So as not to further derail the discussion of Blood of Shadows in its own product thread...
What is the best way to approach Blood of... products for changelings, vishkanya, and kitsunes? Ideas so far:
...Changelings are my all-time favorite race - they practically got me into Golarion. I adore them. But a 32-page changeling-only book would be overkill, in my opinion. Same for strix, or grippli, or (I'm going to be murdered for this) vishkanya.
I think this book could be on the right track, if it avoids the pitfalls of Elements and Night. Don't make it a gazetteer of locations, or a guide to playing monster races, or a grab bag of random options for just anyone. Tell us how these races live, give each of them some solid attention. Above all, stay focused.
...Blood of Deceit: Changelings, vishkanya, and kitsune. Three races is a big split - keep it focused!
Not to nit-pick, but can it instead be named something like Blood of the Cunning? "Deceit" implies an innate distrustfulness and deceptiveness in these races, which bugs the hell out of me.
I won't tell you not to be bothered by it - that's not illegitimate. The problem is, "distrustfulness and deceptiveness" seem to be in the nature of the listed races, to a major extent.
Changelings, especially the green widow (which the fluff seems to paint as the default), are literally creatures of deceit. First at conception, again at the crib swap, and seemingly throughout their lives.
Vishkanya and kitsune both have available racial traits focused on disguising themselves as human. Existing vishkanya options are almost myopically focused on that one idea. Kitsune are painted heavily as tricksters and deceivers as well.
Maybe I'm reading too much into things... but I think of it as tiefling-esque. You can play a tiefling paladin, but you're playing against a stereotype. Nothing wrong with that.
Both names (Blood of Deceit and Blood of the Cunning) are sort of missing the point of the brand name, however. Aasimar literally have the blood of angels. Tieflings literally have the blood of feints. Vampires (and dhampirs by extension) are commonly referred to as "creatures of the night," so they both literally have blood of the night. Skinwalkers' blood is tainted by lycanthropy, which is triggered by the moon, so they literally have blood of the moon. And geniekin literally have blood of the elements.
Deceit and cunning don't have that level of connection to a "thing" that connects the races together, because when you get right down to it, all of the aforementioned races are connected by some sort of communal blood heritage; they're suffused with or by something.
If Paizo wants to say that kitsune are officially fey-descended (which I'm sort of "meh" about), then Blood of the Fey could work for them. But Blood of Deceit / the Cunning doesn't fit the naming scheme, and naming is EVERYTHING when it comes to a brand identity.
There are already many excellent kitsune ideas in this existing thread (and in Alex's own excellent Kitsune Compendium book).
My opposition to using "deceit" is in playing along with the narrative that these races are somehow inherently dishonest. The all-women lamias, harpies, medusas, and hags had their classical mythological traits of "rebellious and non-conformity" re-written as "evil women-creatures who seek to deceive men, especially using their feminine wiles." This is the current overriding perception of them among gamers (and in pop culture), even though in their myth origins, several of these creatures were themselves deceived and raped by powerful male beings; not only is the original violence done to them by men ignored, the women creatures have their narratives twisted so they become solely complicit in their own tragic fates.
D&D (and then Pathfinder) then adopted all this into their in-game canon. Vishkanyas, kitsune, and changelings are now in Pathfinder, and again, the first label applied to them is deceitful. They had no say in their parentage/creation (vishkanyas and changelings) or in being shapeshifters (kitsune), but they are somehow inherently untrustworthy deceivers, and as they are predominately depicted as female so far, they fall back into the "evil deceptively-sexy woman" trope again. Ignoring it from the feminist angle, that's just boring and lazy storytelling.
I'm not opposed them being antagonists (most everything in the game that isn't a PC is an antagonist of some sort). I'm not opposed to them being female, or even sexy. But damnit, there's a hell of a lot more that can be fleshed out in them than only that. Kitsunes are curious, mischievous, shapeshifters, and often tricksters, but that doesn't make them evil/deceitful anymore than Bugs Bunny or Anasasi (or skindancers for that matter). Changelings may have been born from a hag mother and pressured to become like her, but they are explicitly stated as having a choice; many spend relatively "normal" childhoods with adoptive parents before they hear their mothers' calls. Little has been written of vishkanyas in Golarion so far, but mythically they had no say in becoming poisonousness/toxic, so why do they have to be deceitful or tainted with evil?
Yes, Golarion is an unfair world, and being marginalized and outcast (and targeted with violence) for their racial traits will lead many vishkanyas, kitsune, and changelings down the path of evil. But, they have the same capacity for good (and neutrality), lawfulness and self-reliance, as the other core races, so how can we depict them honestly? How can we show how their racial origins and abilities shape their mindset and perception of the world and the other races? How do they perceive themselves differently from how outside races perceive them? How do their qualities and outlooks influence their relationship with nature, with magic, and with the deities? What makes them feel like a living breathing believable being with credible goals, and not just another two dimensional baddie to kill for XP and loot?
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My posts in the thread were written from the assumption that we had to reinforce the existing canon for the races, rather than redefine it. If I had thought it were appropriate to do so, I would have come at things from a different angle. (I'm also terrified of saying something too off-brand, so I tend to cleave closer to "that's what's written".)
Re: specific races:
-My personal canon for vishkanya is that they are created from infant humans, closer to the original myths. If I could get that in print, I'd do it in a flash.
-My preference for folding in changelings is that they are born of deceit. The flavor they've received thus far has been... problematic, and their appearances in Golarion tend to fit that. :/
-As previously mentioned, I read kitsune the same way you did - I didn't mean to imply maliciousness at all.
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My posts in the thread were written from the assumption that we had to reinforce the existing canon for the races, rather than redefine it. If I had thought it were appropriate to do so, I would have come at things from a different angle. (I'm also terrified of saying something too off-brand, so I tend to cleave closer to "that's what's written".)
Paizo has paid attention to criticism in the past from customers and their own staff, and done much to improve depictions of women, non-whites, and LGBT peeps in their products and throughout the RPG hobby. Also, this is one of my peeves (like Mikaze's advocacy for non-evil half-orcs) and I'm feeling extra cranky today. :)
It has bugged me for a while, starting back when lamias were re-introduced in 3.0 and then in later Pathfinder products (Paizo and 3PP). I started jotting down notes to do my own Lamias Reclaimed book, taking them back to their mythological roots and "dispelling" all the "always seductive evil" crap that keeps getting built on. And then changelings came along, and I started wanting to do Hags Reclaimed (and ones for medusa and harpies too). I wrote skindancers for Wayfinder #7 specifically to be an alternative to the "malicious trickster" version of Eberron's changelings and Faerun's fey-ri.
I just wish I could get past my entrenched writer's block. :(
Re: specific races:
-My personal canon for vishkanya is that they are created from infant humans, closer to the original myths. If I could get that in print, I'd do it in a flash.
-My preference for folding in changelings is that they are born of deceit. The flavor they've received thus far has been... problematic, and their appearances in Golarion tend to fit that. :/
-As previously mentioned, I read kitsune the same way you did - I didn't mean to imply maliciousness at all.
I think my general canon/assumptions lie along your lines of thinking. I didn't read malice into your intent, but I tend to parse words describing women (and LGBT folk) much more precisely.
My two cents is that changelings should get their own Blood of x book. As there is enough different hags to justified them to receive the same treatment that tieflings and asimars got.
And I am going have to disagree I think each race should gets it's own Blood of x Book as putting many in one seems to dilute it too much.
To me, those three races really are not a natural grouping. I could see a fey-themed book with Kitsune and Changelings (assuming Kitsune are connected with the First World, which might not be the case). But Vishkanya don't fit in on that theme. I could see Vishkanya in a reptile themed book, but obviously that doesn't fit the other two races.
Personally I think the best tactic would be to do a whole book dedicated to changelings, put Vishkanya into a either book focused on Vudran races when perhaps those places are more developed (i.e. include Vanaras and maybe one other new race) or reptile themed races. Kitsune are tough for me. If we ever get Cynocephali as a 0HD race, you could do a canid themed book. Or perhaps have a book themed on shapeshifters? I really just want to avoid a "anthropomorphic" book, since one book for ratfolk, catfolk, Kitsune, vanara, and what have you is too much for a companion.
To me Changelings are not so geographically restricted as some races, say Vishkanya or Kitsune, and are close enough to human that they can be easily added to a setting/storyline without people getting confused or weirded out. And they are not a designated "enemy" race like say some 0HD races.
So I think you could do a whole book on them. Granted maybe they are not as popular as Aasimar and Tieflings, which would be the one hang up.
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Also, for being a huge fan of changelings, apparently I'm the only one who doesn't think they can fill an entire Player Companion. Don't let me stop you, Paizo. I'll buy it too. Heck, I'll write it if you let me...
Well, there is a 3pp book which made it to 24 pages. Dunno whether you remember it, I found a comment from you there.
So 32 pages by Paizo should be possible. And appearantly they don't look at 3pp stuff (To avoid copying it? To make up their own mind? Because of a lack of time?), so both books could complement each other well.
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The list of possible parental types for Changelings grew by a whole bunch in 20131 in Bestiary 4 and Reign of Winter, although these seem to have been thrown in there without much thought.
Changelings and their parents have the kernel of a really fascinating backstory, so it is aggravating when they get short shrift.
In addition, Covens currently have a severe lack of fleshing out (to start with, they all have the same Coven abilities regardless of power of the individuals composing them, apart from some substitutions when they get certain types of members. They should be made into entities that can grow with their members. This would also benefit the Witch and Accursed Bloodline Sorcerer, for whom the Coven Hex and Accursed Bloodline Arcana are currently nearly useless except for NPC villains and the occasional Evil PC party. Speaking of Witches, the current Witch archetype for Changelings (Dreamweaver) is rather underwhelming, and with or without this archetype, Changelings Witches don't have much going for them.
So actually, Witchbloods have potential for a lot of material for a supplement right of the bat. But if that is not enough, take into account that they canonically have a First World/Fey origin even if they are no longer Fey, and add in some other creatures that have a similar origin -- let Satyrs, Korreds, Huldras, and some similar types of Fey, and maybe even Medusas and Harpies (no known First World connection, but similar reproductive characteristics) in on the party, and while we're at it, add some more for Gnomes (who definitely have a First World/Fey connection, but seem to have gotten a bit shafted with respect to abilities among the Core Races.
So this should easily make enough for a whole book. And if you don't like the title Blood of the Fey, or Blood of the First World, how about Blood of the Weird?
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I will say that if you brought hags and covens into things, you'd have a lot more to work with. People might dislike it for the same reasons as Blood of the Night, however.
I'd love to see first-party support for other changeling heritages, similar to the excellent work from the aforementioned third-party product. (Hero Lab and PFS make first-party content a little more of an issue for me. And yes, I do have changeling boons.)
I'm still processing exactly why I feel this way about a changeling-only book. I'll get back to you all on that.
By the way, since the thread title also includes Kitsune and Vishkanyas, I made the terms links to the Wikipedia entries, the latter of which even mentions PFRPG.
I'm finding very little online about the vishkanyas/vish kanyas of myth.
I am excited to the point of impropriety after having read the changeling content in Inner Sea Races.
That is all.
ARRRRGGGGGHHHH!
:)
If you're going to do a 'blood of Tricksters' then you've gotta have Tengu in it. Union rules.
No, sorry, I don't make them, but we all gotta live by 'em.
:>
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Just a heads-up: blood hags, storm hags, winter hags, and even mute hags all have changeling variants in Inner Sea Races. (Night hags are specifically called out as producing tieflings.) Between that and the Witchborn and Hag Magic alternate racial traits, I'm extremely happy with the changeling support provided in the new book. ^_^
@Matthew Morris: There are now non-unique changeling race boons (Tier 1 & 2 from Gen Con). If you ask around, you might be able to score one.
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To be honest, I don''t think they really need the massive variation that Heritages offer. Alternate traits similar to Mist Child and the others from the ARG for the new ones would be cool.
What I would prefer are feats, traits, and archetypes for each hag lineage. So, a druid archetype for sea-born, a barbarian archetype for annis-born, and so on.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Thnk you Kalindlara, I know it is from Gen Con, our local players have been unwilling to shine me with their boons from GMing, and my own employment has been... poor to go to even Origins of late :-(
And I'd missed the new hag types. Winter witch changling would be fun
Considering the description that the kitsune got in Inner Sea Races I think the correct player companion name for them would be "Blood of Spirits". Kitsune are described as having "one foot in the physical world, and other in the world of the spirits".
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Mmmm, if changelings were to get their own "Blood of" book, I do think there might be more than enough questions for 32 pages to cover it.
- Expanding on each of the Hag Heritages. Personality/varying physical traits of changelings of each heritage. Where is each heritage likely to be encountered on Golarion? How do the people of those areas view them? (Maybe even a Tiefling bloodline for the night hag)
- A small section on Hags, an Occult Ritual for the Calling.
- New feats/archetypes (alternatively bundled in with the heritages like Kaliandra suggested)
After taking a look at Blood of Fiends/Angels I think it would be quite possible for such a book.
A book focused on Nagaji and Vishkanya (Possibly lizardfolk too or just those two) is also one i'm looking forward to. Specifically Vishkanya since they're so interesting but there's not much I can find on them.
And as Matrix mentioned, a Kitsune book could easily be called Blood of Spirits.
Of course, for any of these books to happen, we need to blow out Paizo's stock on Blood of Shadows first.
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Of course, for any of these books to happen, we need to blow out Paizo's stock on Blood of Shadows first.
I don't know if we need to blow out stock, but I think its worth remembering that we went over a year between Blood of the Elements and Blood of Shadow, and I'm willing to bet that the lukewarm (if not downright hostile) reaction to Blood of the Elements had something to do with that.
I don't know if we need to blow out stock, but I think its worth remembering that we went over a year between Blood of the Elements and Blood of Shadow, and I'm willing to bet that the lukewarm (if not downright hostile) reaction to Blood of the Elements had something to do with that.
This is most likely true, yes. But good sales for Blood of Shadows certainly won't hurt our chances of a Blood of the Coven(?) or Blood of Whatever Those Forked-tongue Guys Should Be Called book coming sooner rather than later.
Of course, for any of these books to happen, we need to blow out Paizo's stock on Blood of Shadows first.I don't know if we need to blow out stock, but I think its worth remembering that we went over a year between Blood of the Elements and Blood of Shadow, and I'm willing to bet that the lukewarm (if not downright hostile) reaction to Blood of the Elements had something to do with that.
Yea, Paizo seems to have a bad habit of focusing on the wrong things when they write the 'blood of' books and I bet it is hurting their sales. The vampire one focused too much on an unplayable monster rather than giving us more info on dampires. Blood of Elements only gave 2 pages to each subrace. Blood of the Moon was closer to the right monster/player race mix but had a lot of errors.
We'll have to see how Blood of Shadows comes out, but hopefully it is more focused and better edited than the other ones.