Polymorph and "activated" items


Rules Questions

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I'm having trouble with this line from polymorph sub school:

Quote:
Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function). Items that require activation cannot be used while you maintain that form.

This line from magic items:

Quote:
To use a magic item, it must be activated, although sometimes activation simply means putting a ring on your finger. Some items, once donned, function constantly.

And this line under use activated item:

Quote:

Use Activated: This type of item simply has to be used in order to activate it. a character has to drink a potion, swing a sword, interpose a shield to deflect a blow in combat, look through a lens, sprinkle dust, wear a ring, or don a hat. Use activation is generally straightforward and self-explanatory.

Many use-activated items are objects that a character wears. Continually functioning items are practically always items that one wears. A few must simply be in the character's possession (meaning on his person). However, some items made for wearing must still be activated.

Which items can be used while polymorphed?


For example do the the following items work when polymorphed?
Bracers of Armor
Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier (all of it's abilities?)
Deliquesant Gloves
Ioun Stones (...and when socketed into a wayfinder?)
Lens of Detection
Cloak of Resistance
Vambraces of Defense (all of the abilities?)
Quick Runner's Shirt?

Why or why not for each?


I hate to say this, but you may be reading into the rules to much. Stick to the polymorph sub school section.

If it provides a constant bonus, yes, otherwise, no. Therefor:
Bracers of Armor yes
Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier (all of it's abilities?) yes for the armor bonus, but no immediate actions to activate
Deliquesant Gloves yes
Ioun Stones (...and when socketed into a wayfinder?) yes for constant bonuses, not for anything that is not a constant bonus
Lens of Detection yes
Cloak of Resistance yes
Vambraces of Defense (all of the abilities?) yes for the armor bonus, but no immediate actions to activate
Quick Runner's Shirt?no, this is not a constant bonus


@DM Livgin: Well I will admit that either I am reading too little into the rules or others are reading too much. But, I can assure you that I am not reading too much into them. See this thread for some history.

Others believe that the gloves wouldn't work because they do not give a constant bonus, only a constant effect. Likewise for the Bracers of Armor due to a clause in the polymorph rules quotes above stating armor bonuses do not carry over.

Otherwise RAW I think I mostly agree with you except for things like the Quick Runner's Shirt as it doesn't seem to take any action to activate or, in fact have any activation at all. The effect seems as constant as it could be.


Hmm, fair point Lune, I've skimmed the other thread.

I'm standing behind the bracers of armor, because RAI and such. Although it is clearly against RAW. So ya, table variation for PFS. If you wanted to follow through in this, you can argue that the Brawling enhancement on your Haramaki does not disappear because it is not part of the armor enhancement bonus.

I think the constant effect argument is just looking for the keyword 'bonus' and making a fuss because it is not there. It is definitely a constant bonus to your character.

My interpretation of the quick runners shirt or other times per day items is that they are a free mental action to activate. With the key component of the argument being that something that can be used a limited number of times per day is not constant.

For a more difficult example: The Shirt of Immolation which automatically bursts into flames when grappling for up to 10 rounds per day.

(P.S.: I am making a PFS Druid/Monk, I'm looking for answers to all these questions too.)


I had heard that Mark Seifter was working on a polymorph FAQ that would answer these kinds of questions. Lets try to keep he thread alive for a FAQ request (hit FAQ, please). In the meantime I will try to summon Mark.

Lets see... I have seen this done before. *Clears throat*
Mark Seifter, Mark Seifter, Mark Seifter!

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

This reminds me of the 3.5 days where people interpret bonus too literally. So they would say things like Nightwalker Sticks and Orange Ioun Stones are not bonuses. Not being a bonus meant they ignore the "two bonuses don't stack" rules. Just buy 20x Orange stones and this lets you cast all your spells at +20 CL right? No

A bonus is or should be anything you'd be happy to have. So constant "happy to haves" you keep. I suppose expect table variance.

Grand Lodge

We were also supposed to get a grapple blog post like a year or two ago...

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

We were supposed to get an Overrun faq in 2009. I'm still holding out hope.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

I thought of a better way to phrase this.

If you believe Deliquesant Gloves do provide a bonus, then they work in polymorphs and two Orange Ioun Stones don't stack.

If you believe Deliquesant Gloves do not provide a bonus, then they won't work in polymorphs and two Orange Ioun Stones will stack.


@James: For my part I agree with you. The problem is that for me the character that this is important for is for PFS. While I would certainly have a preference to which way this were ruled I would rather have a ruling than not regardless of how it is ruled. I would rather be able to plan for certain purchases without the looming threat of "table variation". Or much worse buy and equip something I had thought there was no question on only to have to deal with unexpected table variation.

For now could you please just hit FAQ?

@Claudekennilol: One thing at a time. Does that have its own thread yet?

Grand Lodge

Lune wrote:

@James: For my part I agree with you. The problem is that for me the character that this is important for is for PFS. While I would certainly have a preference to which way this were ruled I would rather have a ruling than not regardless of how it is ruled. I would rather be able to plan for certain purchases without the looming threat of "table variation". Or much worse buy and equip something I had thought there was no question on only to have to deal with unexpected table variation.

For now could you please just hit FAQ?

@Claudekennilol: One thing at a time. Does that have its own thread yet?

Current thread? Not that I've seen. I just meant "don't hold your breath because you heard a dev was going to post something that you wanted clarified." Also @James, I would love an overrun FAQ. As to the main point, I pretty much agree with everyone here how it works. But I've FAQ'd it so hopefully it can be codified and cleared up for the masses.


Thanx, Claudekennilol. :)


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The Bracers of Armor would not remain active because they provide an armor bonus.

Quote:
Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function).


James Risner wrote:

This reminds me of the 3.5 days where people interpret bonus too literally. So they would say things like Nightwalker Sticks and Orange Ioun Stones are not bonuses. Not being a bonus meant they ignore the "two bonuses don't stack" rules. Just buy 20x Orange stones and this lets you cast all your spells at +20 CL right? No

A bonus is or should be anything you'd be happy to have. So constant "happy to haves" you keep. I suppose expect table variance.

Your definition of Bonus and the games definition, definitely do not match.

As for the ioun stone, that they aren't additive could be covered under multiple magical effects from same source. You may have 20 ioun Stones, but that just means you have 20 +1 caster level effects overlapping.


Skylancer4: I hoped you would stop by. :)

I think you also had some items you were unsure about. If I recall correctly it was ioun stones, was it not?

Did you have an opinion on the gloves?

I know this is a topic you have weighed in on several times. Mind hitting FAQ?


James Risner wrote:

I thought of a better way to phrase this.

If you believe Deliquesant Gloves do provide a bonus, then they work in polymorphs and two Orange Ioun Stones don't stack.

If you believe Deliquesant Gloves do not provide a bonus, then they won't work in polymorphs and two Orange Ioun Stones will stack.

The deliquescent gloves are use-activated and would not work when polymorphed. Ioun stones do not stack because bonuses (typed or not) from the same source don't stack. Otherwise you have an extremely broken item.


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Lune wrote:

Skylancer4: I hoped you would stop by. :)

I think you also had some items you were unsure about. If I recall correctly it was ioun stones, was it not?

Did you have an opinion on the gloves?

I know this is a topic you have weighed in on several times. Mind hitting FAQ?

Ioun Stones weren't something I was unsure of, more we had people stating they would merge when polymorphed and continue to provide effects. I'm of the opinion they would still provide effects but would not merge into your form, just stay floating over your head. You aren't touching them, they aren't taking up a slot on your body, but flying willy nilly around your head.

The gloves I believe are use activated so wouldn't continue to function after polymorphed.


Skylancer4 wrote:
Lune wrote:

Skylancer4: I hoped you would stop by. :)

I think you also had some items you were unsure about. If I recall correctly it was ioun stones, was it not?

Did you have an opinion on the gloves?

I know this is a topic you have weighed in on several times. Mind hitting FAQ?

Ioun Stones weren't something I was unsure of, more we had people stating they would merge when polymorphed and continue to provide effects. I'm of the opinion they would still provide effects but would not merge into your form, just stay floating over your head. You aren't touching them, they aren't taking up a slot on your body, but flying willy nilly around your head.

The gloves I believe are use activated so wouldn't continue to function after polymorphed.

Agreed. With the caveat that embedded stones would remain embedded and continue to work.


And Ioun Stones in a Wayfinder would continue to work?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

Skylancer4 and I disagree on the point about Ioun Stones. As they are part of your gear and gear merges they would merge like any other piece of gear.

It is one of those arguments that makes sense from both sides. So I would recommend talking to your GM about it and getting a ruling from them to make it clear ahead of time.


What about +1 Shadow Slick Rallying Bracers of Armor?
Gloves of Dueling?
Shirt of Immolation?


Anything that requires an action (even a free action) to use would be an activated item and thus not available.

That should cover a majority of items, but there are probably things that would need to be reviewed on a case by case basis.


Claxon: That was in response to which item?


Gloves of Dueling should work.
Shift of Immolation is tricky...even though it's not an action it's not a constant effect so I would say no.
Bracers of Armor with enchants - Shadow, Slick, and Rallying should function I think, but the armor bonus wouldn't.


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Skylancer4: In the other thread you had mentioned that you do not believe that Monk's Robes or Gloves of Dueling would work due to your interpretation of the word "bonus". (A term that I could not find defined at all anywhere in the rules, period.) Do you still believe that?

In that thread B. A. Robards-Debardot had made the point that in the Using Magic Items section it states:

Quote:
To use a magic item, it must be activated, although sometimes activation simply means putting a ring on your finger.

So by the strictest reading of the rules all magic items are activated thus none can be used while polymorphed.

My point here is that do I really need to deal with table variation to the degree of "no magic items work" on one end and "everything works that gives a constant benefit of any type" on the other end? That is an awful lot of table variation. I would prefer at least a little bit of clarity prior to the purchase of items.


Claxon: Your judgements are the same as mine. But for others it isn't clear at all.

For the benefit of everyone, please just hit FAQ. /bow Thank you.


Alright, this section of rules suffers from poor wording. There's a lot of ways it can be read, but I would suggest the following (which are pretty much in agreement with DM Livgin):

"Items that require activation cannot be used while you maintain that form."
This is referring to any item which requires an action to activate. This isn't intended to include use-activated items.

Examples: The Quickrunner's Shirt requires a swift action and thus can't be used while melded. The Deliquescent Gloves have no associated activation action and thus work. The Jingasa's constant ability works, but its activated ability doesn't.

"with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function"

This is actually referring to bonuses acquired from physical armor and shields, not the mechanical "armor bonus" and "shield bonus". Any magical properties on a melded armor or shield cease to function, regardless of what type of effect they're giving (even continuous). On the other hand, Bracers of Armor will continue to grant their bonus as they are not a physical piece of armor.

------

In any case, please remember that you can also don and wear magic items after you've polymorphed. While again victim to poor wording, I believe the restriction on magic item use is referring to melded magic items. You could, in theory, make use of un-melded items normally. Keep in mind that most activated items still require a spoken command word to activate, so this isn't as easy as it first sounds.


Taenia wrote:

Skylancer4 and I disagree on the point about Ioun Stones. As they are part of your gear and gear merges they would merge like any other piece of gear.

It is one of those arguments that makes sense from both sides. So I would recommend talking to your GM about it and getting a ruling from them to make it clear ahead of time.

But they are genuinely unlike any other piece of "gear". They aren't worn or even attached to the character. Just someplace in their "space" floating around. It would be like saying... You drop an item on the ground as a free action and polymorph, then insist the item changed shape because it is "yours" even though it is laying on the ground.

Or better yet, the wagon you are riding on merges because you bought it...


Lune wrote:

Skylancer4: In the other thread you had mentioned that you do not believe that Monk's Robes or Gloves of Dueling would work due to your interpretation of the word "bonus". (A term that I could not find defined at all anywhere in the rules, period.) Do you still believe that?

In that thread B. A. Robards-Debardot had made the point that in the Using Magic Items section it states:

Quote:
To use a magic item, it must be activated, although sometimes activation simply means putting a ring on your finger.

So by the strictest reading of the rules all magic items are activated thus none can be used while polymorphed.

My point here is that do I really need to deal with table variation to the degree of "no magic items work" on one end and "everything works that gives a constant benefit of any type" on the other end? That is an awful lot of table variation. I would prefer at least a little bit of clarity prior to the purchase of items.

You are 100% incorrect on this, you should really check the book before you state something like that (core book page 11). Punch the term into the PRD as well, and you get:

PRD's Definition of Bonus wrote:
Bonus : Bonuses are numerical values that are added to checks and statistical scores. Most bonuses have a type, and as a general rule, bonuses of the same type are not cumulative (do not “stack”)—only the greater bonus granted applies.

The game has a specific definition of Bonus, which is why I believe what I do on the subject. It has nothing to do with "interpretation" and everything to do with the written rules of the game. If someone can show me where the actual rules state that a Bonus is any beneficial effect a character has, I'll be happy to reconsider my stance. I have looked, and not found anything to that effect however.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Skylancer4 wrote:
Your definition of Bonus and the games definition, definitely do not match..

They don't. But my definition of Bonus matched the 3.5 FAQ definition which said that the "bonus" from the Nightwalker stocks that granted additional turns didn't stack.

Which leads us to understand that the book definition isn't all inclusive. Interestingly this matches the temporary ability bonus FAQ in Pathfinder which essentially says "that section isn't all inclusive".


Skylancer4 wrote:
You are 100% incorrect on this, you should really check the book before you state something like that (core book page 11). Punch the term into the PRD as well, and you get:

How, exactly am I 100% wrong on that? What I said was that bonus wasn't "A term that I could not find defined at all anywhere in the rules, period." That is true. I couldn't. I didn't say one didn't exist.

For reference, I searched here. I had not searched the PRD. However, since you have done the footwork on that I say we use it. :)

So, using the definition that you just quoted why exactly do you believe that Monk's Robes and Gloves of Dueling do not work? Do they not both give "numerical values that are added to checks and statistical scores"?


Weapon training and classes levels aren't really checks or statistical scores. They are abilities (weapon training; class ability) or summations of abilities (class level), that happen to have numbers involved for easy of use and reference as a player.

Treating your level as 4 higher for purposes of an ability's result, isn't the same as, let's say, +4 to caster level for an SR check. It can be written in short hand the same way, but that doesn't mean the two are interchangeable mechanically. They are fundamentally different concepts.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

All I can say is Skylancer4, we will see table variance on what the rules say and mean between you and I as a GM.


Skylabcer4: Well, that is certainly a fine opinion to have but is there any support within the rules for use of that interpretation of the definition of bonus? As I asked,"Do they not both give "numerical values that are added to checks and statistical scores"?" That IS, after all, the definition you are going with.


Applying only the rules definition of a word to every usage in a book (in this case 'Bonus') is not a good idea.

Regardless of YOUR opinion on it, the final call is the GMs.

That being said, I'm on the side of things that says Ioun stones aren't affected by the owner changing shape...

Maybe that's a houserule, but it must makes sense IMO.


alexd1976: Regardless of YOUR opinion on it the final call is an official ruling, not a single GM's personal opinion.

As this is for PFS and I would rather not have to deal with table variation I would prefer a ruling on it. Especially before purchasing items that may not work. You could say I have a dog in this race... well actually a fox. ;)

I am fine with whatever ruling is made, I just want to know. As do others apparently as opinions tend to vary. Please hit FAQ.


Byakko wrote:

"with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function"

This is actually referring to bonuses acquired from physical armor and shields, not the mechanical "armor bonus" and "shield bonus". Any magical properties on a melded armor or shield cease to function, regardless of what type of effect they're giving (even continuous). On the other hand, Bracers of Armor will continue to grant their bonus as they are not a physical piece of armor.

I'd like to see some evidence to support this. If it meant bonuses from armor and shields as opposed to armor bonuses and shield bonuses, which are completely different, it needs to state as such. Since it says "armor and shield bonuses" I'm inclined to believe it is referring to typed bonuses (+2 shield bonus, +4 armor bonus, and so on) and not any bonuses from armors and shields.

Further evidence to support this includes the fact that armor bonuses don't stack. Why should armor bonuses from bracers of armor still apply when armor bonuses from a chain shirt are ignored? If we use your definition then a wizard wearing a mithral shirt and bracers of armor would retain the armor bonus from the bracers but not the shirt when polymorphed. That same wizard, when not polymorphed, would be getting an AC bonus from his mithral shirt and not his bracers of armor.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Bracers of Armor only work if they have the wild enchantment, just as per the rule for regular armor.


el cuervo: While this is far from official I can tell you there is at least one Dev that wants Bracers of Armor to work while polymorphed. I'm not saying who as it was said in private conversation and it wouldn't matter anyway as there is a big difference between even a Dev stating personal opinion an stating a hard ruling.


LazarX: Wild only works with Wildshape specifically. Not with other forms of polymorphing.


el cuervo:

That's why I stated that my comments were suggestions and that the written text is rather poorly worded.

It is my opinion that the intent is for armor and shields not to give benefits while melded. I fully admit that the other way of reading it is perfectly valid and that I don't have any strong proof to support my version, other than general game balance and aesthetics.

The reason I feel it makes sense for chainmail to cease to function and bracers of armor to continue to work while melded is because chainmail's protection derives from being a physical layer of metal, whereas the bracers are providing a magical barrier which is not related to its actual physical construction or coverage.


Lune wrote:
Skylabcer4: Well, that is certainly a fine opinion to have but is there any support within the rules for use of that interpretation of the definition of bonus? As I asked,"Do they not both give "numerical values that are added to checks and statistical scores"?" That IS, after all, the definition you are going with.

The answer to your question, using the quote strictly, is no. They aren't "checks" (skill or attribute checks being the norm) or "statistical scores" (Attributes, Combat Statics)

For an idea of what "Statistics" are mechanically, look at a monster's Stat Block. There is a section called Statistics amusingly enough...

It covers Attributes, BAB, CMB, CMD, Feats, Skills. Languages are listed under it. There is also the Special Quality which may or may not be part of it (gear is listed below as well). Incidentally it isn't where Weapon Training or the pertinent Monk's abilities are listed.

The game seems to have its own narrow and predefined view of what Statistics are, as published.


So you are choosing to define "statistical scores" as the most narrow interpretation of anything that is in the "statistics" section of a monster's stat block?

Isn't that akin to equating Racial Traits to Alternate Racial Traits?

That theory has so many holes it puts a sieve to shame. Honestly... the game doesn't define "statistical scores". I'm going pro-dictionary on this.

The game doesn't "seems to have its own narrow and predefined view of what [statistical scores]* are". You do.

*(Cleaned that up for you. A PC's "statistical scores" is not the same as the "statistics" block in a monster's stat block.)


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Skylancer4: Honestly, I value your input here as you seem to have the most narrow view of what gear continues to be effective when you polymorph. However, if you aren't even going to stick with the rules quotes you are using to defend your point of view then I don't know how much value you can add to the conversation. I specifically chose to use the definition you were going with and you are grasping at straws at this point trying to put your own personal spin on how you choose to define "checks" and "statistical scores".

Look, I can nit-pick a rule with the best of them but when I am defending my opinion I will back it up with actual rules. If there is a lack of rules to define something I will just admit that and then share what my personal opinion is on what the intended definition is and why. This is one of those cases. Hence the FAQ. It is not clearly defined. Until it is no one should be stating opinion as fact.


Forget the bit about magic items or how use-activated items are defined. The relevant text is within the specific rules for the polymorph subschool, and it seems pretty cut and dry:

Polymorph wrote:

...

In addition to these benefits, you gain any of the natural attacks of the base creature, including proficiency in those attacks. These attacks are based on your base attack bonus, modified by your Strength or Dexterity as appropriate, and use your Strength modifier for determining damage bonuses.

If a polymorph spell causes you to change size, apply the size modifiers appropriately, changing your armor class, attack bonus, Combat Maneuver Bonus, and Stealth skill modifiers. Your ability scores are not modified by this change unless noted by the spell.

Unless otherwise noted, polymorph spells cannot be used to change into specific individuals. Although many of the fine details can be controlled, your appearance is always that of a generic member of that creature's type. Polymorph spells cannot be used to assume the form of a creature with a template or an advanced version of a creature.

When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body. Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function). Items that require activation cannot be used while you maintain that form. While in such a form, you cannot cast any spells that require material components (unless you have the Eschew Materials or Natural Spell feat), and can only cast spells with somatic or verbal components if the form you choose has the capability to make such movements or speak, such as a dragon. Other polymorph spells might be subject to this restriction as well, if they change you into a form that is unlike your original form (subject to GM discretion). If your new form does not cause your equipment to meld into your form, the equipment resizes to match your new size.

While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form. You also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features (such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function. While most of these should be obvious, the GM is the final arbiter of what abilities depend on form and are lost when a new form is assumed. Your new form might restore a number of these abilities if they are possessed by the new form.

...

The specific text of the subschool description overrides the general use-activated items text and magic items text. The subschool specifically states:

- Items that provide constant (passive) bonuses continue to work (ex: ring of protection, orange ioun stone, cloak of resistance)
- Items that provide constant (passive) armor or shield bonuses do not provide those bonuses specifically but may apply other constant (passive) bonuses
- Items that require an activation do not work (whether activated by swinging a sword, touching an enemy with a glove, speaking a command word -- another way of thinking about it is "active" effects as opposed to "passive" effects)
- All gear is melded with the body. The text does not say gear worn, it says all gear, so even ioun stones that float around your head and aren't technically worn still meld because they are part of your gear.

The Concordance

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^People disagree on what the term "constant bonuses" means or should mean.

And I'd like a clarification on whether an item that provides a constant bonus in addition to an activated effect (e.g. Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier) is turned off completely because of its activated effect and regardless of its constant bonus. (I'm really hating that tricky "and" in the passage.)


ShieldLawrence wrote:

^People disagree on what the term "constant bonuses" means or should mean.

And I'd like a clarification on whether an item that provides a constant bonus in addition to an activated effect (e.g. Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier) is turned off completely because of its activated effect and regardless of its constant bonus. (I'm really hating that tricky "and" in the passage.)

I think the question of the jingasa is also pretty cut and dry. You would retain the luck bonus to AC. You would also be able to use the jingasa's ability to negate a crit/sneak attack, because that is not use activated (it is a passive bonus that protects from crit/sneak).

On the other hand, you could see it being use activated, where the 'use' is the attack that triggers the function, or even possibly the choice of taking the immediate action. I think this item in particular is debatable, but this is a problem with the item, not with the polymorph subschool, and for this particular item I would expect table variation.

Then again, if we are using the strict RAW definition of bonus, you would only retain the AC bonus from the jingasa and not the other benefit, because that benefit isn't by definition a bonus.

Though I am loath to consider intent in the rules forum, I think with the jingasa the intent is clear: it is a magical item intended to magically protect from crit/sneak attack damage. Since that itself is a passive bonus (that must be acted upon to gain the advantage, even if it's an automatic immediate action and success), I think the intent would be that the magic from the jingasa still protects you from crit/sneak attack once per day even while polymorphed.

As for what a constant bonus is, in general the best method for solving these types of situations is to use the broadest interpretation that makes sense. In this case, that would be all items that provide an effect simply by wearing them and does not require any other sort of action to gain the benefit of the effect.

To clarify, here is how the logic works out, at least to my understanding.

- Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function).

This is saying that if an item provides a constant bonus and it does not need to be activated to provide that constant bonus, the bonus still functions (with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function).

- Items that require activation cannot be used while you maintain that form.

This is saying you cannot use the item if it requires activation, saying nothing about other bonuses it may provide that are constant and that may still continue to function. Since you do not need to use the item (only have it equipped) to gain the constant bonus, the constant bonus still functions.


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el cuervo: That is my understanding as well. But, as you can see, some other people have their own understanding that in many cases has just as much support within the rules. I believe clarification is needed here.

Also, the part you quoted and bolded above is part of my initial post. At least the relevant parts.

Shadow Lodge

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I am so glad I don't play PFS right now because I find this thread terribly confusing.

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