Interest Check: Epic RotRL


Recruitment

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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

I've mentioned this vaguely elsewhere but this is my official interest check now that I have some more info to share...

I'm in the process of converting Rise of the Runelords so that instead of beginning at level 1 it starts at 11th level with 1 mythic tier (and ends above level 20). This is not an active recruitment, yet, but I wanted to share some relevant details and see how much interest there really is.

I plan to run it for a party of 4 gestalt characters. I will not be allowing any 3pp materials (I know some of its very popular, but it causes rules bloat and, frankly, I know the paizo material well enough to predict what the characters will be capable of but that's not true of the 3pp stuff). For races, I'd allow any canonical Golarion races that are listed as "core" or "featured" but the world is mostly human and core races and I'd prefer the party makeup to reflect that. I will, however, be adding a little buff to each core race to bring them more in line with power level of the featured races (for example, humans will get +2 to any two stats, without sacrificing anything).

I know that leaves tons of unanswered questions (feel free to ask them), but for right now I'm mostly interested in seeing how much interest there is in a game at this power level with those restrictions. If there's not enough interest I won't bother investing the time to finish converting it.

I know some of you have expressed interest in the past but I'd love to hear from you again now that more details have been provided.


I'd love to play in this. It would scratch my epic fantasy itch in a big way.


May be interested, I never got to finish RotRL (we got up to the final battle and then it died), or to play books 1 and 2. How much of teh story would change?

Little nitpick, Human is already the most powerful race though. I can see giving Gnomes and Halflings and the rest a boost, but that extra Feat is already crucial for many builds, and a floating +2 and extra skills per level never hurt anyone.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

i'm interested, but i'm not interested in a tease ;)

[/joke]

yeah, humans are damn powerful, they don't need a boost.


YES

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

The human bonus feat is less significant (IMO) when you're starting at 11th level instead of 1st (because you don't have to play those early levels where a non-human would suffer from not yet being able to afford something like slashing/fencing grace).

That said, I'm not opposed to people feeling like human is one of the strongest options... there should be some reason why they're the predominant, ruling race on Golarion.


Giving humans +2 to any two stats would be roughly equivalent to giving every other race a bonus feat, no?

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Regarding the question about the story: I'm working on keeping it pretty true to the original, but replacing a lot of the monsters with different ones (I'm not going to make CR 11 goblins because, to me, that strains believability).

The Exchange

Interested. I'm running the ap if that matters .. .


nate lange wrote:
Regarding the question about the story: I'm working on keeping it pretty true to the original, but replacing a lot of the monsters with different ones (I'm not going to make CR 11 goblins because, to me, that strains believability).

Yeah, probably.

So are you looking more at enemies with class levels (EX Orc Barbarians or Hobgoblin Slayers) or upgrading to like eldritch horrors attack Sandpoint?


You are getting rid of the goblins...but what about the singing?
:)
Seriously this sounds interesting. I will go for it if this becomes a formal recruitment.
Would you be using the unchained class rules?


Ye gads it's been a long time since I've played a game at such a high level. And with Mythic too!?

The rusty old gamer-me-from-the-90's/early 2000's is stirring! The drool! I'm drowning!

.... Somehow I REALLY want to join, but I'd hate to ruin the hard work by horrible PBP... Have never done PBP with a dice/rules system before, just free form RP, so.... Yeah...

If that won't be a problem, I'd like to opt my name in whenever this becomes a formal recruitment. Would you allow occult classes? (And if so, how many enemies would have blood?)..... My Dhampir Blood Kineticist is frothing at the mouth to be gestalted with a full-bab class, lol.


nate lange wrote:
Regarding the question about the story: I'm working on keeping it pretty true to the original, but replacing a lot of the monsters with different ones (I'm not going to make CR 11 goblins because, to me, that strains believability).

But what if I want to be that CR 11 goblin D:

Joking aside, I would probably try and aim to be a goblin of some kind.
However, Lvl 11, gestalt, mythic and core races getting free boosts? Sounds like some serious power there.
Questions.
Would you be up for using skill unlocks? By Lvl 10 you can actually use some of them, and some are kinda neat :)
Are you going to put some limits on mythic shenanigans (such as mythic vital strike)?
How prevailant are guns?

My first idea would be some sort of crack shot goblin gunslinger with a seriously loud single shot gun (with non-mythic vital strike).
However I will wait for a proper recruitment :)


dotting!


I've always wanted to play RotRL and this sounds like a very interesting way to do so.


I'd love to get in on this too.


yep


Always interested in playing, and being epic like this sounds awesome. You can always put my name down. I'm thinking of making a Sword Saint/Something with a fascination for ancient history.


Yes


You'll have more interest than you know what to do with, I'm sure.

Including mine, if I can put a halfway appealing concept together.


Oh, yes. I absolutely want in on this.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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Part of the reason that this isn't active recruitment yet is that I don't have definitive answers to all of these questions yet (I'm glad you're all asking though- helps me make sure I've thought through them beforehand). Here's as many tentative answers as I can give right now:

- lots of people have played/run the AP, I won't hold that against anyone (you just need to make sure to keep player knowledge out of it).
- I don't want to give away too much about enemies/plots but in this more dangerous Varisia there are tribes of hill and stone giants that live In the lowlands (rather than being confined to the storval plateau).
- there are other things that can sing... (there might not be any singing)
- unchained rules: I probably won't allow stamina or skill unlocks; I like them in theory but want to avoid rules bloat (and with mythic gestalt you should already have plenty of options). I probably will use the automatic bonus progression (because there's nothing sexy about selling a bunch of lesser magic items to upgrade one of your 'big 6' items). For classes- definitely yes to unchained rogue, I'd prefer base barbarians, monks can be original or unchained (but no archetypes for unchained); summoners can be original but frankly are probably a poor choice because at this power level the eidolon will really struggle to keep up (that's honestly probably true for hunters too).
- I don't like to nerf a lot of stuff, but mythic vital strike can be very powerful... I'd allow it but with the understanding that if it becomes disruptive we may have apply some limitations (maybe make it a full round action or something)
- emerging firearms (only early firearms will be available).


Would there be some sort of mechanic replacement for Rogue's Edge then? Or do you mean that skill unlocks will only happen as a result of Rogue's Edge?


That would be fair, I think. Makes it a rogues specialty. Don't allow the feat that gives any class skill unlocks.
Of course, GM choice applies.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Well... I guess I meant rogues just lose out on rogue's edge but when I say it out loud that sounds like something they probably can't afford... I'll re-evaluate that and probably either let rogue's edge be the only way to get skill unlocks or replace it with something...


I would love to see this. I've been wanting to play in rise of the rune lords and I love gestalt. I haven't played the AP before. Only hard thing will be chosing from the many awesome options. No path of war limits options, but that'll only make it easier to chose, which is a good thing, since it'll be incredibly hard. Will you be allowing templates (I prefer not to as they can be extremely unbalancing)? Will we get extra feats to make it easier to complement both sides of the gestalt? Can we take a drawback for an extra trait(this question is frequently not answered in the OP of recruitment)? How do you feel about the recent errata/nerfs? Will you be allowing any of the old versions? How do you feel about slightly changing rules to make things possible that otherwise wouldn't be? Some GMs very strictly follow FAQs/RAW while others make things work as they see fit.

I almost want to prove you wrong on the "summoners are underpowered" statement by playing a mounted barbarian (who can share both rage powers and teamwork feats with his mount) or a synthesist, but I'm playing both of those in other games, so I'm probably not going to (though coordinated charge kicks in right about the time this starts, making the mounted combo extra appealing).

Will you be trying to pick people from different paths?

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

more (tentative) answers:

- i think i would let unchained rogues keep rogues edge, but disallow the signature skill feat (that will limit bloat without re-nerfing the poor rogues).
- no templates.
- probably not going to give extra bonus feats at all. that may limit options some (because you can't use two feat heavy builds together), but may actually encourage people to use tighter design when building their characters (thinking a little more about what they want to focus on and what synergizes well).
- most likely not going to use drawbacks. i might do 2 traits plus a campaign trait though.
- the recent nerfs mostly seemed unnecessary or too extreme to me... if there's a specific feat or class ability you have questions about ask but many of them I'm fine with pre-errata versions of.
- for the most part we're gonna stick pretty closely to RAW. if there's something specific that you're trying to make work and can't, feel free to ask about it; i may be able to point out a workable option within RAW (or occasionally might suggest a homebrew alternative).

not, technically, a question but: about pets- I'm not prohibiting them, and there are a couple ways to keep them viable, but its going to be an uphill battle... if you really want a pet and are willing to invest feats, class abilities, and mythic path abilities into it, go for it; but do so knowing that its never going to gain a mythic rank or mythic template or anything like that.


I would be interested in this as well. I love Rise, but have yet to play through it using the pathfinder system.


A good way to keep pets viable is to stack multiple class' bonus onto it.

Sohei//Samurai Guardian, for example.

I'm just wondering, because I've found this hard to do myself: How do you plan on dealing with the damage explosion of gestalt?

The subsystem really encourages Martial//Martial builds, because a character can benefit from both classes at once on a given round, whereas a Caster//caster can only be as good as one of them at once (only has so many actions to throw around spells).

Suppose you had a Sohei//Luring cavalier.

He can flurry with his longbow, and add his level to damage on all the
attacks.

What do you do to avoid him wiping out just about any creature in a single round?


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There are multiple answers to that question. The easiest answer is that often more damage doesn't always help solve a problem. You still need to reach, hit and be able to affect the enemy. Of course I'm a big fan of tuning the encounters for the party, in gestalt/mythic that might mean you have to change the monsters completly, buffing the HP massively, without boosting the saves quite as much. Simply having more enemies could be another solution as casters generally get more AoE effects.

I think I'll try to make a caster, most likely going the archmage path, but we'll see what inspiration strikes me.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

[off topic=short discourse on gestalt/high power in general]
i think handling stuff like that is largely situational. it may be ok for some (minor) bosses to get nova'd in a round. other bosses will have defenses that will help with things like that, particularly against martial/martials- a wall of force (or stone) is a simple spell easily available to casters at this level that will buy a BBEG some time to heal/buff/summon/flee/whatever while Johnny Shootsalot tries to break it down with arrows. stoneskin hurts anyone relying on lots of attacks. even improved invisibilty can be a real challenge for most martial/martials. something that is, or can be, a swarm will basically completely shutdown many M/Ms. plus you won't always get to use 15 minute adventuring days so you may not always get to nova.

in that particular example flurry isn't that big of a force multiplier because it doesn't stack with rapid shot/many shot which (with cavlier's full BAB) would have had you at very similar quantity/quality of attacks. challenge is a potent ability for making a high number of attacks but much of what you'd be fighting will have templates, mythic ranks, and other such things to make them a challenge (hopefully).
[/off topic]

In looking to assemble a party of 4 I will be hoping for at least 1 character who will get 9th level arcane spells, and at least 1 who will get 9th level divine spells... truthfully I believe that will make the party more powerful overall than if they lacked that, but it may also limit, to some extent, the nova potential of 4 characters like what the dragon described.


I'd be interested. I got to run a small amount of the first part of Rise Of the Runelords before my players just started robbing stores and got thrown in jail, so I'd love to be in an actual play-through of somesort.


Not that I'm planning on playing it, but are you going to houserule sohei to not be able to flurry and use rapid shot/manyshot? Zen archer specifically states that it doesn't work for them, but Sohei (or crusader's flurry) has no such restriction. It'll set a precedent for toning down other similar "loopholes" I suppose.

I think I'll aim for a character with 9th level arcane spells, though I haven't actually looked much at archmage so I might be inspired by something else instead.. I was thinking about potentially going marshal, but that doesn't sound as appealing when at least half the party will be full casters.

Oh, is pregame crafting allowed? Are there special rules for mythic crafting?


Hmm. I've played through the first book, but the campaign sort of petered out from there... Getting to complete it would be nice, and combining it with high-level play would be fun.


I'm interested.

Sczarni

Interested


On Mythic Vital Strike: The Mythic Hero's Handbook has a fix for that power, and I'd be happy to post it if you want to use it. XD

That said, I'm interested!


I'd be interested in making a character

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

More answers/comments:

- I forgot that was a houserule... Yes, any (old school) flurry with a ranged weapon will function as described under Zen Archer. The unchained flurry does not include feats as a valid method of adding attacks to it, so there's no question there.

- don't be too quick to discount the Marshal path, one of the things about gestalt is that just because someone is a 9 level caster doesn't mean they won't also be getting into melee... ranger/druid, pally/oracle, even magus/wizard are just a few examples of potential effective melee/casters.

- magic items will be somewhat rare (since we'll be using automatic bonus progression) so I'd prefer not to get into too much crafting (plus I'm not anticipating big stretches of down time). If someone wants to invest feats in it knowing that, I'll give them some bonus starting wealth to represent having done some personal crafting.

- mythic crafting will not be available at the start. If it's something that someone who has been selected wants to pursue we can talk about necessary steps after the game is in progress. You're best bet if you want a spectacular magic item will be to take the legendary item universal path power.

- I'd love to see their take on Mythic Vital Strike


Yes! The change in power level allows for more mature concepts, and Runelords is a great choice for the adjustment.


*Sends a PM with the info*

It definitely fixes the worst parts of that particular mythic feat. XD And, I think, brings it in line with the power of a lot of other "Move + Full Attack" strategies, which is where it probably should've been to start with.


Interested, if my PbP load permits it when that time comes around

But like others have said, I anticipate you'll have plenty of interested parties to assemble your 4 from.

:)


Hmm. Didn't know about that houserule. That makes sohei monks (and thrown monks in general, but there wasn't a huge niche there in the first place) quite a bit less exciting in gestalt.

Ahh well, was leaning more towards Fighter//Investigator anyway. I love the idea of an investigator with a greatsword in fullplate.

Or maybe Sorcerer//something. We'll see.


I would be interested, assuming I don't get into either of the other two gestalt campaigns I've submitted characters for.

Note to The Dragon:
Are there any classes/archetypes that make throwing builds, especially with daggers and such, halfway decent? From what I've seen, even archetypes supposedly made for such a build (like the Swashbuckler's Flying Blade) only serve to make you suck slightly less hard compared to an archer. And they all assume that you nothing but throw with the daggers. I'd like to make a "switch-hitter" who alternates between melee and thrown attacks with daggers, but I'm getting the feeling I'd better homebrew my own class for that.


The Dragon wrote:
Hmm. Didn't know about that houserule. That makes sohei monks (and thrown monks in general, but there wasn't a huge niche there in the first place) quite a bit less exciting in gestalt.

Wait... Sohei monks are INSANE in gestalt. Ride-by Attack and Mounted Skirmisher, with a two level dip, and no pre-reqs? Sign me up!

And it's not a house rule. Base monk specifically says flurry allows no extra attacks from other sources (so a shrunken monk can't rapid shot), and Sohei preserves those rules. But Unchained Monks don't, iirc.


This seems pretty cool. If you move past interest check for it, I'll probably apply in your recruitment thread.


Bificommander:
How about this one? It's a little untraditional, but here we go: I think a primal hunter & hurler barbarian with a spear (or other two-handed thrown weapon)on one side, with the Lesser Hurling and Hurling Charge rage powers, and something that gives bonus feats for quick draw, two-handed throw, and archery feats on the other side, and finally, a blinkback belt might be a pretty reasonable character.

Human Primal Hunter Barbarian 10//Slayer 10
Str 16+2+2(lvl)+2(ABP)
Dex 16+2
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 14+2(ABP)
Cha 8

Furious spear(+1 furious with attunement)
Blinkback Belt

Feats:
1H - Power Attack
1B - Exceptional Pull (meh)
1 - Quick Draw
2S - Rapid Shot (Combat Style)
3 - Two-Handed Thrower
4S - Weapon Focus: Spear (Weapon Training)
5 - Deadly Aim
6S - Improved Precise Shot (Combat Style)
7 - Extra Rage Power
8S - ??? (Combat Trick, can take a different slayer talent)
9 - ???
10S - ??? (Combat Style, can take a different slayer talent)

Rage Powers
2 - Reckless Abandon
4 - Lesser Hurling
6 - Hurling Charge
8 - Lesser Beast Totem
9F - Beast Totem
10 - Greater Beast Totem

Stats count rage & studied target/whatever the slayer thingy is called, deadly aim, reckless abandon &/or power attack
Melee: +25/+20 (1d8+27)
Thrown: +21/+21/+16 (1d8+24)
Charge: +25/+27/+21, thrown/melee/melee

I don't know if this is decent or not. I think it'd be fun, regardless.

thunderbeard:
Quote:

Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action.

When doing so, he may make one additional attack, taking a –2 penalty on all of his attack rolls, as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat. These attacks can be any combination of unarmed strikes and attacks with a monk special weapon (he does not need to use two weapons to utilize this ability).

For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus from his monk class levels is equal to his monk level. For all other purposes, such as qualifying for a feat or a prestige class, the monk uses his normal base attack bonus.

At 8th level, the monk can make two additional attacks when he uses flurry of blows, as if using Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat).

At 15th level, the monk can make three additional attacks using flurry of blows, as if using Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat).

A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands. A monk may substitute disarm, sunder, and trip combat maneuvers for unarmed attacks as part of a flurry of blows. A monk cannot use any weapon other than an unarmed strike or a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows. A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks.

So, apart from the bit about natural attacks, I don't see anything in there that says you can't benefit from other effects. Certainly not 'specifically'. I think you're thinking of Haste.

Would Mythic items be available for purchase? Some are pretty cool, like the everlasting potion.


Raises hand

Um, I never got an answer if you'd allow the occult classes?


I would probably be building a character that I've started in rise 3 different times and could not successfully get off the ground: A dwarven forgemaster cleric (Not sure about what he would gestalt with, but would probably be either a investigator or rogue, maybe wizard).

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