Bard Masterpieces and Bardic Performance


Rules Questions

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CBDunkerson wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
Zaister wrote:
CBDunkerson wrote:
shroudb wrote:
Triple time works either way, since it's duration is longer than the activation
Not if it gets cancelled the moment you use any other bardic performance (i.e. see question 2).
To my understanding, nothing in the rules really indicates it would.
to my understanding, everything in the rules really indicates it would. :)

RAW for the Lingering Performance feat certainly say that:

"The bonuses and penalties from your bardic performance continue for 2 rounds after you cease performing. Any other requirement, such as range or specific conditions, must still be met for the effect to continue. If you begin a new bardic performance during this time, the effects of the previous performance immediately cease."

However, given that the RAW for bardic performance itself do NOT say the same and the fact that it just doesn't make any sense (e.g. Lingering Performance becomes a massive self-nerf), I have taken RAI here to be that performances which normally end when the bard stops performing continue for two rounds UNLESS the bard starts another performance... while effects which normally continue after the bard stops performing are not impacted.

The Bardic Performance text however does say "A bard cannot have more than one bardic performance in effect at one time." If the term effect in this sentence is the game term EFFECT then this sentence basically says the same thing as the lingering performance clause.

Liberty's Edge

Lab_Rat wrote:
The Bardic Performance text however does say "A bard cannot have more than one bardic performance in effect at one time." If the term effect in this sentence is the game term EFFECT then this sentence basically says the same thing as the lingering performance clause.

Right, that's the interpretation behind the second question, but as noted previously, I don't buy it. It is replacing "in effect" with 'effects of'.

The game 'effect' of deadly song is the target being dead. Bards can have that 'effect' and the morale bonus 'effect' from inspire courage at the same time. There is no ban on the 'effects of' bardic performances overlapping... you just can't have two performances "in effect" (i.e. being performed) at the same time.


Yeah. Poor thesaurus choice vs game mechanic. This is one of those cases were bold game mechanic terms would have helped with the interpretation.


So another concept for a buff bard:
Helpful halfling who uses Battle Song of the People's Revolt to hand the whole party Harrying Partners. Now the bard can go around giving his allies aid another bonuses that last the entire round.

So I always wonder what the average number of votes needed to migrate to the top of the list of potential FAQ questions is. I assume that it varies from week to week and that some questions are so good that they may be answered anyway. Still 103 votes is a great job all. Its well beyond my expectations, considering that the last two threads attempting this question garnered 9 and 17 votes.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I would use Triple Time with Inspire Courage, or the Bardic Masterpiece that allows you to give a teamwork feat to your whole team. I'm playing in Kingmaker, and would love to give the whole team a Cavalry Formation feat so that we could all move seamlessly together on our horses in battle.

(I'll have to look up the names of that feat and that masterpiece... My resources aren't near me and Archives of Nethys is down. Sad librarian!)

Hmm

Edited to add: It's Battle Song of the People's Revolt! Thank you, Lab Rat!

Scarab Sages

Hmm wrote:

I would use Triple Time with Inspire Courage, or the Bardic Masterpiece that allows you to give a teamwork feat to your whole team. I'm playing in Kingmaker, and would love to give the whole team a Cavalry Formation feat so that we could all move seamlessly together on our horses in battle.

(I'll have to look up the names of that feat and that masterpiece... My resources aren't near me and Archives of Nethys is down. Sad librarian!)

Hmm

Edited to add: It's Battle Song of the People's Revolt! Thank you, Lab Rat!

Not to hijack, but if you could shoot me any info you saw about the archives being down (length, error message, etc.) I would very much appreciate it. I didn't hear anything about it being down last night, so this is news to me :D

nethys@archivesofnethys.com

Liberty's Edge

In terms of ways to use bardic performances and masterpieces if they don't overlap... I see it more as a way to 'nova'. Something like;

Triple Time + Vindictive Soliloquy, then Inspire courage + Dance of the 23 steps + Clamor of the Heavens + Battle Song of the People's Revolt

Sure, it takes a minute and six performance rounds to set up, and you are burning four bardic performance per round, but for as long as your performance rounds hold out it is an uber buff.


Masterpieces provide options for the archetypes that trade out inspire courage.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
CBDunkerson wrote:

In terms of ways to use bardic performances and masterpieces if they don't overlap... I see it more as a way to 'nova'. Something like;

Triple Time + Vindictive Soliloquy, then Inspire courage + Dance of the 23 steps + Clamor of the Heavens + Battle Song of the People's Revolt

Sure, it takes a minute and six performance rounds to set up, and you are burning four bardic performance per round, but for as long as your performance rounds hold out it is an uber buff.

That sounds great, but the average combat I've been in has been over in 3 rounds or less. Quite honestly, it's unlikely to happen unless it's an army against army boss fight. The more likely scenario is one masterpiece and inspire courage. Or two masterpieces if Triple Time is one of them because that at least has a nice long duration.

Chess Pwn wrote:
Masterpieces provide options for the archetypes that trade out inspire courage.

At the moment, those are the only bards who can actually make good use of them, yes. I'm glad that those bards get an option, but I'm really hoping that this can be something all of us can use.

Hmm

PS 105 FAQ requests and counting!


Hey all! I heard that Paizos FAQ system is having trouble and that they are having issues viewing the order of the FAQs in queue on the backend. So expect delay and be patient.


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

I do not understand those of you who say your conflicts last X rounds maximum. Where is the fun in that?! I would say the GM may not be up-to-snuff if that is the case...not looking to get personal, just there are sooo many things that can happen to blow that "average" way off.

So, I have no problem with the extended set-up that some masterpieces would require. I would just like to be able to have Inspire Courage up at the same time! It simply makes sense.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

Keep in mind that this FAQ jumped very quickly up in numbers and the Devs and Designers still need to have time to discuss what the answers should be, given this is the week after PAX and labor day it may take a bit longer to get some response on this issue, but given how quickly its jumped up the number of FAQ requests I imagine it will come soon.


the longest combat's I've been in were where we had most of the party drop, and I think those lasted 10 rounds or less still.

Liberty's Edge

If you don't want to spend rounds setting up in advance or using buffs you could also 'go nova' with straight up damage. Again, assuming the view that performances and masterpieces don't overlap;

Weird Words (Sound Striker archetype) + Quickening Pulse + Melody of Frightful Death + Dumbshow of Gorroc

That'd be five bardic performance per round for four different damaging effects. Since each of the first three could be maintained as a free action, after starting as a standard/move/swift action depending on level, the full round action needed for Dumbshow each round shouldn't be a problem. Though there is that bit in the rules about GM's deciding how many free actions are 'reasonable'. Drop Dumbshow and you might be able to cast a spell and take a stroll at the same time. Could also swap in 'Depths of the Mountain' to wreck the entire area. Though nothing says overkill quite like 'Song of Extinction'. :]


Just wanted to add my two cents after FAQ'ing this thread.

I love all the masterpiece options, and have also picked up SGG's UO: Bardic Masterpieces to add some more to my repertoire for the WOTR game I'm in. But having a great utility buff like triple time turn into a single round 10' movement buff because I need to start using inspire courage when we're ambushed is pretty frustrating. Being able to maintain a performance and a masterpiece simultaneously would be great, as would having the effects of long-duration masterpieces continue on without affecting (or being affected by) other performances or masterpieces.


CBDunkerson wrote:

If you don't want to spend rounds setting up in advance or using buffs you could also 'go nova' with straight up damage. Again, assuming the view that performances and masterpieces don't overlap;

Weird Words (Sound Striker archetype) + Quickening Pulse + Melody of Frightful Death + Dumbshow of Gorroc

That'd be five bardic performance per round for four different damaging effects. Since each of the first three could be maintained as a free action, after starting as a standard/move/swift action depending on level, the full round action needed for Dumbshow each round shouldn't be a problem. Though there is that bit in the rules about GM's deciding how many free actions are 'reasonable'. Drop Dumbshow and you might be able to cast a spell and take a stroll at the same time. Could also swap in 'Depths of the Mountain' to wreck the entire area. Though nothing says overkill quite like 'Song of Extinction'. :]

Nice! Go sonic/masterpiece nova on the enemy!

It does take 5 rounds to set up, but nothing except Weird Words produces the damage Vindictive Soliloquy does. Takes awhile to set up, but costs nothing other than a standard action to use (and nothing for maintenance).

Silver Crusade

Any word on this being FAQed yet?


FAQing it too.

I hope this gets resolved soon , i plan on making a bard next and honestly , a vast majority of masterpieces are utter crap if this doesnt change.


Nox Aeterna wrote:

FAQing it too.

I hope this gets resolved soon , i plan on making a bard next and honestly , a vast majority of masterpieces are utter crap if this doesnt change.

Preach it! The previous ruling was just fine and well-balanced due to Bardic Performance having being a finite resource. They did it correctly to begin with only to have the reinterpretation gut the whole concept.

Liberty's Edge

Fourshadow wrote:
The previous ruling was just fine and well-balanced due to Bardic Performance having being a finite resource.

IS bardic performance a finite resource? Consider the Tuned Bowstring from Ranged Tactics Toolbox. Fire at least one arrow per round to maintain a performance without expending a round of bardic performance. Combine with various means of creating arrows and you can effectively maintain a performance indefinitely.

It's even PFS legal.

Still costs rounds of performance to start/change and, by my reading, the performances/masterpieces which take multiple rounds to produce an effect would still have the full cost... but maintaining performances is one of the major things which consumes rounds. Throw in the Exquisite Accompaniment (basically the same as the bowstring, but no need to shoot arrows and 1 round per level duration) and Shadowbard (second performance at no round cost) spells and it is plausible for a Bard to be using bardic performance non-stop in (and outside) encounters without ever running out of rounds.


CBDunkerson wrote:
Fourshadow wrote:
The previous ruling was just fine and well-balanced due to Bardic Performance having being a finite resource.

IS bardic performance a finite resource? Consider the Tuned Bowstring from Ranged Tactics Toolbox. Fire at least one arrow per round to maintain a performance without expending a round of bardic performance. Combine with various means of creating arrows and you can effectively maintain a performance indefinitely.

It's even PFS legal.

Still costs rounds of performance to start/change and, by my reading, the performances/masterpieces which take multiple rounds to produce an effect would still have the full cost... but maintaining performances is one of the major things which consumes rounds. Throw in the Exquisite Accompaniment (basically the same as the bowstring, but no need to shoot arrows and 1 round per level duration) and Shadowbard (second performance at no round cost) spells and it is plausible for a Bard to be using bardic performance non-stop in (and outside) encounters without ever running out of rounds.

In order to do that, you will be burning up spells to save on rounds...also a finite resource. It balances.

Grand Lodge

Thanks for pointing out Exquisiste Accompaniment, CB. It looks awesome for Greater Skald's Vigor. Bust out an Extend Rod and it's 80 healing for everyone at level 10. Not bad for a 3rd level spell.


I really would like to see this addressed. So many FAQ requests, yet nary a peep from the powers that be. They must be busy with future creations.

Bards would certainly have more options if Masterpieces could be performed simultaneously with Performances.


"The FAQ process is broken because of stopping the spam bots." Is what we've been told so far.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

The Tuned Bowstring is 18,000 GP. that's a pretty big chunk of bonuses. It's like a +2 weapon, +3 armor and some change.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Any word on whether there's been progress on this? I have a boon to create an Averakan Arbiter. I would love to be able to use a bardic masterpiece to share my teamwork feats with my team while doing some inspiring...

Please... let bardic masterpieces become useful to bards again!


Hmm wrote:

Any word on whether there's been progress on this? I have a boon to create an Averakan Arbiter. I would love to be able to use a bardic masterpiece to share my teamwork feats with my team while doing some inspiring...

Please... let bardic masterpieces become useful to bards again!

Indeed. Let them be an intriguing option across the board rather than a select few. Simultaneous use with Bardic Performance will allow just that.


Chess Pwn wrote:
"The FAQ process is broken because of stopping the spam bots." Is what we've been told so far.

taking 8 weeks to fix a web page issue, when they could discuss, and just make an official post from the PDT account is a piss poor excuse


weekly reminder bump

of more relevance thought, there is the actual activation of bardic masterpieces, which has this to say:

Quote:
Use: This line specifies how many bardic performance rounds the bard must use to activate the masterpiece. In some cases, the bard can extend the duration of the masterpiece by expending additional rounds of bardic performance, just as if it were any other use of bardic performance. The bard expends the listed number of bardic performance rounds when he starts performing the masterpiece; if he is interrupted, the attempt fails and the spent performance rounds are lost.

basically, even if a masterpiece says "1bardic performance round per round"

this just means you have to guestimate about how many rounds you want it to be active, and then spend those.

p.e. i spend 5 rounds and have people's revolt active for 5 rounds.

This could tie in nicely to the whole "effect" "in effect" argument.


So , how is that FAQ coming?

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Nox, the FAQ system came back online last week, so in theory we'll get a new FAQ each Friday. No guarantee when/if THIS one will be answered though.

Fun trick for Skalds: Community Minded trait from Peoples of the Sands. Extends the benefits of morale bonuses for two rounds. So... play one round of Inspired Rage and allies get the Str/Con morale bonuses for three rounds. Then repeat. Triples performance rounds available. Doesn't provide the benefits of any rage powers on the two 'off rounds' (unless the power yields a morale bonus), but also doesn't apply any rage penalties those rounds either (e.g. no AC penalty, can cast spells, etc).

In theory, this can also be used by bards and/or to cycle through three performances / masterpieces to keep three different morale bonuses up continually, but there are only a couple other existing performances / masterpieces which benefit from this at all and none of them are particularly impressive. However, could become a useful trick if we get more options that primarily just provide a morale bonus.


Ic , ty for the info , i do hope this gets answered at some point.

And yeah , that is an interesting trick , i greatly prefer bards to skalds myself , but that does seem worth making atleast one PC to try, ty for the idea.

Grand Lodge

FYI, previously they were posting FAQs every other Friday, not every Friday.


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
claudekennilol wrote:
FYI, previously they were posting FAQs every other Friday, not every Friday.

It may have worked out that way, but I do recall there being a period when we got either a FAQ or an explanation/apology each Friday. I do not recall there being a time when they said there would be no FAQ that Friday because they did one the previous week.


CBDunkerson wrote:

Nox, the FAQ system came back online last week, so in theory we'll get a new FAQ each Friday. No guarantee when/if THIS one will be answered though.

Fun trick for Skalds: Community Minded trait from Peoples of the Sands. Extends the benefits of morale bonuses for two rounds. So... play one round of Inspired Rage and allies get the Str/Con morale bonuses for three rounds. Then repeat. Triples performance rounds available. Doesn't provide the benefits of any rage powers on the two 'off rounds' (unless the power yields a morale bonus), but also doesn't apply any rage penalties those rounds either (e.g. no AC penalty, can cast spells, etc).

In theory, this can also be used by bards and/or to cycle through three performances / masterpieces to keep three different morale bonuses up continually, but there are only a couple other existing performances / masterpieces which benefit from this at all and none of them are particularly impressive. However, could become a useful trick if we get more options that primarily just provide a morale bonus.

no longer applicable as you describe it due to the morale faq

Quote:
Morale effects, unlike fear effects, so far have not had a descriptor or a call-out. Anything that grants a morale bonus is a morale effect. For example, the rage spell grants a morale bonus, so a creature immune to morale effects would be immune to the entire spell, including the –2 penalty to AC.

per this faq, your whole inspiring song is a "morale effect" alongside with all the negatives and all the positives, including rage powers.

This may actually seems helpful, BUT it severly restricts some things like:
spellcasting: assuming the rage persists even if dropped for 2 rounds, ALL the positieves and ALL the negatives remain, so spellcasting is being kept restricted for 2 more rounds

superstition: as above, even if you drop the song, or if someone who has accepted it drops it, the benefits and drawbacks will persist for 2 rounds, meaning they need to keep saving vs those heals.

notice that this happens only for community minded and not for lingering performance, because the trait specifically targets the morale effects of the recipients rather than the effect produced by you like lingering.

Liberty's Edge

shroudb wrote:

no longer applicable as you describe it due to the morale faq

Quote:
Morale effects, unlike fear effects, so far have not had a descriptor or a call-out. Anything that grants a morale bonus is a morale effect. For example, the rage spell grants a morale bonus, so a creature immune to morale effects would be immune to the entire spell, including the –2 penalty to AC.
per this faq, your whole inspiring song is a "morale effect" alongside with all the negatives and all the positives, including rage powers.

I'm not sure that applies. Yes, per the FAQ, inspired rage is a "morale effect"... but the trait doesn't extend 'morale effects'. Rather it only applies to morale bonuses;

"Any morale bonuses you confer upon your allies through your own abilities or spells last 2 additional rounds."

That said, if your interpretation is correct then the trait actually becomes vastly more useful. For example, regular bards could use it with inspire courage to carry over not just the morale bonus to saves, but the entire 'morale effect', including the competence bonus to attack and damage.


CBDunkerson wrote:
shroudb wrote:

no longer applicable as you describe it due to the morale faq

Quote:
Morale effects, unlike fear effects, so far have not had a descriptor or a call-out. Anything that grants a morale bonus is a morale effect. For example, the rage spell grants a morale bonus, so a creature immune to morale effects would be immune to the entire spell, including the –2 penalty to AC.
per this faq, your whole inspiring song is a "morale effect" alongside with all the negatives and all the positives, including rage powers.

I'm not sure that applies. Yes, per the FAQ, inspired rage is a "morale effect"... but the trait doesn't extend 'morale effects'. Rather it only applies to morale bonuses;

"Any morale bonuses you confer upon your allies through your own abilities or spells last 2 additional rounds."

That said, if your interpretation is correct then the trait actually becomes vastly more useful. For example, regular bards could use it with inspire courage to carry over not just the morale bonus to saves, but the entire 'morale effect', including the competence bonus to attack and damage.

i'm pretty sure that the whole thing is now confered, i may be wrong thought.

and yeah, as i said, it becomes more useful, but also has some nasty drawbacks now for skalds (at least my interpetation)


Hmmmm...Community-Minded? Very intriguing little trait, that one. Could band-aid this issue to a large extent. Thank you for bringing it to my attention!


claudekennilol wrote:
FYI, previously they were posting FAQs every other Friday, not every Friday.

No they were posting a FAQ EVERY Friday. Yes they had some exceptions for holidays and such. But the general goal they have had for the last 10+ months is EVERY Friday.

Liberty's Edge

Fourshadow wrote:
Hmmmm...Community-Minded? Very intriguing little trait, that one. Could band-aid this issue to a large extent. Thank you for bringing it to my attention!

Yep. With community-minded, if it works as shroudb suggests, you could cycle through inspire courage, inspire heroics, and another performance/masterpiece with a morale bonus... and effectively have all three maintained for the same one performance round per round that would otherwise be needed to maintain just one. Or, at 7th level or higher, use 'Weird Words' from the Sound Striker archetype as a standard action each round while throwing in inspire courage as a move (or swift at level 13+) action every few rounds.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
CBDunkerson wrote:
Fourshadow wrote:
Hmmmm...Community-Minded? Very intriguing little trait, that one. Could band-aid this issue to a large extent. Thank you for bringing it to my attention!
Yep. With community-minded, if it works as shroudb suggests, you could cycle through inspire courage, inspire heroics, and another performance/masterpiece with a morale bonus... and effectively have all three maintained for the same one performance round per round that would otherwise be needed to maintain just one. Or, at 7th level or higher, use 'Weird Words' from the Sound Striker archetype as a standard action each round while throwing in inspire courage as a move (or swift at level 13+) action every few rounds.

Your 2nd option is EXACTLY what I have been looking for! Happy Day!

'Weird Words', then 'Inspire Courage' and this could even make Masterpieces useful?! Huzzah!

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

That's an interesting trait. I don't have any bards currently for whom it would be useful, but if I ever do create a Skald it would be something to consider.

I keep hoping that they FAQ this one. Bardic Masterpieces are expensive options, but flavorful. It would be nice to see them become relevant for all bards.


Well no luck last week, they went with some chart in Ultimate Equipment. Hopefully this week.


Hmm wrote:

That's an interesting trait. I don't have any bards currently for whom it would be useful, but if I ever do create a Skald it would be something to consider.

I keep hoping that they FAQ this one. Bardic Masterpieces are expensive options, but flavorful. It would be nice to see them become relevant for all bards.

That would indeed be very nice. As is, only a select few are always relevant. If the trait is correctly interpreted, it is a nice compromise...however, it's not cool that all bards would need it to fix these masterpieces.


It seems a little dishonest to me to view Community-Minded as able to break a rule that was clearly intended to stop 2 bard performances running at the same time (and so stop the doubling up that was common in 3.5). That a spell was put in to do it was a surprise, but that it is 4th level makes it require a significant investment, but a trait that can achieve something expressly forbidden in the feat that covers the issue... seems like poor editorial control rather than a good option.

I hope that Masterpieces count as something other than a bardic performance, just using the same pool, but this trait loophole strikes me as a tad ridiculous.


Not that it will matter much but I came to a choice for my own games as far as this goes.

If it requires expenditures of performance to start but none after, it can run side by side a bardic performances.

If it requires a round by round spending it can't.

That's about it. I'm not going to loop hole community minded as it would appear the basics of bardic performance state you can't do that. Trait or not a new performance stops everything from an old one.

Also because it gets into a "rage cycling" type situation and I'm going to avoid that. There's a reason barbarians got unchained.

Lantern Lodge

FAQed. Dotting.


The last I heard regarding the FAQ situation

Mark Seifter wrote:
The tech team still couldn't fix the FAQ Queue, so Robot Chris, in her capacity as Community Glitter-Robot, scraped every FAQ thread up to a certain point by hand and built an Excel file that acts, essentially, as a snapshot of what the FAQ Queue looked like at the time she built it.

Now that they have an actual list of the FAQ's, we may see an FAQ come out soon.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Here's crossing our fingers that we get such a FAQ and can end the confusion.

I really want to be able to use Bard Masterpieces and Bardic Performances together, but even if they rule against us, I just want clarity.


Sulavan wrote:

It seems a little dishonest to me to view Community-Minded as able to break a rule that was clearly intended to stop 2 bard performances running at the same time (and so stop the doubling up that was common in 3.5). That a spell was put in to do it was a surprise, but that it is 4th level makes it require a significant investment, but a trait that can achieve something expressly forbidden in the feat that covers the issue... seems like poor editorial control rather than a good option.

I hope that Masterpieces count as something other than a bardic performance, just using the same pool, but this trait loophole strikes me as a tad ridiculous.

Your "hope" in the last bit of your post was exactly how masterpieces were originally termed. Separate yet dependant on the same source. Why anyone thought that was 'broken' is beyond me. Changing it made most masterpieces very situational if not useless.

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