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Hiho,
I am currently playing a male witch. I now need to level up. I am not sure what to do.
Sucio
Male Human Witch 2
CN medium humanoid (human)
Init +8, Perception +3
Defense
AC 12 (16: Mage Armor), Touch 12
hp 15
Fort +2, Ref +2 Will: +4
offense
Speed: 30 ft
Melee: Dagger (1d4-1)
Hexes (at will, DC 15)
Slumber: Fall asleep for 2 rounds (Will)
Evil Eye: -2 to AC, ability, attack, saving or skill (Will)
Cackle: Extra round for agony, charm, evil eye, fortune, misfortune
Fortune: Allows allies to re-roll one d20 per round, must be announce before roll
Skills
Intimidate: 9
Knowledege Arcana 9, History: 8, Nature: 8, Local 5 Religion 5
Spellcraft: 9
Perception: 3
(Demoralize DC equal to 10 + the target’s Hit Dice + the target’s Wisdom modifier. 1 round shaken +1 round for every 5 by which the dc is beaten)
Statistics
Str 9, Dex 14 Con 14 Int 19 Wis 12 Cha 7
Base Atk +1
Feats Extra Hex, Extra Hex
Traits: Bruising Intellect (Int for intimidate, class skill)
Reactionary (+2 Init)
Languages: Common, Elven, Gnome, Goblin, Orc
Familiar
Greensting Scorpion ( Init +4)
Spells known: 0 - all (DC 14), 1 - Beguiling Gift, Cause Fear, Cure Light
Wounds, Detect Secret Doors, Ear-piercing scream, Fumbletongue,
Piecebond, Snowball
I am considering to get another level as witch, use the feat to get the Prehensile Hair hex, so I can deliver touch spells with reach. This would allow me to attack undead using cure spells, chill touch, etc.
I'd also get access to 2nd level witch spells. Ref and Fort saves would go up by 1.
I am also looking into other classes. Taking a dip into fighter would allow me to take Point-Blank Shot and Precise Shot, BAB +1 so I could become a better wand slinger.
Taking a dip into cleric would give me some spells against undead, better buffing, channeling. True Strike (luck domain) would also be a nice addition. (But taking Chaos would fit better with the witch concept, I guess). Problematic is my not so ideal WIS score *sigh*
(Reading through the cleric domains... there is some serious style in these domains)
Hunter would be nice due to two more knowledge class skills, the animal companion and some other stuff I consider cool, but maybe bot that practical.
Bard for the knowledge class skills and bardic knowledge.
For the same reason investigator sounds awesome. Getting all knowledge skills as class skills, and get 1d6 bonus to knowledge, linguistics and spellcraft sounds pretty awesome.. :)
Since I want this char to be a "know it all" the skills and class skills are really interesting.
I am not sure how I my saves are changing, when I take a level in another class. Can I simply add the first level saves to my current saves?
Any ideas what I should do?
Right now,I am mainly considering witch, investigator and cleric, because I kinda like the idea ... fighter on the other hand gives me the biggest boost, allowing me to get +2 on my typical attacks and getting rid of the -4 malus for shooting into melee.
I am also open for other suggestions.
What are your ideas?
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Rule 1 of character progression: If you are playing a full caster never multiclass. It isn't worth it, ever.
Stay as a witch.
Ditto what Doomed Hero said. None of the things you listed are worth giving up your higher-level spells, hexes, hex DC progression, etc. Multi-classing full spellcasters is something you should do only with lots of advanced planning, not on a whim to pick up a couple of first-level abilities.
But yes, when you multiclass, you add the base saves of both classes for whatever levels you have. So a Witch 2/Cleric 1 would have +3 Will saves from Witch, and +2 from Cleric.
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Stay as a witch. Full Caster dips should only be done with careful planning and forethought, with a specific goal in mind for the dip and the build planned out from level 1. If you just dip because you aren't sure what you want to do, you will lower your effectiveness and make your higher levels much less fun to play.
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What specifically are you shooting into melee? The only thing I see on your sheet that requires an attack roll is snowball and it's touch. With your +8 Initiative, you should be able to snowball something before it engages in melee.
For undead, buy some holy water. It's only 2d4, but it's a ranged touch and will be a good fallback option. Try to save up 5050 gold to buy a Quarterstaff of Entwined Serpents. This will give you an auto hit damage source for things you can't hex or are in melee.
Dealing damage is only one way to win, and often not the most effective way. Instead of thinking of way to deal damage look for way to improve your chance of winning. If you have not read it read Treanmonks guide to wizards. I know you are playing a witch, but a lot of the advice in it applies equally well to witches.
Witches have a few direct damage spells, but they do have them. Both Burning hands and snowball are both 1st level witch spells. Cure light wounds can also be used to damage undead so you have options. Witches also have the summon monster line of spells so you could easily just summon things to fight for you.
You should also being using your spells to aid your party both directly and indirectly. Spells like enlarge person and mage armor can make your party much more effective. Web is also an incredibly useful spell and you get that next level. Treantmonks guide will give you the idea of what you should be doing.
The last thing to keep in mind is that 1st level spells are pretty weak. It may seem like magic is not that powerful especially when you watch the barbarian kill thing with ease. As a full 9th level caster you start of weaker than other characters, but quickly gain more power. Around 5th level you will really stat to come into your own. Anything that delays that progression weaken your character.
My problems at the moment are, that I cannot deal damage due to my low attack bonus (esp. when shooting into melee) and when facing undead or other creatures with either good WILL saves or which are immune to mind effecting effects.Any ideas how I could get rid of these problems?
At 3rd-level, you can get control and debuff spells like web and glitterdust, which both work great against undead. Against opponents who won't fall for your regular schtick, switch to a support role by casting enlarge person on the big fighter, cackling your fortune hex, or running around with a cure wand patching people up. You'll get a lot more options as you level, but at low-levels, casters have to figure out how to get the most mileage out of their limited resources.
BTW, what is your patron? I don't see it in your stats, and none of your spells known are patron spells that I know of.
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I've chosen time as a patron.
Right now I play as a buffer / debuffer.
But cackling all the time (after the first encounter) to maintain the buff has serious drawbacks. Some GMs decide that it spoils all perception (listen) checks, attracts lots of monsters when dungeon crawling, etc.
So, buffing isn't fun, due to the mechanics of the class.
Debuffing doesn't work against certain creature types.
Immobalizing is pretty pointless, if another party member simply kills the enemy in a single round or two. If the enemy is out of reach, there is almost nothing I can do.
So, I'd like to have some offensive options. I know that I can do pretty cool stuff in some circumstances. But I'd like to have more options.
That's why I was looking into other classes to give me the ability to buff w/o serious drawbacks, allow me to deal damage if I have no better option, or give some other utility.
Disclaimer: Missed the PFS part, some of these archetypes may not be valid (IIRC most of the Gun Ones, such as Trophy Hunter and Picaroon)!
Oh don't listen to these party poopers, you can totally dip as a caster... for a price. If you want a more physically oriented Witch (at the cost of your Hex DCs and scaling) you can easily dip a level of the following:
[Only Full BAB incoming]
Barbarian (alignment sort of depending)
- Nets Rage a chunk of times per day
- Fast Movement
- +2 Fortitude
Archetypes:
- Drunken Brute can allow you to spend booze instead of Rage Rounds
- Urban Barb can allow you to play with Dex-Rage
Fighter
- Bonus combat feat
- +2 Fortitude
Archetypes:
- Unbreakable nets you Diehard and Endurance
- Lore Warden will get you 2 extra skill points if you just want the feat
Paladin (alignment depending)
- Smite 1/day, won't do much damage but still can bypass DR
- Aura of good
- Detect Evil
- +2 Fortitude and Will
Archetypes:
- Divine Hunter nets you Precise Shot for Heavy Armor
- Holy Tactician gives you a mini Inspire on evil targets you hit (Cha depending)
- Sacred Shield gives a fairly strong damage reducer for allies
Ranger
- Favored enemy (Huuuuumannnn!?)
- Track + Wild Empathy
- +2 Fortitude and Reflex
Archetypes:
- Divine Tracker can net you a deity weapon (may be exotic)
- Freebooter trades in Favored Enemy for a targeted +1/+1 for allies attacking a specific target
- Trophy Hunter Improved Tracking can track HP
- Trapper nets you Trapfinding (at the cost of Wands for Ranger Spells)
- Warden can net you an early Favored Terrain
- Wild Hunter nets you a temporary Animal Focus (as Hunter)
- Wild Stalker gets you Low-Light vision or improves it
Cavalier
- Bonus teamwork feat and Tactician
- Some skills from Order
- Challenge 1/day (and Order bonus)
- Mount
- +2 Fortitude
Archetypes:
- Castellan trades Mount for a weird tactical advantage thinger
- Daring Champion nets you Weapon Finesse instead of Mount
- Gendarme can get you Power Attack instead of a Teamwork Feat
- Standard Bearer trades Mount for Banner early
Bloodrager
- Bloodline power (bad CHA but some are decent still)
- Rage
- Fast Movement
- +2 Fortitude
Archetypes:
- Blood Conduit nets you Improved Maneuver feats
Slayer
- Studied target (Move action)
- Track
- +2 Fortitude and Reflex
Archetypes:
- Cleaner nets you Deceitful as a bonus feat
- Cutthroat nets you a small bonus to Acrobatics, Climb or K: Local
- Pureblade gets Immediate action study against Aberrations
- Vanguard nets you +1 Initiative
Swashbuckler
- Deeds (Parry and Riposte!)
- Panache (the lack of Cha might hurt but there's always Extra Panache)
- Finesse (free Weapon Finesse)
- +2 Reflex
Archetypes:
- Inspired Blade uses Cha and Int for Panache, only restores on Rapier hits though. Also grants you Weapon Focus for Rapier and Weapon Finesse ONLY for Rapier
- Mouser grants Underfoot Assault deed if you're suicidal on a Witch
- Picaroon allows you to ignore Pre-reqs for TWF and WF
Then proceed to take a few more levels of Witch, following it up with the poor forgotten Eldritch Knight. The upside is you gain a lot more health per level, some bonus combat feats (including Fighter only) and effectively end up 3/4 BAB (though you play catch up for a bit). The downsides are that you stunt your casting a little, your Hexes stop scaling upward, you have to copy your own spells into your Familiar each level up, and you stop getting Patron spells.
My problems at the moment are, that I cannot deal damage due to my low attack bonus (esp. when shooting into melee) and when facing undead or other creatures with either good WILL saves or which are immune to mind effecting effects.Any ideas how I could get rid of these problems?
The pain of levels 1-2 are made up for in the glory of levels 5-20. As is typical with casters, first and second level spells will have less overall effect than the raging barbarian, but then you start getting ridiculous.
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Right now, I see 3 options for me:
1 - Witch
Level 2 spells are pretty nice, but those I like require either an attack roll (not a good idea), or a touch attack. So I could your the lvl 3 feat to use my hair to deliver touch attacks (in one fight, since I have to use it in one minute increments, and I only have one minute at lvl 3)
2 - Fighter
Bonus feat + lvl 3 feat: My ranged attacks would raise by two (or 6, since I wouldn't get that -4 malus anymore), but only a few skill points
3 - Investigator
I really like the skill bonus I'd get.
So many class skills, and the +1d6 to the skills I am going to use a lot, +1d6 to other skills a couple of times per day sounds awesome. I could also get shield and true strike as an extract.
I think I'll stay a witch.
Any suggestions as what to do with my lvl 3 feat? Grab another hex (prehensile hair) or something else? Diffreent feat? different hex?
Any items I could use to get some oumpf? I think the next scenario is a undead heavy dungeon crawl again, and I'd like to be more useful this time.
Right now, I see 3 options for me:
1 - Witch
Level 2 spells are pretty nice, but those I like require either an attack roll (not a good idea), or a touch attack. So I could your the lvl 3 feat to use my hair to deliver touch attacks (in one fight, since I have to use it in one minute increments, and I only have one minute at lvl 3)
You get one minute of hair use per level. At level three, by my math, that comes out to three minutes.
That said, if you want to add to your anti-undead weaponry I would go with Extra Hex: Misfortune. Add Web and Glitterdust to your daily spell preparations and go to town.
Misfortune + Cackle gives you something to do every round. If your team runs into a particularly tough baddy or a big group then you can fire off one of your control spells to turn the tide.
Keep in mind you need to spend a standard action to activate your hair, unless you preempt it.
Mostly you need to stop thinking about doing damage and start thinking about controlling your enemies via spells like glitterdust, web and/or buffing your friends with spells like enlarge person.
If you can't enjoy being a support/disable caster (which is ultimately what witches are), taking one level in another class isn't going to fix your issues. I would probably re-roll instead.
One of your spells is snowball. This is a ranged touch attack. With your DEX being 14 this gives you a +3 against the opponents touch AC. This usually means that all the get is their 10 + DEX bonus for AC. Most creatures that are level appropriate usually have 12 or less for a touch AC. You also have an Int of +8 which means you will probably go first if this is the case you are going against their flat footed touch AC which will probably be 10. Since you go first the chances are that they are not in melee with anyone so you don’t have to worry about the -4 for firing into a melee. This give you a 65% chance to hit. You will do an average of 10.5 points of damage.
You also put everything into INT which I can understand. This is a good long term strategy but it is costing you now. I would have probably put the INT to 18 starting left the WIS at 10 and bumped up the DEX to 16. This would have given you a +1 AC, +1 Reflex save, +1 to initiative and +1 to hit with ranged attack.
You can also pick up flurry of snowballs for one of your second level spells. It does 4d6 points of damage in a cone.
But Blakmane is right your character is a support/disable based character and there is only so much you can do about it.
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I like playing support.
The problem is, that it seems pretty hard to pull off with the witch.
Fortune can be cast once per day / person. In theory, I could cackle all day, in practice, this does get penalised by the GM (perception checks for sounds, attracting attention, etc).
It also hinders me, because I am basically "staggered" because I have to use one move action each round to cackle...
Also, so far Fortune doesn't seem to get used often by the other players.
The reason I am looking for Damage is not that I want to do damage, but that I have almost no option in a fight against undead.
Take Misfortune for example, and let's say I face an undead creature of 2 HD. Which is "below me" in level.
Misfortune works against WILL, like most other hexes.
A Ghast hast a +7 Will save. The DC of my Misfortune would be 10 + ( 3 / 2 ) + 4 = 15. So, on a roll of 8 or better, my Misfortune hex fails.
A Ghul has +8 Fort and +7 Will. A mummy Will +8.
And hexes are one time use/ person.
Normally I could lower saves using evil eye. But Damn! That's mind affecting, so undead creatures are immune. Which rules out Ill Omen as well.
And even if Misfortune works... what am I supposed to do the next round (besides cackling)? I could use a wand, but that means firing into melee.
I could use my high ini to buff the meat shield.
Enlarge Person comes up often, but so far that has always lead to more problems ( 5ft passageways, low ceilings..)
I do have a really limited number of spells/ day (5,3,2) and I need to prepare in advance. So I am the "scrolls and wand guy" anyway, because utility is great, but it has to come from an item.
I am pretty happy with my role in a lot of situations. But I really suck in certain situations. And I want options for these.
For undead cure light/medium/serious wounds can be your friend, but the idea of making melee touch attacks is off putting to an armorless caster. Luckily Spectral Hand is on the witch spell list, so grab a wand of it and make your melee touch attacks from across the battlefield. This also works for the vast catalog of melee touching debuffs that the witch has. Chill Touch, for instance, is also great against undead as it can make them run away! Stricken Heart for 2d6 negative energy + staggered, Touch of Bloodletting to make something exhausted, Touch of Idiocy to make life suck for an enemy caster, the ever classic Bestow Curse, the absolutely lovely golem off-switch Disable Construct, and many more.
My witch does something similar by being a Cartomancer, so she throws cards instead of using Spectral Hand, but the principle is the same. And she once single handedly prevented a TPK in PFS against a ghoul with class levels when everyone else in the party was unconscious, subject to hold person, or hit by Blindness. And all my witch had at her disposal was her way of delivering melee touch attacks at range and a Cure Light Wounds wand.
The main problem with your character is his level. Many of the best strategies are more effective at higher levels. Summoning creatures works very well but at your level they don’t last long enough to be effective. The same is true with most of the direct damage spells. This is precisely the reason you should not multiclass. Until you get higher level spells and a higher caster level to back them up it will be difficult.
One witch spell that works very well against undead is enlarge person. Cast it on the barbarian and let him do all the work. Even a wand of enlarge person would be effective. It last 1 minute per level and chances are most battles are not going to last over a minute or two.
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Thanks for the advice.
I really appreciate it.
Ok, I'll go for fortune/ misfortune, get rid of my prehensile hair idea and use spectral hand instead.
[quote=
Rerednaw said]QHis main go to hex is Fortune+Cackle for buffing
How do you do this? Do you cackle all the time after the first time you use the hex? How do you deal with it in social encounters? How do you deal with it in the 2nd encounter, since you're basically staggered?