - a Dwarf with Hardy/Steel Soul or Half-Orc with Sacred Tattoo/Fate's Favored for example.

One strength of the Rogue is that you do get a lot of Rogue Talents, which can be swapped for Ninja Tricks or Combat Feats. This gives you a lot of versatility, and means that taking VMC options might be useful too.


You may or may not be able to take these, depending on whether the GM will allow campaign traits. Also I am assuming this is not for PFS. Here are a few things to consider for a TWF Knife Rogue:

You don't want to give up Trap Finding? Don't:

Trap Finder Campaign Trait wrote:
Forgotten dungeons and ancient tombs have always held an appeal for you, and you’ve never been able to resist the urge to delve into these lost sites in search of knowledge, treasure, or both. You may not have received any formal training in the roguish arts, but you’ve nonetheless become skilled at spotting and disabling hidden traps. The tombs of Wati’s necropolis, just opened for exploration, seem like the perfect place to put your skills to the test. You gain a +1 trait bonus on Disable Device checks, and that skill is always a class skill for you. In addition, you can use Disable Device to disarm magic traps, like a rogue.

You like the TWF style? Be a little better at it:

Serpent Runner Campaign Trait wrote:

You’ve participated in the mock gladiatorial battles and athletic feats at the Serpent’s Run, Magnimar’s grand hippodrome, but the safe nature of those games leaves you bored. Seeking greater thrills and tests of your abilities, you’ve pledged your arms and skill to the local Pathfinder lodge. Choose one of the following benefits to represent the techniques you learned from your time at the Serpent’s Run: •Choose a specific type of armor. When wearing armor of that type, you treat its armor check penalty as if it were –1 lower.

•When fighting with two weapons, the penalty imposed on your primary weapon is reduced by 1.
•You gain a +2 trait bonus on Intimidate checks to demoralize opponents.

You like daggers? This one's totally legal as long as the GM allows traits in the game. Deal more damage:

River Rat wrote:

Requirement(s) Marsh or River

You learned to swim right after you learned to walk. When you were a youth, a gang of river pirates put you to work swimming in nighttime rivers and canals with a dagger between your teeth so you could sever the anchor ropes of merchant vessels. You gain a +1 trait bonus on damage rolls with a dagger and a +1 trait bonus on Swim checks. Swim is always a class skill for you.

Combine River Rat with the above mentioned Circling Mongoose tactic and the Axe to Grind trait so you can have +2 damage to each attack:

Axe to Grind wrote:
There is a fire in your heart that can’t be quenched. You gain a +1 trait bonus on damage against foes who are threatened by only you.

You like debilitating people with your strikes? You might like this feat if the GM allows it:

Flensing Strike wrote:

Your slashing sneak attacks tend to slice away swaths of skin and natural armor.

Prerequisites: Sneak attack +3d6, bleeding sneak attack rogue trick or bleed universal monster ability.

Benefit: When you successfully inflict sneak attack damage on a foe with a slashing weapon, your attack doesn’t go particularly deep, but you do carve away a significant portion of skin and flesh. If this sneak attack inflicts bleed damage, the victim of the sneak attack is sickened by the pain and has its natural armor bonus (if any) reduced by a number of points equal to the number of sneak attack dice you possess. These penalties persist as long as the bleed damage persists. Multiple strikes on the same foe do not stack the bleed damage, but the penalty to natural armor does stack, to a maximum penalty equal to the target’s normal full natural armor score.

This last one would be nice for a more powerful/versatile type of dagger. Again, check with your GM:

Martial Weapon - Hunga Munga wrote:

Statistics

Cost 4 gp Weight 3 lbs.
Damage 1d4 (small), 1d6 (medium); Critical x2; Range 15 ft.; Type P; Special —
Description
Also called a mambele, danisco, goleyo, njiga, or any of many lesser-known names, this three-bladed dagger is intended for throwing but can be used as a melee weapon. Though the basic three-blade design is most common, hunga mungas can take a wide variety of forms.

...

You could also TWF with a Dagger and a Klar. You can use Serpent Runner and Weapon Focus Dagger to break even on your TWF penalty for your primary weapon. Then you can take the Shield Master/Shield Focus feat chain to get some good offensive/defensive skills; to include 0 TWF penalty to your attacks using a shield. (Klar counts as a spiked light shield. Which OBTW makes it a light weapon which is fair game for Weapon Finesse and the UC Rogue's Dex to Damage ability.)

This racial trait will net you a nice saving throw bonus while also granting you proficiency with Klars:

Shoanti Tattoo wrote:

Source Varisia, Birthplace of Legends pg. 6 (Amazon)

Requirement(s) Human - Shoanti
Upon reaching adulthood, you received a tribal tattoo, marking you with the symbols of your quah and totem spirits (see the inside back cover for suggestions and designs for Shoanti tattoos). You gain a +1 trait bonus on saving throws against fear effects. Additionally, you are proficient with earth breakers, klars, and Shoanti bolas.


If you are up for it, I'm a big fan of amateur swashbuckler(dodging panache) or if you have the charisma, dip into swashbuckler for the grit + dodging panache. Helps avoid those full attacks.

Grand Lodge

Claxon wrote:
And Improved Feint sucks because you can't make a full attack and you can't move.

Perhaps not, but a 3rd level of Snakebite Striker will let you Feint as part of a move action.


Kukri will take a little bit to come online (try to get proficiency with a trait), but work great with Weapon Focus > Weapon Finesse (both of which you can get with Talents) > Slashing Grace (Combat feat talent). Great expanded crit range.

Scarab Sages

Backlash3906 wrote:
Kukri will take a little bit to come online (try to get proficiency with a trait), but work great with Weapon Focus > Weapon Finesse (both of which you can get with Talents) > Slashing Grace (Combat feat talent). Great expanded crit range.

Slashing grace is a terrible idea. First of all, it's completely unneeded for an unchained rogue. Secondly, it cannot be used if your are two-weapon fighting.


There is a new spike hilt from the dirty tactics, that puts a knife hidden in a sword. Drawing the knife is a swift action too, no need for things like Quick draw, totally letting you have the ability to pull off that underhanded talent easily.


Disclaimer: Rogues are still not great, bards and investigators are still the best rogue characters with lots of skill points and versatility. A beastmorph vivisectionist is the best "brute" rogue unless you want to go the Master Chymist and be a better vigilante (IMO). Even with Master Chymist I would ask a GM if they would allow it to stack with vivisectionist. OA also has some fun options with Mesmerist for a social rogue or Medium with the trickster spirit.

If you want to play a normal D&D 3.5 rogue, I suggest unchained over core by an unmeasurable amount. An estoc or elven curved blade allows for 1.5 DEX to damage and 13 STR allows for power attack. You will finally deal decent damage. I would also consider taking 4 levels of a full BAB class for some additional combat power - something front ended like Paladin.


Imbicatus wrote:
Backlash3906 wrote:
Kukri will take a little bit to come online (try to get proficiency with a trait), but work great with Weapon Focus > Weapon Finesse (both of which you can get with Talents) > Slashing Grace (Combat feat talent). Great expanded crit range.
Slashing grace is a terrible idea. First of all, it's completely unneeded for an unchained rogue. Secondly, it cannot be used if your are two-weapon fighting.

OP had not replied yet, so I didn't know if unchained was already determined. I missed the 2 weapon part about slashing grace though. Very disappointing. :/

Liberty's Edge

Just wanted to point out that Double Slice does not increase your Dex damage, as seen here. It's also likely that two weapon rend would still do strength damage, as your not rolling an attack roll to deal the damage. It's all part of the "dex to damage should never be as good as str to damage" Paizo has going.

A few things you might want to consider are taking the major magic talent for the Vanish spell, since you can't use the vanish trick without a ki pool. Or you can just get a wand and UMD it. Two weapon feint is going to be better than improved feint for you. As mentioned above, Deific Obedience to Pharasma will offset the penalties for 2 weapon fighting, and stacks with weapon focus (dagger). You may want to consider playing a small race, since the reduction in damage dice from d4 to d3 is negligible, while the +1 to attack and AC are quite useful, just make sure to pump escape artist since you CMB will likely be awful for a melee character.


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If you are interested in a Small race, my advice to you is to take a Goblin. They get -2 Strength and Charisma, but +4 to Dexterity. Move speed is 30, just like Medium sized PC's. You even get a +4 to Ride and Stealth (and another +4 to Stealth because of your size) as well as darkvision (60ft).

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