Acid Arrow - Metamagic Fun


Advice


Hi -

Been studying up on metamagic feats in advance of a sorcerer build I'm putting together.

Please tell me if I've got this right:

Acid Arrow with Magical Lineage - Cast as a 5th level spell due to the following feats:

Elemental (change to cold)
Extend
Rime
Sickening

Would this mean, if casting it at 9th Level, that it would:

Damage the target for 6 rounds (no save)
Entangle the target for 6 rounds (no save)
Cause the target to be sickened for 6 rounds unless it made a Fortitude save every round

Assuming it would, then would that even be worth it? Seems pretty good to me...

I've been trying to put together some good combinations together beyond some of the standbys (toppling mm, dazing fireball) and also trying to select metamagic feats that could come in handy for other spells.

Would probably need to take other cold-based spells to make Rime worth it, but as long as there's a blast spell for every level, Sickening seems solid.

It would be for PFS, so that's a consideration as well.

Thoughts?

Thanks as always!

KT


I like the outside of the box thinking, but I believe your math is a little off. Sickening (+2), Rime (+1), Extend (+1), and Elemental (+1) add up to +5, less the 1 from magical lineage takes it to +4 and a 6th level spell slot. You could stack Wayang Spell Hunter on there too, although that does eat another trait and will draw the old raised eyebrow from most GMs.

The fort save DC doesn't get bumped up by the metamagic, so I wouldn't be too enthused about the sickening. You also have to hit with the initial ranged touch attack, of course.

Just for comparison, some 5th level spells:
- Magic jar
- Icy prison
- Baleful polymorph
- Fire snake
- Phantasmal web

At 6th level:
- Planar Binding
- Chain Lightning
- Sirocco
- Form of the Dragon 1
- Cloak of Dreams

The sweet spot for magical lineage is usually keeping a spell in its original slot with a much enhanced effect (i.e. the magus entangling machine that is a Rime Frostbite, or the 10d6 empowered shocking grasp). The way the power curve is set up usually means that multi-stacking meta-magic isn't worth it.


hum. Might be a bit more worth it if your bloodline auto changed acid to ice.
drop the sickening (that dc isn't amazing) then use the double trait.
That'll do the same but no sickening (realistically that DC is too low for the time period when you can do this)
could also get a rod of sickening or extend
Will take a full round action though. Due to metamagic rods.


A dazing acid arrow forces a save each round, or be dazed for the next two. Damage over time and dazing spell are shockingly good together.

Rime spell and frost fall combine well for similar reasons.

Note the arcane bloodline if you're going to be using metamagic heavily this way.


So, a few problems.

As someone already pointed out, it's +5 to a second level spell, reducing that by 1 gives you a 6th level spell (which you seem to know since you assumed 6 rounds).

Rime doesn't work on it. Rime requires "This feat only affects spells with the cold descriptor." Elemental spell doesn't add any descriptors. It's a decent houserule but it would be a houserule.

Damaging for 6 rounds is fine, it would only entangle and sicken for 2. "A rime spell causes creatures that takes cold damage from the spell to become entangled for a number of rounds equal to the original level of the spell." "When a creature takes damage from this spell, they become sickened for a number of rounds equal to the original level of the spell."

As for how useful... meh. You're blowing a sixth level spell on giving them a few minor penalties. Sickened especially is just -2 to their rolls for +2 to the spell level. Entangled is much more useful but only because it can shut down charging. And Elemental is only there because you can't use Rime without it.

Better would be using a bloodline that lets you change the element (most specify they also change the descriptor) or using a better spell. Icicle Dagger is a nice one to metamagic up with Rime. Frost Fall, as someone else mentioned, is even better. Adds staggered to the mix, hits longer than acid arrow, same level, natively cold.


Stacking abilities is what makes you broken.

FOr example an admixture wizard with magical knack and wayang spell hunter dipping a level in waves oracle and dual blooded sorcerer.

You cast a spell change it to cold with admixture, your waves slows them, your dual blooded adds 2 dmg PER die you roll.

So you rime a fireball, and because you took spell specialization and varisian tattoo you add 3 to the caster level, and rime it for free with wayang spell hunter. Then for giggles empower it with a rod.

Well now your fireball damage is about tripled, plus it can slow and entangle them.

This is all without raising the spell slot as chuffster said.


Bob Bob Bob wrote:
Damaging for 6 rounds is fine, it would only entangle and sicken for 2. "A rime spell causes creatures that takes cold damage from the spell to become entangled for a number of rounds equal to the original level of the spell." "When a creature takes damage from this spell, they become sickened for a number of rounds equal to the original level of the spell."

The thing is, an acid arrow doesn't just do damage on the first round. The spell does damage again on the second round, etc. When the spell does damage again, the target is entangled/saves vs. sickened again, assuming that rime spell works with the spell at all.


one of my favorites if to use magical lineage and wayang to reduce a persistent acid arrow back to a lvl 2 spell. Then you can use your lesser dazing metamagic rod to make it a dazing persistent acid arrow. All for a lovely lvl 2 spell.


avr wrote:
Bob Bob Bob wrote:
Damaging for 6 rounds is fine, it would only entangle and sicken for 2. "A rime spell causes creatures that takes cold damage from the spell to become entangled for a number of rounds equal to the original level of the spell." "When a creature takes damage from this spell, they become sickened for a number of rounds equal to the original level of the spell."
The thing is, an acid arrow doesn't just do damage on the first round. The spell does damage again on the second round, etc. When the spell does damage again, the target is entangled/saves vs. sickened again, assuming that rime spell works with the spell at all.
...read the OP. I'm referring to:
Kilgore Trout73 wrote:

Damage the target for 6 rounds (no save)

Entangle the target for 6 rounds (no save)
Cause the target to be sickened for 6 rounds unless it made a Fortitude save every round

The entangle would last 7 rounds overall but it would come in 6 sources of 2 rounds each. The sicken would get a save every round for a 2 round sicken. I'm not sure what situation this would make a difference for (isn't there a domain that can transfer conditions to itself?) but it is a necessary distinction. Like getting hit 4 times for 5 damage being identical to getting hit once for 20 damage... until damage reduction, parry, etc. show up. Maybe protection from cold is cast during the duration. Either way, it's not a "6 round" duration but a "2 round duration every round for 6 rounds".


Really appreciate the feedback!

Ya, I had the level wrong (thought it was 1st not 2nd) on my initial calculations.

Right...stacking does make it broken.

bob bob bob wrote:
Better would be using a bloodline that lets you change the element (most specify they also change the descriptor) or using a better spell. Icicle Dagger is a nice one to metamagic up with Rime. Frost Fall, as someone else mentioned, is even better. Adds staggered to the mix, hits longer than acid arrow, same level, natively cold.

Really good ideas here - thanks! Going to check out that Frost Fall for sure!

The goal of keeping the spell at it's initial level or maybe 1 higher makes a lot of sense, too. That's a good thing to keep in mind as I continue to work on some other combinations.

Good ideas from all of you - thank you!

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