About Promise and Mengkare (possible spoiler?)


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion

51 to 100 of 124 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | next > last >>
Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Ah, Thankies.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Well that sucks. Was a great setting specific thing to have.

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Rysky wrote:
I didn't want to bring this up but I believe I've read before that the reason they're not posting Mengy's alignment is that the developers themselves don't even agree what it should be.

Yes, James Jacobs says over here that they have left it vague (and will likely continue to) because of disagreements on what his alignment should be.

Note: I posted here because the discussion was deemed OT for that thread.


CBDunkerson wrote:
Rysky wrote:
I didn't want to bring this up but I believe I've read before that the reason they're not posting Mengy's alignment is that the developers themselves don't even agree what it should be.

Yes, James Jacobs says over here that they have left it vague (and will likely continue to) because of disagreements on what his alignment should be.

Note: I posted here because the discussion was deemed OT for that thread.

I always find it frustrating how Mr Jacobs has such a love of Chaotic Good that it any lawful character has to secretly be evil. It's such a shame that lawful has become silently associated with being entirely morally bankrupt, meanwhile Chaotic good characters can do terrible things with 'Whups, well I didn't mean to' somehow forgiving all.

Evil can be devious and seductive. Chaotic gets a free pass to do as it pleases. Good has to be free thinking and wild or else it's not. Lawful can't be clever, or organized or exert control over others without somehow it being Evil.
It's such a shame.

And just a disclaimer, this isn't a personal attack, he's free to play or create as he fancies, I just disagree with his tastes on a personal level, same as if I were to say I didn't like a movie that he did. I just wish he could take a step back, distance himself as a writer from his own personal preferences and allow others a say in how things go, its obvious there are people at Paizo who have different tastes and could easily create different angles on things. Too many cooks spoil the broth and all that I know, but takes all kinds to make a world.


3 people marked this as a favorite.
The Raven Black wrote:
If the LG deities themselves did not decide to go Mengkare's way, then who is he to believe he knows better ? How can that be LG ?

Because LG can have quite the wide spectrum of philosophies, going from the "Find good in every person" that can be found in Redeemer Paladins, to the "Smite and purge all evil" that is amongst those that follow Ragathiel, to the more grim "Do not offer pity to the truly wicked, but don't kill lightly" of those that would agree with Damerrich.

Every alignment has its own nuances and shades.

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.
BLloyd607502 wrote:
CBDunkerson wrote:
Rysky wrote:
I didn't want to bring this up but I believe I've read before that the reason they're not posting Mengy's alignment is that the developers themselves don't even agree what it should be.

Yes, James Jacobs says over here that they have left it vague (and will likely continue to) because of disagreements on what his alignment should be.

Note: I posted here because the discussion was deemed OT for that thread.

I always find it frustrating how Mr Jacobs has such a love of Chaotic Good that it any lawful character has to secretly be evil. It's such a shame that lawful has become silently associated with being entirely morally bankrupt, meanwhile Chaotic good characters can do terrible things with 'Whups, well I didn't mean to' somehow forgiving all.

Evil can be devious and seductive. Chaotic gets a free pass to do as it pleases. Good has to be free thinking and wild or else it's not. Lawful can't be clever, or organized or exert control over others without somehow it being Evil.
It's such a shame.

And just a disclaimer, this isn't a personal attack, he's free to play or create as he fancies, I just disagree with his tastes on a personal level, same as if I were to say I didn't like a movie that he did. I just wish he could take a step back, distance himself as a writer from his own personal preferences and allow others a say in how things go, its obvious there are people at Paizo who have different tastes and could easily create different angles on things. Too many cooks spoil the broth and all that I know, but takes all kinds to make a world.

As Tuvarkz noted there's many nuances to each Alignment.

I think you might be reading too much into things if it seems to you that all Lawful=Evil.

That and this isn't matter of Mengy being Lawful and running a eugenics program and therefore evil, it's Mengy running an eugenics program with apparently the best of intentions so is he Good or Evil?


Rysky wrote:
I didn't want to bring this up but I believe I've read before that the reason they're not posting Mengy's alignment is that the developers themselves don't even agree what it should be.

I was trying to intimate this point, above, yeah.

The thing is, though, Mr. Jacob's post above does seem to indicate that he, at least, feels like it will hit print at some point or another.

EDIT: Although, just realizing that the linked post was yesterday means that it is exceptionally unlikely. Whoops.

That said, if it's up to him, I remain semi-confident (alas), that Mengkare would not end up anywhere near the "good" spectrum.

CBDunkerson wrote:

Yes, James Jacobs says over here that they have left it vague (and will likely continue to) because of disagreements on what his alignment should be.

Note: I posted here because the discussion was deemed OT for that thread.

Thanks for the link!


2 people marked this as a favorite.

@ BLloyd607502 - Eh, Mr. Jacobs has written up and/or developed numerous lawful good NPCs who are in fact still good. The various paladin allies from Wrath of the Righteous and Lictor Octavio Sabinus (the LG leader of a Hellknight Order) from Hell's Rebels come to mind.

Aside: I never understood the tarnishing from Dragons Revisited to be an actual physical transformation; rather it was just the colloquial term for metallic dragons who had ceased to be good.

And I'll second what Tuvarkz said about LG not being monolithic.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

There was a whole bit in Dragons Revisited about how a yellow dragon corpse was found, and they thought they had found a new species, but after conferring with other scholars and dragons, it was revealed to be an evil gold dragon's corpse. His scales had tarnished from a burnished gold to a dirty yellow.

Dragons Revisited wrote:

The Yellow Dragon

Amateur scholars of draconic lore are quick to point out that
as there are blue and green dragons, and mixing blue and
yellow pigment creates green, there must be yellow dragons,
forebears of the green dragonkind. Though there are no
known chromatic dragons that were actually yellow, there is
one famous metallic who helped perpetuate the myth.
With each appearance, the fallen gold dragon Kwislingyr’s
scales lost more luster until—upon the discovery of his
corpse—they were reduced to a sickly yellowish hue. His
pallid skin and the subsequent discovery of his emaciated
corpse led to wild speculations of the arrival of a new species
of yellow dragon. Draconic scholars and representatives of
the Aleirt bloodline quickly hushed those rumors when they
confirmed that the so-called “yellow dragon” was actually the
fallen gold, Kwislingyr. Despite their refutations, however,
rumors of yellow dragon sightings still infrequently crop up
all across Avistan, and even more so in Garund.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I stand corrected then. I hadn't remembered that at all.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

No problem. I still use this RP facet in my games to this day.
I thought it was brilliant.

Dark Archive

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Kryzbyn wrote:

No problem. I still use this RP facet in my games to this day.

I thought it was brilliant.

Dragons Revisited also states that gold dragons police their own (and silver dragons as well) to keep each other from tarnishing or sliding into neutrality or evil behaviors. If that were still canon, then Mengkare, being pretty famous, would have to fight off every other gold dragon on the planet, all coming to 'set him straight.'

Since Hermea isn't littered with the corpses of dozens of other gold dragons, then this probably can't be canon anymore (and gold dragons generally don't give a crap about Mengkare and his 'great experiment'), or, shocking twist, the other gold dragons of Golarion have never been to Earth and have no idea that encouraging voluntary participation in a program to produce healthier children equals 'Nazi' (which, since they've never been to Earth, makes sense, since they'd never have heard of a Nazi), and so aren't rushing over to Hermea to concern troll Mengkare about how frought with purple prose slippery slope peril his plan to help humanity is.

(And, from a dragon perspective, it does seem like a pretty short-sighted and martyr-y/selfless idea, to help *another species* that competes with dragonkind for Golarion's finite resources...)

Silver Crusade

6 people marked this as a favorite.

Left field theory: the eugenics program is just an excuse to lure people in, Promise and its inhabitants are Mengy's hoard.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

2 people marked this as a favorite.

Dragons Revisited is not the best book to cite as "canon" source. In the same way I wouldn't recommend using an encyclopedia from 1965 as a "canon" source for building fiction set on modern Earth.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Wasn't stating it as canon, I was asked where I got the tarnish thing from. Didn't know it wasn't a thing anymore.


4 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Rysky wrote:
Left field theory: the eugenics program is just an excuse to lure people in, Promise and its inhabitants are Mengy's hoard.

My dragon disciple/copper draconic sorcerer in a home Runelords campaign viewed the adventuring party and any NPCs we had positive dealings with as her 'people hoard', took the Leadership feat, had massive charisma, and she'd do just about anything for anyone 'in her hoard'.

So yes, can totally see this.

Verdant Wheel

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Hmmm ...

Adult Dog Int = 2

Adult Human Int = 10

Adult Gold Dragon Int = 20

So this means dog breeders are evil ?


2 people marked this as a favorite.

To be fair, some of them actually are.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Yes. Dog breeding has taken a decidedly dark turn in recent decades, with people breeding on what dogs look like rather than health and intelligence and other things needed for a dog meant to work in some fashion. As usual, this makes for sellable pups... But with awful genetic disorders, behavioural issues and so on. It turns out inbreeding really is not a good idea - who knew???

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Sissyl wrote:
Yes. Dog breeding has taken a decidedly dark turn in recent decades, with people breeding on what dogs look like rather than health and intelligence and other things needed for a dog meant to work in some fashion. As usual, this makes for sellable pups... But with awful genetic disorders, behavioural issues and so on. It turns out inbreeding really is not a good idea - who knew???

But that isn't what Mengkare is doing. He is breading health, intelligence, and beauty and then raising them to bring out their best qualities. (I know you didn't actually say that he was an evil breeder, it just felt like this needed to be said.)

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Zhangar wrote:
My own hunch is that Mengkare is actually LG (though a dragon's LG can be kind of alien to a human's LG)

Isn't that impossible because in Pathfinder Good and Evil are objective cosmic forces, so LG is same for everyone even though it has nuances?

...Also, I'm disturbed at how many people think eugenics and elitism is Good aligned :D

Anyway, Dragon Revisited has tons of things that aren't canon: Sin & Virtue dragons, Abomination dragons(metallic & chromatic dragon crossbreeds), humour dragons, mineral dragons, Thaumaturgic dragons, Tiamat... Thats at least what I found from pathfinder wiki :D


1 person marked this as a favorite.
CorvusMask wrote:
Zhangar wrote:
My own hunch is that Mengkare is actually LG (though a dragon's LG can be kind of alien to a human's LG)

Isn't that impossible because in Pathfinder Good and Evil are objective cosmic forces, so LG is same for everyone even though it has nuances?

...Also, I'm disturbed at how many people think eugenics and elitism is Good aligned :D

Anyway, Dragon Revisited has tons of things that aren't canon: Sin & Virtue dragons, Abomination dragons(metallic & chromatic dragon crossbreeds), humour dragons, mineral dragons, Thaumaturgic dragons, Tiamat... Thats at least what I found from pathfinder wiki :D

Remember that eugenics in this situation isn't 1) forced upon the unwilling (People aren't abducted to Hermea, and can choose not to follow with it; in which case they are allowed to leave. There's the rumors of the burnt boats on the shores, but that might be Mengkare being overprotective of his project against external forces that would try and infiltrate/destroy it), 2) isn't chosen from subjectively chosen traits but what approaches as much as possible for objectivity in what is best.

Additionally, this is not much elitism, but rather a strongly meritocratic system-the "elite" is not a static group. The best get rewarded according to their own merits, which is pretty much what fairness is all about.

By themselves, these are Neutral concepts, which if Mengkare is applying for good purposes, result in good actions.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Draco Bahamut wrote:

Hmmm ...

Adult Dog Int = 2

Adult Human Int = 10

Adult Gold Dragon Int = 20

So this means dog breeders are evil?

I think there's a pretty clear difference between two sapient species (even if one is unilaterally much more intelligent than the other) and one sapient species, one that is not.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
CorvusMask wrote:
I'm disturbed at how many people think eugenics and elitism is Good aligned :D

I breed a new type of dog that are hardy, loyal and perfect for sheep herding, in a world where sheep herders live incredibly dangerous lives. I also breed a new type of sheep that can survive in areas that no other sheep can and be saved twice as often, clothing thousands.

Am I a bad person?

I take my money from dog breeding and start a University, allowing the best and brightest of the Sheep herders sons to uplift themselves, become doctors, teachers for others, so on so forth, I don't have enough money to teach everyone
Is it morally right for me, to take on a child that I know cannot be taught and will never be a good doctor, denying some other child a chance to save hundreds if not thousands of lives over a lifetime, so I can feel good about myself because hey, I'm not an elitist at least!

Would it be morally wrong to stop a Lamashtu cult who are breeding monsters in their wombs, because hey, that's their choice and that's, in its own way, Eugenics.

That's life, that's the dreadful algebra of necessity, you take the numbers and at the end of the day a decision has to be made. It's cold, but its the only way to do any good in the long term.

Golarion is a world of danger, death and destruction in which (And this is very important) eugenics works, as proven by the Aboleths managing to breed a super-breed of humanity who created a mega-empire that was aeons ahead of the now watered down people of the neo-dark-age.

Elitism and Eugenics is Lawful, not evil, its organized, its community good orientated, so on.

Zhangar wrote:
Eh, Mr. Jacobs has written up and/or developed numerous lawful good NPCs who are in fact still good. The various paladin allies from Wrath of the Righteous and Lictor Octavio Sabinus (the LG leader of a Hellknight Order) from Hell's Rebels come to mind.

I will admit, Lictor Sabinus is an absurdly cool character, I was so happy when he popped up. I'm happily wrong on that one if Mr Jacobs designed him.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

5 people marked this as a favorite.

Yeah, as folks have pointed out, I feel that my record on designing and requesting/developing lawful good characters is pretty evident. Among the lawful good characters I've had a strong hand in designing or having done significant development work would be Lictor Sabinus, Irabeth, Queen Galfery, the fact that there's such a strong tradition of paladins who serve Abadar (who by all rights should NOT have that big of a paladin segment of his church, being lawful neutral), and more... all the way back to Burnt Offerings, which features the first officially gay character to appear in Pathfinder—a man who is also a paladin.

It's true that I prefer chaotic characters, be they good, neutral, or evil, but I also prefer characters to behave according to their alignments. I'm not a fan of characters who behave outside of their alignments, as a general rule, and unless those characters are being presented at the VERY MOMENT where they're having a change of heart and drifting from one alignment to the other... it's best to have them be labeled by the precise alignment that they are acting like.

For the record: I do NOT have any problem whatsoever with Mengkare or Promise. I think it's an incredibly intriguing and fascinating part of the setting, and one that's incredibly well-written and imaginative. The only problem with it is that, as written, Mengkare's actions are not those of a lawful good creature in my opinion, and so if we were to ever feature him in any context in which we'd stat him up (even with a short stat block), such as in an adventure or a sourcebook all about Hermea, we'd have to nail down his alignment, and that would upset some folks because I, fundamentally, do not believe that controlling the aspects of a person's social life is good.

It's lawful. But not good. Because for me it comes way too creepy close to eugenics and the whole 'breeding a master race' thing for my comfort. Obviously some folks disagree, but I'm the one being paid by Paizo's management and owners to make creative decisions about the world's content.

And I'm not interested in risking that job by being the guy who says, in public, something that the internet can then champion as "Paizo thinks eugenics is a good thing!" Because that's one step away from an even more ridiculous and offensive argument that I really don't want to see happen. No thanks.

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Echo Vining wrote:
Draco Bahamut wrote:

Hmmm ...

Adult Dog Int = 2

Adult Human Int = 10

Adult Gold Dragon Int = 20

So this means dog breeders are evil?

I think there's a pretty clear difference between two sapient species (even if one is unilaterally much more intelligent than the other) and one sapient species, one that is not.

Indeed. Sapient species have rights in a way non-sapient species do not. Killing a dog for food isn't inherently Evil. Killing a human for food is...even if you're a Dragon. Ditto breeding them for specific traits without informed consent.

Also, there aren't any non magically enhanced dogs with Int 10. non magically enhanced humans can have Int 28. So even if sapience isn't a factor...smart humans are well within the Gold Dragon range.

Really using dog breeding as an example is so deeply inaccurate and inapplicable it defies description.

Now, as for whether eugenics is entirely Evil...no, not really. If your goal is to legitimately improve the lives of everyone on Earth and you get people's informed consent to arrange who they have kids with...I can't see an interpretation of this where that's actually Evil behavior. It's certainly Lawful in an especially hierarchical way, but Evil? Not inherently. It's a terrible idea without a really good idea of exactly how genetics work, but 'terrible idea' and 'Evil' aren't the same thing.

Now, as to whether Mengkare specifically is Evil or Neutral...that's hard to say. If his goals and methods really are all aboveboard, he's probably Good (one could argue misguided, but Good nonetheless), if his goals and methods are shadier, even just to the extent of eventually wanting his 'perfect' people to rule over others, he's more likely somewhere more southerly on the alignment spectrum.

Since we don't know the answer to that, we don't have any meaningful evidence of his Alignment.

Liberty's Edge

2 people marked this as a favorite.
James Jacobs wrote:
For the record: I do NOT have any problem whatsoever with Mengkare or Promise. I think it's an incredibly intriguing and fascinating part of the setting, and one that's incredibly well-written and imaginative. The only problem with it is that, as written, Mengkare's actions are not those of a lawful good creature in my opinion, and so if we were to ever feature him in any context in which we'd stat him up (even with a short stat block), such as in an adventure or a sourcebook all about Hermea, we'd have to nail down his alignment, and that would upset some folks because I, fundamentally, do not believe that controlling the aspects of a person's social life is good.

As mentioned above, if you make him a bit Mythic (3 Tiers) and give him Beyond Morality you can actually stat him without revealing this.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
James Jacobs wrote:
It's lawful. But not good. Because for me it comes way too creepy close to eugenics and the whole 'breeding a master race' thing for my comfort.

Eugenics itself is not the problem. We've been practising it since the invention of sex. So do animals for that matter. We choose our mates in at least for part for what kind of children we would get out of mating. Is he strong? Is she wise? Is he/she healty? Do they carry the genetic chance for Tay Sachs, Sicke-cell anemia? etc.

Evil comes in the treatment of people as things... or the discrimination based on genetic profilling as in the movie "Gattaca". But there isn't anything with Eugenics per say, jut how in some cases, the way it's practised.

Dragons are as far above humans as humans are above dogs. But we see no evil in dog breeding as long as no animal cruelties are practised. In that same vein there is no evil in breeding for a better strain of human... again as long as no evil acts are done in the process. And it's all done with the initial consent of the emigree.

I'm reminded of this line from Dragonstar. "Yes the gold dragons are good. But it's good from a dragon's perspective."


1 person marked this as a favorite.
James Jacobs wrote:
It's lawful. But not good. Because for me it comes way too creepy close to eugenics and the whole 'breeding a master race' thing for my comfort. Obviously some folks disagree, but I'm the one being paid by Paizo's management and owners to make creative...

I think that's an entirely fair position to take, Mr Jacobs. I'd disagree and say it isn't intrinsically evil either but I guess that's just the point where our personal opinions diverge.

Just out of interest, what's your position on designer babies, or artificial insemination and that whole branch of science coming up?
I'm guessing the difference there being that its the parents choice and so on?

Liberty's Edge

2 people marked this as a favorite.

I'd actually say a better case could be made for Aroden having pursued a 'master race' philosophy than Mengkare. Aroden promoted Azlanti descendants above all others. Mengkare accepts members of all ethnicities, and even some non-humans. Again, Promise strikes me as closer to the American 'melting pot' philosophy than 'master race' thinking.

That said, Mengkare's belief that he can 'fix' humans is both arrogant and foolish. Setting himself up as an autocrat to enforce this impossible vision would eventually lead to either abandoning the inevitably failed project or ever more tyrannical levels of control.

The problem isn't 'master race' thinking (note: Promise continues to accept outsiders) or even controlled breeding (though there are elements of that)... it's the belief that human nature can be re-written.


^ Give a round of applause to Mal and the Browncoats, everybody! :D

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
CBDunkerson wrote:
I'd actually say a better case could be made for Aroden having pursued a 'master race' philosophy than Mengkare. Aroden promoted Azlanti descendants above all others. Mengkare accepts members of all ethnicities, and even some non-humans. Again, Promise strikes me as closer to the American 'melting pot' philosophy than 'master race' thinking.

This is true. Note, however, that Aroden was explicitly LN, which explains the lack of controversy over him maybe being Good (since he explicitly wasn't). He had good qualities, but this one wasn't among them.

CBDunkerson wrote:

That said, Mengkare's belief that he can 'fix' humans is both arrogant and foolish. Setting himself up as an autocrat to enforce this impossible vision would eventually lead to either abandoning the inevitably failed project or ever more tyrannical levels of control.

The problem isn't 'master race' thinking (note: Promise continues to accept outsiders) or even controlled breeding (though there are elements of that)... it's the belief that human nature can be re-written.

This, however, is pretty indisputably true...assuming he's aiming for such a change. If he's just playing the long game hoping for a moderate increase in general capability, with magic and centuries to work he might actually manage it.

If he's trying to really change how people work via breeding, then yeah he's basically doomed to fail. If he's Good, you can take the tack that he means well, and unlike the Alliance in Serenity is trying to use moral means to get there...but he'll still fail. And, since he's Good abandon that aspect of the project (he might keep the nation going without that aspect).

If he's not Good, then yes indeed, failure in the project will almost assuredly lead to tyrannical badness.


CBDunkerson wrote:

I'd actually say a better case could be made for Aroden having pursued a 'master race' philosophy than Mengkare. Aroden promoted Azlanti descendants above all others. Mengkare accepts members of all ethnicities, and even some non-humans. Again, Promise strikes me as closer to the American 'melting pot' philosophy than 'master race' thinking.

That said, Mengkare's belief that he can 'fix' humans is both arrogant and foolish. Setting himself up as an autocrat to enforce this impossible vision would eventually lead to either abandoning the inevitably failed project or ever more tyrannical levels of control.

The problem isn't 'master race' thinking (note: Promise continues to accept outsiders) or even controlled breeding (though there are elements of that)... it's the belief that human nature can be re-written.

Why not? that's the whole concept of breeding dogs for certain qualities.

"See that couple over there? You’re the puppy."

--Missy to Clara. "The Magician's Apprentice".

Paizo Employee Creative Director

4 people marked this as a favorite.
Deadmanwalking wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
For the record: I do NOT have any problem whatsoever with Mengkare or Promise. I think it's an incredibly intriguing and fascinating part of the setting, and one that's incredibly well-written and imaginative. The only problem with it is that, as written, Mengkare's actions are not those of a lawful good creature in my opinion, and so if we were to ever feature him in any context in which we'd stat him up (even with a short stat block), such as in an adventure or a sourcebook all about Hermea, we'd have to nail down his alignment, and that would upset some folks because I, fundamentally, do not believe that controlling the aspects of a person's social life is good.
As mentioned above, if you make him a bit Mythic (3 Tiers) and give him Beyond Morality you can actually stat him without revealing this.

I didn't mention this the first time because I didn't want to get into it... but "Beyond Morality" is my absolute least favorite thing in Mythic. It might be my least favorite thing we've published, frankly. I put too much value on the alignment system, I guess, to be able to enjoy or even comprehend the use of the Beyond Morality ability.

So... no thanks. That, to me, is the worst possible solution.

(And regardless of that, Mengkare isn't a mythic character so it's a moot point anyway.)

Paizo Employee Creative Director

1 person marked this as a favorite.
BLloyd607502 wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
It's lawful. But not good. Because for me it comes way too creepy close to eugenics and the whole 'breeding a master race' thing for my comfort. Obviously some folks disagree, but I'm the one being paid by Paizo's management and owners to make creative...

I think that's an entirely fair position to take, Mr Jacobs. I'd disagree and say it isn't intrinsically evil either but I guess that's just the point where our personal opinions diverge.

Just out of interest, what's your position on designer babies, or artificial insemination and that whole branch of science coming up?
I'm guessing the difference there being that its the parents choice and so on?

No comment. I kinda feel like I've said too much on this thread already. It makes me somewhat uncomfortable to share political or religious views online, because in today's society, it makes it too easy to give someone who disagrees with you what they need to make your online life (and thus actual life) a living hell. It'd be less of an issue (maybe even a non-issue) for me if I weren't something of a public figure in an industry that over the past few years has been wracked with hate, at least as the context of these boards goes.

Anyway... I've stated my case. I don't see how my continued presence here can be much of a help, so I'll back out of the thread and let folks chat away about how they handle Hermea/Mengkare in their home games.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
James Jacobs wrote:
Yeah, as folks have pointed out, I feel that my record on designing and requesting/developing lawful good characters is pretty evident. Among the lawful good characters I've had a strong hand in designing or having done significant development work would be Lictor Sabinus, Irabeth, Queen Galfery, the fact that there's such a strong tradition of paladins who serve Abadar (who by all rights should NOT have that big of a paladin segment of his church, being lawful neutral), and more... all the way back to Burnt Offerings, which features the first officially gay character to appear in Pathfinder—a man who is also a paladin.

I've got to re-read that book. I feel like a list should be made for those who are interested in these things but can find the characters even when they're running the game. The diversity of this setting is a great thing.

Dark Archive

1 person marked this as a favorite.
CBDunkerson wrote:

I'd actually say a better case could be made for Aroden having pursued a 'master race' philosophy than Mengkare. Aroden promoted Azlanti descendants above all others. Mengkare accepts members of all ethnicities, and even some non-humans. Again, Promise strikes me as closer to the American 'melting pot' philosophy than 'master race' thinking.

That said, Mengkare's belief that he can 'fix' humans is both arrogant and foolish. Setting himself up as an autocrat to enforce this impossible vision would eventually lead to either abandoning the inevitably failed project or ever more tyrannical levels of control.

The problem isn't 'master race' thinking (note: Promise continues to accept outsiders) or even controlled breeding (though there are elements of that)... it's the belief that human nature can be re-written.

The fiddly bits I see as problematic is with the base assumption that healthier and likely prettier people, 'better' physically and even intellectually, are necessarily going to be 'better' morally or ethically. It's the old 'if you're ugly/fat/old and wrinkly, you must be evil' fantasy trope, associating physical appearance and / or bad health with a person's morality (or lack thereof), writ large.

It could be intriguing if Mengkare is personally spreading the rumors that he's burning up dissidents and whatnot (since it's literally the stupidest thing he could actually be doing, given his superhuman Int, Wis and Cha scores, amazing magical powers, and skill ranks in stuff like Diplomacy better than any human on the planet), under the assumption that the best thing he can do for humanity is to encourage them to break free from even his own benevolent tyranny and shape their own future as a species, since, like democracy, a moral / ethical future can't be handed to someone by a third party (or, worse, imposed upon those who weren't seeking it), it has to be actively sought out and embraced and fought for by those who will carry it forward.

Mengkare setting himself up as the big villain that humanity has to overcome (he may or may not fake his death or allow himself to be slain, content to move on to the afterlife, having achieved his life's goal, at the big finale, depending on how it plays out) to flourish on it's own terms, free of machinations from Aboleths, 'Azlanti gods of Humanity' or dragons, could be an interesting endgame, and be a way to reconcile a good Mengkare, and the various shadier sounding things reputed to be going on (and questionable base assumptions about 'better people' being as simple as 'healthier prettier smarter people').


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Set wrote:
CBDunkerson wrote:

I'd actually say a better case could be made for Aroden having pursued a 'master race' philosophy than Mengkare. Aroden promoted Azlanti descendants above all others. Mengkare accepts members of all ethnicities, and even some non-humans. Again, Promise strikes me as closer to the American 'melting pot' philosophy than 'master race' thinking.

That said, Mengkare's belief that he can 'fix' humans is both arrogant and foolish. Setting himself up as an autocrat to enforce this impossible vision would eventually lead to either abandoning the inevitably failed project or ever more tyrannical levels of control.

The problem isn't 'master race' thinking (note: Promise continues to accept outsiders) or even controlled breeding (though there are elements of that)... it's the belief that human nature can be re-written.

The fiddly bits I see as problematic is with the base assumption that healthier and likely prettier people, 'better' physically and even intellectually, are necessarily going to be 'better' morally or ethically. It's the old 'if you're ugly/fat/old and wrinkly, you must be evil' fantasy trope, associating physical appearance and / or bad health with a person's morality (or lack thereof), writ large.

It could be intriguing if Mengkare is personally spreading the rumors that he's burning up dissidents and whatnot (since it's literally the stupidest thing he could actually be doing, given his superhuman Int, Wis and Cha scores, amazing magical powers, and skill ranks in stuff like Diplomacy better than any human on the planet), under the assumption that the best thing he can do for humanity is to encourage them to break free from even his own benevolent tyranny and shape their own future as a species, since, like democracy, a moral / ethical future can't be handed to someone by a third party (or, worse, imposed upon those who weren't seeking it), it has to be actively sought out and embraced and fought for by those who will carry it forward.

Mengkare...

God, that'd be a fantastic AP, he's intentionally organizing a Kingdom with its own incredible advancements and infrastructure, breeding heroes capable of defeating him, so on, so forth.

In order to introduce the concept of the consent of the governed
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consent_of_the_governed
To Golarion, by way of the overthrowing of a Tyrant.
Himself.

Community & Digital Content Director

4 people marked this as a favorite.

Removed a post and response to it. Deliberately antagonistic and personally abusive comments directed at any Paizo employee aren't OK.


I'm just going to repost this here since it was in an inappropriate thread before:

Personally, I feel like it is very likely that Mengkare could be being influenced or controlled by the Aboleth. Some of the stuff he's doing is *very* similar to the Aboleth's influence upon the Azlanti. Plus, his dislike of the gods Aboleth-like as well.

The plus side of him being Aboleth controlled is that it sidesteps most of the alignment drama ;)


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Zhangar wrote:
Mindblank thwarts all attempts to gather info through divination magic, meaning it trumps stuff like legend lore, commune, etc.

Not to mention foiling wish and miracle. The number of spells in existence that can do that are few. Mind blank is amazing. Especially since it's a fire and forget after you're done prepping spells for the day.

Mengkare's alignment was noted as "Lawful ShutUpMark" on that Reddit AMA, by the by.

Set wrote:
The fiddly bits I see as problematic is with the base assumption that healthier and likely prettier people, 'better' physically and even intellectually, are necessarily going to be 'better' morally or ethically.

It's noted in the Hermea details from ISWG, off the top of my head, that Mengkare/Hermea puts a lot of effort into the education and testing of young Hermeans. Neglecting philosophy, ethics, and morality, at least in the educational institutions of Hermea, seems like a rather glaring flaw.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Though he's been kept deliberately ambiguous, I suspect that there is even education about chaotic and evil elements (perhaps without any bias, even).

Failing to instruct one's 'students' on such things means they'd be vulnerable to their influences in the future, with no ability to recognize the signs.

But admitting that yes, there is evil and chaos in the world, that'd be a huge enlightened step (dangerous, it could backfire in the long run) that could spur folks to be even more lawful and good.

Executive Editor

5 people marked this as a favorite.
Alleran wrote:
"Lawful ShutUpMark" .

It should be noted that this is the alignment of many of us here at Paizo as well. If you cast detect shutupmark in the Paizo offices, you'd be overwhelmed by the auras everywhere.

Paizo Employee Developer

3 people marked this as a favorite.
James Sutter wrote:
Alleran wrote:
"Lawful ShutUpMark" .
It should be noted that this is the alignment of many of us here at Paizo as well. If you cast detect shutupmark in the Paizo offices, you'd be overwhelmed by the auras everywhere.

Overwhelmed schmoverwhelmed. I have permanent mind blank in effect for this sort of thing. La la la la la I can't hear you la la la la la la la.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
James Sutter wrote:
Alleran wrote:
"Lawful ShutUpMark" .
It should be noted that this is the alignment of many of us here at Paizo as well. If you cast detect shutupmark in the Paizo offices, you'd be overwhelmed by the auras everywhere.

I believe one would be stunned for a round if they were Chaotic ShutUpMark.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Mengkare has humans in a petri dish.

I'm sure his intentions are good.
I'm sure the end product has the potential for greatness.

This does not change the fact that he is very clinically limiting and directing the lives of his test tube subjects.

There's someone else in Golarion's universe who believes that human freewill is a royal pain and something that needs curtailing, and he is most decidedly not a nice guy.

I don't know if I'd call Mengkare evil... At least not yet. He doesn't appear to be doing this out of greed, or for any sinister means. I'm sure he really believes he knows best- but his benevolence is a bit cold, and even if he's not the one toasting dissidents/people who don't measure up/whatever, the fact remains that Hermea seems to be something of a gilded cage.

If I were to use him, he'd be Lawful Neutral. His road is paved in good intentions, but I don't know that he's crossed any particular line about his final destination yet. He seems like a scientist more concerned with the integrity of his experiment than with any of the potential moral hangups.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Mengkare's subjects are volunteer subjects, however.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Tuvarkz wrote:
Mengkare's subjects are volunteer subjects, however.

Volunteering to enter a cage is still entering a cage.

51 to 100 of 124 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Lost Omens Campaign Setting / General Discussion / About Promise and Mengkare (possible spoiler?) All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.