Bard Masterpieces and Bardic Performance


Rules Questions

101 to 150 of 903 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | next > last >>

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

Has this been answered by a FAQ yet? I have a skald build that I would really like to have clarification on.

Liberty's Edge

2 people marked this as FAQ candidate.
Sulavan wrote:
I hope that Masterpieces count as something other than a bardic performance, just using the same pool, but this trait loophole strikes me as a tad ridiculous.

I still think the RAI are;

Bardic Performances and Masterpieces are the same thing and one person cannot normally perform two (or more) at the same time. However, 'Virtuoso Performance', 'Shadowbard', 'Symphonic Familiar', etc allow this.

Effects which persist on their own (e.g. w/o 'Lingering Performance') after a performance/masterpiece stops are not then cancelled when a new performance/masterpiece is begun. Suggestions are not cancelled, sleep effects do not end, movement speed from Triple Time continues, et cetera.

The Community-Minded trait only carries morale bonuses two extra rounds, not any and all effects of abilities which include morale bonuses. Raging Song morale bonuses to Str & Con continue, but rage powers do not... unless they happen to grant morale bonuses.

That said, overall it seems as if there are two primary interpretations for each of the three issues above... and if the 'more liberal' interpretation is used for any of the three then masterpieces are relatively viable. I take the 'more liberal' view only on the second issue (i.e. new performances do not cancel persistent effects). Taking the liberal view on two or all three issues could quickly become over-powered IMO.

Another shot at a FAQ response this Friday. Apparently they've got an updated list of the FAQ requests.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

This is my FAQ request song doo-di-doo-do-do
Every bard should sing along doo-di-doo-do-do
Skalds should sing too
while they raise a brew doo-di-doo-do-do

Your courage we live to inspire doo-di-doo-do-do
But we'd like to set the benchmark higher doo-di-doo-do-do
It would be so divine
if we could also triple time doo-di-doo-do-do

Add your own lyrics!


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Well, we now know that Pack Flanking is a combat feat. I'm sure the four people that effected are very happy to know that.

Silver Crusade

I admit to not being THAT concerned about this. As of yet, I haven't experienced any actual table variation. Everybody lets my Triple Time last an hour without issue. Everybody thinks my Symphony of the Elysian Heart stops all other bardic performances.

I'd rather this remains unanswered than that they decide that masterpieces become even LESS useful than they currently are.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Hmm wrote:

This is my FAQ request song doo-di-doo-do-do

Every bard should sing along doo-di-doo-do-do
Skalds should sing too
while they raise a brew doo-di-doo-do-do

Your courage we live to inspire doo-di-doo-do-do
But we'd like to set the benchmark higher doo-di-doo-do-do
It would be so divine
if we could also triple time doo-di-doo-do-do

Add your own lyrics!

Calling thunder from the sky doo-di-doo-do-do

Tempestuous aria, the apple of my eye doo-di-doo-do-do

While courage strong we hope

to stay, bolster us in the fray doo-di-doo-do-do


Jodokai wrote:
Well, we now know that Pack Flanking is a combat feat. I'm sure the four people that effected are very happy to know that.

very! :)

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

It's Friday. How does one tell what the new weekly FAQ is?

Hmm


Mark will usually post it in this thread. Otherwise check the rules threads for a post by the PDT, look at the PDT recent posts for one for today, or look at the FAQ pages for a new one.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Um. What is PDT? Pathfinder Design Team?

And how does one check for new FAQs?

Hmm


PDT is the Pathfinder Design Team.
Are you asking about the last option I said?
Well for that you go to the FAQ pages, and look for a FAQ that wasn't there before today.
If you have a question about any of the options I listed of how to find a new FAQ let me know.

Grand Lodge

Yeah, I'm pretty stoked to see the Pack Flanking FAQ. I wish I knew a good place ot keep track of such things.


Here, and check the dates on the right hand side

Lantern Lodge

I'd like to see a answer too, but maybe we shouldn't jump down Paizo's collective throats over writing a simple answer to a simple question (RE: Pack Flanking) while they try to get a (likely) complicated answer to a more complicated question (RE: This).

Keep up the good work, PDT.


Jayson MF Kip wrote:

I'd like to see a answer too, but maybe we shouldn't jump down Paizo's collective throats over writing a simple answer to a simple question (RE: Pack Flanking) while they try to get a (likely) complicated answer to a more complicated question (RE: This).

Keep up the good work, PDT.

I'm not sure one snarky comment qualifies as "[jumping] down Paizo's collective throat", but in my defense this thread has been here since August and has 176 FAQ requests compared to the Pack Flanking thread I couldn't even find the last time I looked.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

The problem was that the FAQ system was down, plus a lot of the PDT were out for cons or vacation or whatever, just as this thread really got rolling. Also, while this one is a pretty high FAQ count and is bumped to stay near the top of the list, it's also more difficult to answer than the last 3 FAQs we got. The first was something they already "knew" the answer to and could phone in a vote. Making pack flanking a combat feat is a pretty easy maybe intended change that doesn't alter the power much. The stacking FAQ we got most recently was also something I imagine they pretty much already "knew" the answer to.

This question though has some pretty big implications. If you can do them at the same time what is the worse abuse case (probably the bard with a familiar and the shadow bard spell?) and how bad is that? If they can't when would you ever get or use them (only when you're a bard that gives up inspire courage?) And potentially 100 of the FAQ requests are people that want it to work at the same time, how many people does that actually represent and can we do something to make them a little happy if we have to say no? I imagine we'll get this FAQ'd by the end of the year at least because of how popular and how explosive it was getting all the FAQ requests.

Grand Lodge

Chess Pwn wrote:

The problem was that the FAQ system was down, plus a lot of the PDT were out for cons or vacation or whatever, just as this thread really got rolling. Also, while this one is a pretty high FAQ count and is bumped to stay near the top of the list, it's also more difficult to answer than the last 3 FAQs we got. The first was something they already "knew" the answer to and could phone in a vote. Making pack flanking a combat feat is a pretty easy maybe intended change that doesn't alter the power much. The stacking FAQ we got most recently was also something I imagine they pretty much already "knew" the answer to.

This question though has some pretty big implications. If you can do them at the same time what is the worse abuse case (probably the bard with a familiar and the shadow bard spell?) and how bad is that? If they can't when would you ever get or use them (only when you're a bard that gives up inspire courage?) And potentially 100 of the FAQ requests are people that want it to work at the same time, how many people does that actually represent and can we do something to make them a little happy if we have to say no? I imagine we'll get this FAQ'd by the end of the year at least because of how popular and how explosive it was getting all the FAQ requests.

Awesome, I haven't been frequenting the forums as much lately being busy with work and Fallout 4 just coming.. I hadn't noticed that my Pack Flanking request and been addressed.

More on topic, yeah, I'm one of the people that would like to see bards be able to use Masterpieces at the same time they're performing. Right now masterpieces are too situational and usually not worth stopping inspiring over. Currently I don't believe you can do both at once and it's how I play it. Sure, I'll be disappointed because I think doing both would open up new play opportunities, but I'll quickly get over it with no effort because it's just a game and there are already tons of ways to play.


*Sigh* No FAQ this week either?


Their business hours are what, 8-5 west coast time? So they still have ~3.5 hours today before they miss getting a FAQ out today. And I feel a lot of them come later in the day rather than sooner.


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Fourshadow wrote:
*Sigh* No FAQ this week either?

We got last week's FAQ on Monday. It was delayed because they had to add a whole new section to the Advanced Player's Guide FAQ to accommodate it. I wouldn't give up on a FAQ for today yet.

Designer

7 people marked this as a favorite.
Chess Pwn wrote:

The problem was that the FAQ system was down, plus a lot of the PDT were out for cons or vacation or whatever, just as this thread really got rolling. Also, while this one is a pretty high FAQ count and is bumped to stay near the top of the list, it's also more difficult to answer than the last 3 FAQs we got. The first was something they already "knew" the answer to and could phone in a vote. Making pack flanking a combat feat is a pretty easy maybe intended change that doesn't alter the power much. The stacking FAQ we got most recently was also something I imagine they pretty much already "knew" the answer to.

This question though has some pretty big implications. If you can do them at the same time what is the worse abuse case (probably the bard with a familiar and the shadow bard spell?) and how bad is that? If they can't when would you ever get or use them (only when you're a bard that gives up inspire courage?) And potentially 100 of the FAQ requests are people that want it to work at the same time, how many people does that actually represent and can we do something to make them a little happy if we have to say no? I imagine we'll get this FAQ'd by the end of the year at least because of how popular and how explosive it was getting all the FAQ requests.

This post might not be exactly right everywhere (you'd have to be a mind reader to have perfect accuracy), but overall, Chess Pwn is very insightful. We've seen this thread. The underlying question of the minutiae of multiple performances is actually harder than the initial question posed about masterpieces; it must be answered to answer this question, and it potentially has ramifications even for bards with no masterpieces, so we need to get it right.


Do you? Your game is totally bonkers broken, so it doesn't seem like a big deal to me. Just let bards have masterpieces and regular performances


CWheezy wrote:

Do you? Your game is totally bonkers broken, so it doesn't seem like a big deal to me. Just let bards have masterpieces and regular performances

Just because a few elements of the game are "bonkers broken" doesn't mean they should have everything go crazy. I think that's what 3.5 did and caused people to not like it. Having a large part of the game being okay and trying to keep that part okay is a worthy goal.

Liberty's Edge

Mark Seifter wrote:
We've seen this thread. The underlying question of the minutiae of multiple performances is actually harder than the initial question posed about masterpieces; it must be answered to answer this question, and it potentially has ramifications even for bards with no masterpieces, so we need to get it right.

Good to hear.

Thinking on multiple performances w/o masterpieces, my understanding is that the options are;

Virtuoso Performance - Additional performance at cost of 2 bardic performance rounds (BPR) per round. Cannot be used with other means of maintaining multiple performances.
Symphonic Familiar - Additional performance at cost of 2 BPR per round.
Shadowbard - Additional performance at cost of 0 BPR per round. Cannot be used to trigger spells which require a bardic performance to begin/end.

I am not aware of any other 'multiple performance' effects... other than having multiple bards.

From these it seems a 14th level Duettist bard could have three performances active at the same time for a cost of 3 BPR per round. Exquisite Accompaniment (or a Tuned Bowstring) could reduce the cost to 2 BPR per round. Non-Duettist bards are limited to two simultaneous performances using either Virtuoso Performance or Shadowbard.

It isn't clear if these additional performance effects can be used to trigger effects that burn BPR at a rate other than one per round (e.g. Arcane Healer 'Inspiring Healing' or Diva 'Prima Donna') or how that would work (e.g. would a Symphonic Familiar pay 4 BPR to trigger 'Inspiring Healing', would a Shadowbard spell use 'Inspiring Healing' at no cost, et cetera). However, they presumably could be used for those which trigger after a set number of rounds of continuous performance (e.g. core bard 'Soothing Performance').

Also interesting that only Virtuoso Performance states it can't be stacked with other multiple performance effects and only Shadowbard indicates that it can't be used to trigger spells requiring the start/end of a performance. Can the lower level Virtuoso Performance trigger spells that Shadowbard can't? Can a Symphonic Familiar provide the performance start/end trigger for their bardic master to cast a spell?

Adding masterpieces doesn't really change anything IF the above effects work with masterpieces (I assume they do) and masterpieces cannot inherently be used at the same time as performances. If masterpieces are NOT bound by the normal 'one performance at a time' rule then you could presumably have one bardic performance AND one or more masterpieces running simultaneously... or up to three bardic performances and multiple masterpieces using the various additional performance options above. Or maybe there is an (unstated) 'one masterpiece at a time' rule separate from the 'one performance at a time' rule... so you could normally have one of each active. Could a Symphonic Familiar then ALSO have both a performance and a masterpiece active?

Finally, there is the separate question of whether effects which normally persist after the bard stops performing are then cancelled if a new performance/masterpiece is begun. If suggestions, sleep effects, movement speed from Triple Time, et cetera are not cancelled when a new performance is begun then a bard could potentially have numerous such persistent effects active in addition to their ongoing performance(s).

So yeah, just a few underlying and connected issues. :]


Chess Pwn wrote:
CWheezy wrote:

Do you? Your game is totally bonkers broken, so it doesn't seem like a big deal to me. Just let bards have masterpieces and regular performances

Just because a few elements of the game are "bonkers broken" doesn't mean they should have everything go crazy. I think that's what 3.5 did and caused people to not like it. Having a large part of the game being okay and trying to keep that part okay is a worthy goal.

A few elements? Wow you are a nice guy haha

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Mark, thank you for coming in here to let us know that this is being looked at. We appreciate that this is a nuanced question, however much we're eagerly awaiting your answer.

Hmm

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

It is Friday, and I just want to sing a song.

Sometimes it's a little hard
To be a bard
With only a few performances to call your own.

A bardic masterpiece
Provides the keys
To new abilities we could share and hone.

Let us bards fulfill our dreams
With simple schemes
Of music layered with a subtler tone.

Thanks for your consideration, Dev Team!
Hmm


Please let me bard.


Cavall wrote:
Please let me bard.

No barding for you. Mainly because you're not an animal.


In the sheets. That's WHY I bard.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Hmm wrote:

It is Friday, and I just want to sing a song.

Sometimes it's a little hard
To be a bard
With only a few performances to call your own.

A bardic masterpiece
Provides the keys
To new abilities we could share and hone.

Let us bards fulfill our dreams
With simple schemes
Of music layered with a subtler tone.

Thanks for your consideration, Dev Team!
Hmm

Bravo! Sing it, Hmm! I'll just "hmm" along.

Grand Lodge

I really hope they go back to James Jacob's original statement that a Masterpiece uses the same pool of resources but is not limited to the "one performance at a time" :)

I'd also be somewhat happy with lingering song being a method to keep a performance active but be able to use a masterpiece... do you have-to, do you have-to, do you have-to let it linger...

I just don't see a Bard or a Skald using ANY of these options in place of their primary performances, especially if starting a primary performance cancels ALL effects of even the long-duration masterpieces...

Currently it's "Why would you give up a spell known or a feat for this?"

:)


well if you went street performer bard you don't really have good performances anyways so maybe then?


James Jacob's original statement is exactly what I hope they will go back to: Same resources, but can have one of each (Bardic Performance and Masterpiece) going at same time. Without careful investments, each performance round increases in value as it can be burned/consumed much more quickly.


I'm the 200th person to FAQ this. This one has to be near the top of the list for a FAQ.


Yeap , but apparently it isnt easy to answer , so they are going to take a very long time anyway.


Nox Aeterna wrote:
Yeap , but apparently it isnt easy to answer , so they are going to take a very long time anyway.

They already HAVE taken a long time. The OP was August 31st. Yikes.


Fourshadow wrote:
Nox Aeterna wrote:
Yeap , but apparently it isnt easy to answer , so they are going to take a very long time anyway.
They already HAVE taken a long time. The OP was August 31st. Yikes.

Guess you weren't aware of the "how does die increases work?" question that took YEARS to get answered. Does a bloodrages Bloodline work with Dragon Disciple was asked as soon as the play-test for bloodrager came out and I think it wasn't until the errata of the ACG that they finally issued a FAQ about that. So 4 months isn't really all that long in FAQ time.

Plus a lot of the time is accounted for having the system crash and then the holidays, so really it's less than 4 months worth of time.


Chess Pwn wrote:
Fourshadow wrote:
Nox Aeterna wrote:
Yeap , but apparently it isnt easy to answer , so they are going to take a very long time anyway.
They already HAVE taken a long time. The OP was August 31st. Yikes.

Guess you weren't aware of the "how does die increases work?" question that took YEARS to get answered. Does a bloodrages Bloodline work with Dragon Disciple was asked as soon as the play-test for bloodrager came out and I think it wasn't until the errata of the ACG that they finally issued a FAQ about that. So 4 months isn't really all that long in FAQ time.

Plus a lot of the time is accounted for having the system crash and then the holidays, so really it's less than 4 months worth of time.

But did either of those have so many FAQ requests in so little time?

Granted, the Christmas and New Years break...


The final "how does die increases work?" thred ended up with 566 FAQ requests. And that isn't counting the many, many threads on the topic that preceded that one. I think it is the record-holder. I don't know if it got to 200 faster than this thread, but I would be surprised if it didn't.


I have never had any trouble understanding the "die increases". This is quite different. We were allowed to do things one way originally, then suddenly "nope, sorry, not allowed anymore". And to my mind, there was no explanation behind the switch. It was as if they thought "Oh, that must be nerfed!" But, it already has a built in nerf: the finite amount of performance available! You have to focus on higher Charisma, feats/traits to boost your bardic performance rounds. It's already balanced: If you want more power out of your bardic performance, you have to pay the piper!


Fourshadow wrote:
I have never had any trouble understanding the "die increases". This is quite different. We were allowed to do things one way originally, then suddenly "nope, sorry, not allowed anymore". And to my mind, there was no explanation behind the switch. It was as if they thought "Oh, that must be nerfed!" But, it already has a built in nerf: the finite amount of performance available! You have to focus on higher Charisma, feats/traits to boost your bardic performance rounds. It's already balanced: If you want more power out of your bardic performance, you have to pay the piper!

If you're talking about JJ's posts, his second post wasn't an "oops, better nerf" but an "I misunderstood and gave the wrong answer, it's always been only one." And he's not a rules guy, and definitely not official. So the rules have always been, only one performance and masterpieces are performances and thus use the same source.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Chess, I interpreted JJ's second post differently. I think that is why we need this FAQ. It really doesn't seem clear at all.

Hmm


That would make it kind of a silly choice to me , since many , many masterpieces would become pretty much trash unless you are one of the few who trade the main performances of the bard out.

With that said , a majority of feats for example are also usually trash ... so i guess it would make sense for the devs at least to make masterpieces equal to them.

Heh pick one of these 4/5 , the other 30? Those you can pretend are not there.


Fourshadow wrote:
I have never had any trouble understanding the "die increases".

If that is true then I am very impressed. Hundreds of experienced gamers, including members of the design team itself, struggled with that one for a long time. The design team eventually ended up resolving the various rules conflicts using models proposed in the thread that I linked to. Are you saying that you were already using that exact progression table before even the PDT knew what it would look like? That's amazing.

Sovereign Court

FAQ'ed. Favorited. Dotted.

When I first came across Masterpieces I thought, "neat", and reworked my bard to swap a bunch of spells for about 6 or 7 "neat" Masterpieces.

When I showed up at the next game and tried them (i.e. implementation time!) I found them a miserable fail overall. The GM allowed me to put all my known spells back the way they were previously.

If Masterpieces had wording such as "All Masterpieces can be started and maintained as a free action, at a cost of bardic performance rounds listed under each Masterpiece, in addition to the cost of any other bardic performance already in effect in a given round, unless otherwise mentioned" I think it would go a long way to improve them. Those that need longer to activate "i.e. must dance 1 min and pay 5 rounds of bardic perf to activate and effects last for one hour per bard level" should clearly state that the Masterpiece no longer counts as bardic performance for any purposes whatsoever (it's just that you pay the cost, and the effects are lasting, like casting a spell with a 10 min casting time that has lingering effects the rest of the day, like Heroes' Feast)

IMO they should all be reworked as magical enchantments for musical instruments (i.e. "whenever the instrument is used as part of a bardic performance, the following effects can be activated, X times per day)


So this might get a FAQ today. Mark said today's FAQ was answering a question "do the rules really work this way?" Which could mean this one if the answer is no.

Silver Crusade

Chess Pwn wrote:
So the rules have always been, only one performance and masterpieces are performances and thus use the same source.

Just for the record (mostly in case somebody looks at just the end of the thread) it is NOT at all clear that the rules state that. I think they don't. Not going to rehash the argument, just pointing out that this is a FAQ since the rules are unclear.


Sigh. The wait continues....

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Bards, bards, bards...
Sing with Hope
"Is there a FAQ?"
Then sigh. Nope.

101 to 150 of 903 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Bard Masterpieces and Bardic Performance All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.