Bard Masterpieces and Bardic Performance


Rules Questions

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thelemonache wrote:

We have always played that because of the cost (feat or spell) and effect (usually duplicating a spell or a weaker form of a bardic song that takes multiple rounds sometimes) that it reasonably made sense to treat them more like spells. So one bardic, and all the masterpieces you could afford to maintain with your action economy/music rounds

The flip side to this is that you're paying for a spell using a resource that has a much larger pool.

I've played dozens of bards and ran entire AP for bards and skalds and can count maybe 8 times the whole pool ran out, and less than 3 times once 10th level is hit.

That's really what masterpieces are in the first place.

What rage powers are.

What channeling is.

All of these are fixes an issue of having a pool of things you'll use in 3.5 but never completely use up. Turn undead, performance and rage once you hit a certain level would not get used up before spells needed replenishing.

But AOE heals, spell like ability or bonuses to certain actions...

When you're playing something like a human (or more than a few other races) and can take a spell know instead of a hit point, losing a spell known isn't exactly a massive blow, even if it's a level higher.

I wouldn't pay a feat for a masterpiece (unless it was something just amazingly awesome) but losing a spell known so you can cast "spells" from a pool of mix and match points rather than set level numbers? The benefit is already there.

Sorry for the tangent I just feel the benefit of "casting" not using spells is already built in to weighing the cost of masterpieces in the first place.


Cavall wrote:
Sorry for the tangent I just feel the benefit of "casting" not using spells is already built in to weighing the cost of masterpieces in the first place.

But that value changes if you can do them at the same time as inspire courage is going or not. So the question is where's the appropriate balance. Is it okay that they are spells to use whenever that use a different pool than spell slots, or are the spells that are limited on when they can be used.


Yes the value changes. No argument. I just think that stating you're giving up something so it's somehow owed to you that it does work while singing a song is disingenuous. It's purposely ignoring a benefit (not using spells) and saying you're owed something for the trade.

And that's all I'm clarifying here. What the value of the trade is for some players depends on the character the situation and of course the masterpiece. But the one thing that doesn't change is that you're essentially casting a spell using a pool that's often never run out, allowing for extended adventuring days


But perhaps it will run out if you use masterpieces more frequently, at the same time as inspire courage.

Thus you would create an actual opportunity cost for the pool.

I know that with virtuoso performance and soothing tirade our bard is often out at the end of the day at level 13.


Yes. Actually using the pool for other purposes to use it up is the actual point as to why they made it.

Just like how channelling was added on from just turn undead.

That's the point to it.

Silver Crusade

I would like to reply to the whole 'amplified rage makes this overpowered' argument.

I think it doesn't, really, not even from level 7 onwards, where you kan do it in a round, or from level 11 onwards, where greater skald's vigour would mean fast healing 8 for the party, as long as they're adjacent.

I mean, aside from this trick costing 2 performance rounds per actual round, it's hardly the strongest thing out there.

In comparison.
Red skald with cult totem gives allies a lot of extra attacks of opportunity.
Then, at level 7, the red skald can share the rogue talent 'combat trick', so that the allies can choose 'paired opportunists' for even more attacks of opportunity, with bonuses.
And all this at just one performance round per actual round, and starting with a mere move action.

Suddenly amplified rage doesn't look so scary anymore, right? :D

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild, Tales Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber

And you can take Amplified Rage on top of that.

Red Skald?


Red Tongue Skald, probably. Swaps out your post-level 2 versatile performances for rogue talents, among other things.

Silver Crusade

Sorry, Red Tongue skald. An archetype that combines nicely with the fated champion or the urban skald archetypes :)

Edit: ninja!

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild, Tales Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber

Ah, gotcha.


I don't think I ever stated which Position I preferred. In case anyone cares, I support Position #2.

CBDunkerson wrote:
Rory wrote:
The extra standard action (or round) to activate should give something good.
At 7th level, a performance can be started as a move action... so, if simultaneous performances/masterpieces were allowed, it would be entirely possible to fire off two of them each round. Three per round at 13th level.

At level 7, a normal bard can activate Inspire Courage as a move action and has a standard action to do something else, such as activate a masterpiece OR cast Good Hope.

From levels 4-12, the bard activating a bardic performance and a master piece requires an extra standard action (or round). It is a real cost.

CBDunkerson wrote:


Another issue with allowing simultaneous performances/masterpieces is that it would devalue the few abilities which allow this currently. The Duettist Bard's familiar and the Virtuoso Performance spell allow simultaneous performances, but at a higher than normal bardic performance round cost. So why pay extra to do it that way when you can do it all by yourself at a lower cost?

I'm not overly familiar enough with these. Do the abilities you mentioned save the extra standard action (or round) in activation cost?

Improving action economy is exceptionally powerful.


Chess Pwn wrote:

For sure, Just the example was that good hope was a better use than amplified rage for the skald, but when you have 2 spells per day and this is only a mild fight then perhaps throwing down amplified because you have plenty of performance rounds.

Or the one that gives haste, Blazing Rondo, that seems like a much better option than the haste spell, bigger bonuses and a less resource cost.

This is a great example. Haste as a masterpiece is definitely a powerful option.

Blazing Rondo:
- Haste (plus) on 1 all per level
- Standard Action to activate (move action at 7th, etc.)
- Costs: 1 Feat or 1 3rd level Spell Known (min 7th level)

Assuming a CHA of 16, a bard will have 18 rounds of bardic performance at level 7.

Bard A has the Haste spell known.
Bard B picks the Blazing Rondo masterpiece instead.

At level 7:

- Bard A can Haste 2 fights a day for 14 rounds total, has effectively many more Bardic Performance rounds per day for other things, is very limited on 3rd level spell slots

- Bard B can Haste X fights per day for 9 rounds total, is limited on effective rounds of Bardic Performance for other things, has full usage of 3rd level spell slots

At level 9:

- Bard A can Haste 4 fights a day for 36 rounds total, has effectively many more Bardic Performance rounds per day for other things, is limited on 3rd level spell slots

- Bard B can Haste X fights per day for 11 rounds total, is limited on effective rounds of Bardic Performance for other things, has full usage of 3rd level spell slots

I'd definitely say Bard B starts with stronger combat options at level 7, but they fade quickly with levels (3rd and higher spell slots). If other use of Bardic Performance is considered, Bard A will shine.

************************

Which brings up a thought... using Masterpieces simultaneously with Bardic Performance, hence double expenditure of rounds, works to decrease the viability of having multiple masterpieces.

Example: Tack on Triple Time to both bards above. Bard A can use it a lot more carefree than Bard B (who loses rounds of Hasted Inspire Courage awesomeness).

It should thus be the single Masterpiece bard that is the biggest challenge and type to check. Is there any more powerful Masterpiece than Blazing Rondo?


Rory wrote:

I don't think I ever stated which Position I preferred. In case anyone cares, I support Position #2.

CBDunkerson wrote:
Rory wrote:
The extra standard action (or round) to activate should give something good.
At 7th level, a performance can be started as a move action... so, if simultaneous performances/masterpieces were allowed, it would be entirely possible to fire off two of them each round. Three per round at 13th level.

At level 7, a normal bard can activate Inspire Courage as a move action and has a standard action to do something else, such as activate a masterpiece OR cast Good Hope.

From levels 4-12, the bard activating a bardic performance and a master piece requires an extra standard action (or round). It is a real cost.

CBDunkerson wrote:


Another issue with allowing simultaneous performances/masterpieces is that it would devalue the few abilities which allow this currently. The Duettist Bard's familiar and the Virtuoso Performance spell allow simultaneous performances, but at a higher than normal bardic performance round cost. So why pay extra to do it that way when you can do it all by yourself at a lower cost?

I'm not overly familiar enough with these. Do the abilities you mentioned save the extra standard action (or round) in activation cost?

Improving action economy is exceptionally powerful.

But with option 2 he can't. Activating a masterpiece would cancel his inspire courage.

Virtuoso performance allows 2 simultaneous performances to be active although the second is at double pool rounds. Shadow bard creates a duplicate that doesn't cost you bardique rounds but can activate one performance independently. Duettist is similar to virtuoso performance but stacks with it, it allows your familiar to use your barricades music.


AlastarOG wrote:

But with option 2 he can't. Activating a masterpiece would cancel his inspire courage.

This is correct for Position #2.

I was discussing the potential implications of Position #3. If Position #3 can be shown to work okay, which is the position with most freedom, then that's definitely the way to go.

Sorry for the confusion.

AlastarOG wrote:

Virtuoso performance allows 2 simultaneous performances to be active although the second is at double pool rounds. Shadow bard creates a duplicate that doesn't cost you bardique rounds but can activate one performance independently. Duettist is similar to virtuoso performance but stacks with it, it allows your familiar to use your barricades music.

Virtuoso Performance allows the bard to have two actual Bardic Performances (Ex: Inspire Courage AND Dirge of Doom) up and running, which would still have use. Opinion: This is a really niche spell and greatly overpriced in spell level and/or bardic performance round cost.

Shadowbard (nice spell!) allows for an independent Bardic Performance that starts up with the casting of the spell. It should be able to work exactly the same no matter what they determine on this FAQ.

Duettist allows for a familiar to start a performance OR the bard. If either start one, it stops the other's performance. At level 8, they can start the same performance. At level 14, they can start different performances (which is the part that might be explored more in depth). This archetype could work exactly the same no matter what they determine on this FAQ. There might be a question on how many rounds of performance were being used, but at that burn rate, the bard would run out of rounds FAST.


Rory wrote:


Bard A has the Haste spell known.
Bard B picks the Blazing Rondo masterpiece instead.

At level 7:

- Bard A can Haste 2 fights a day for 14 rounds total, has effectively many more Bardic Performance rounds per day for other things, is very limited on 3rd level spell slots

- Bard B can Haste X fights per day for 9 rounds total, is limited on effective rounds of Bardic Performance for other things, has full usage of 3rd level spell slots

At level 9:

- Bard A can Haste 4 fights a day for 36 rounds total, has effectively many more Bardic Performance rounds per day for other things, is limited on 3rd level spell slots

- Bard B can Haste X fights per day for 11 rounds total, is limited on effective rounds of Bardic Performance for other things, has full usage of 3rd level spell slots

I'd definitely say Bard B starts with stronger combat options at level 7, but they fade quickly with levels (3rd and higher spell slots). If other use of Bardic Performance is considered, Bard A will shine.

The thing to consider I feel is that you're counting as using ALL your lv3 spells for haste. Which I feel is unreasonable, bards with 3 or 4 lv3 spells known will probably want to use one of them.

Also another thing is that casting a spell of haste that lasts for 10 rounds that you only use 3 rounds of isn't better than only having 3 rounds of haste.

So taking in that with 9 rounds you can likely cover 3 fights of 3 rounds at lv7 you have three fights with haste to spells 2, and at lv9 you have 3 fights with haste to spells probably 3.

And the other thing to consider is what other uses of performance do you have? Both the song of marching and of strength aren't really that helpful, so you just have your inspired rage. Which having 9 rounds which is like 3 fights of it up is all you really need and you can take extra rounds if you want 4 fights worth at lv7 (which PFS skalds get for free).

What other lv3 spells do you have besides haste? Good hope, displacement, and see invisibility, plus more depending on what you want for your character. Tons of use if not locked into all slots used for haste.


Chess Pwn wrote:

The thing to consider I feel is that you're counting as using ALL your lv3 spells for haste. Which I feel is unreasonable, bards with 3 or 4 lv3 spells known will probably want to use one of them.

Indeed.

That is why I said that Bard A had "very limited 3rd level spell slots" at level 7 and "limited 3rd level spell slots" at 9th. It's also why I said that Bard B had stronger combat options at level 7, but they fade quickly.

Blazing Rondo masterpiece definitely starts out as a stronger combat option for rocket tag. Resources spent with a focus should help that focus, so that makes sense. The advantage definitely goes away over time as the bard gets more spell slots to use.

Blazing Rondo is a strong masterpiece option, I think we both agree. We are trying to break things, so looking at the strongest is good.

Is it overpowering strong? That's the debate.

Position #2 - Zero power problems.

Position #3 - I don't think it is grossly more powerful than what is already available to vanilla bard, and that power also fades away.


Rory wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:

The thing to consider I feel is that you're counting as using ALL your lv3 spells for haste. Which I feel is unreasonable, bards with 3 or 4 lv3 spells known will probably want to use one of them.

Position #3 - I don't think it is grossly more powerful than what is already available to vanilla bard, and that power also fades away.

See I don't see the power as fading. This is only getting better as they level. At lv10 their haste is giving more bonuses than haste AND is now at 4 fights of 3 rounds a day.

Cause like performance rounds weren't going to be used anyways. Without masterpieces you quickly never run out of rounds, so spending those for a super-haste is always the stronger choice.

Scarab Sages

Chess Pwn wrote:
Rory wrote:


Bard A has the Haste spell known.
Bard B picks the Blazing Rondo masterpiece instead.

At level 7:

- Bard A can Haste 2 fights a day for 14 rounds total, has effectively many more Bardic Performance rounds per day for other things, is very limited on 3rd level spell slots

- Bard B can Haste X fights per day for 9 rounds total, is limited on effective rounds of Bardic Performance for other things, has full usage of 3rd level spell slots

At level 9:

- Bard A can Haste 4 fights a day for 36 rounds total, has effectively many more Bardic Performance rounds per day for other things, is limited on 3rd level spell slots

- Bard B can Haste X fights per day for 11 rounds total, is limited on effective rounds of Bardic Performance for other things, has full usage of 3rd level spell slots

I'd definitely say Bard B starts with stronger combat options at level 7, but they fade quickly with levels (3rd and higher spell slots). If other use of Bardic Performance is considered, Bard A will shine.

The thing to consider I feel is that you're counting as using ALL your lv3 spells for haste. Which I feel is unreasonable, bards with 3 or 4 lv3 spells known will probably want to use one of them.

Also another thing is that casting a spell of haste that lasts for 10 rounds that you only use 3 rounds of isn't better than only having 3 rounds of haste.

So taking in that with 9 rounds you can likely cover 3 fights of 3 rounds at lv7 you have three fights with haste to spells 2, and at lv9 you have 3 fights with haste to spells probably 3.

And the other thing to consider is what other uses of performance do you have? Both the song of marching and of strength aren't really that helpful, so you just have your inspired rage. Which having 9 rounds which is like 3 fights of it up is all you really need and you can take extra rounds if you want 4 fights worth at lv7 (which PFS skalds get for free).

What other lv3 spells do you have besides haste? Good hope, displacement, and see...

There are some other differences in "Haste" granted by Blazing Rondo...

- Everyone using it has to be within 60 feet of the Bard...
- If the Bard is prevented from continuing the performance, the "Haste" ends. So enemies may just target the Bard to end the Masterpiece.
- If the Masterpiece is ended before the combat ends, but after three rounds, any creature that was "hasted" must succeed at a Fortitude Save (DC of the Masterpiece) or be fatigued for twice as many rounds as they were "Hasted". (even more reason for the Monsters to attack the performing Bard...

So, while it has some good sides, it also has some down sides too.


Chess Pwn wrote:

See I don't see the power as fading. This is only getting better as they level. At lv10 their haste is giving more bonuses than haste AND is now at 4 fights of 3 rounds a day.

Cause like performance rounds weren't going to be used anyways. Without masterpieces you quickly never run out of rounds, so spending those for a super-haste is always the stronger choice.

Or, it could last for two fights of 6 rounds. Whereas, the level 10 bard using Haste can crank out Haste for 5-6 fights of 10 rounds each (this is the extreme end). The ability fades in that regard. Also, the Haste spell can be used as pre-combat buffing potential at level 10, which is golden.

At level 10, the masterpiece is +1 more to hit and +1 more to reflex saves, which is more powerful than the Haste spell. It also means that the bard cannot be giving +3 skill rolls to the party or using Suggestion out of combat on a whim. It also diminishes usage of other Masterpieces as a potential. Seems fairly equitable to me.


Rory wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:

See I don't see the power as fading. This is only getting better as they level. At lv10 their haste is giving more bonuses than haste AND is now at 4 fights of 3 rounds a day.

Cause like performance rounds weren't going to be used anyways. Without masterpieces you quickly never run out of rounds, so spending those for a super-haste is always the stronger choice.

Or, it could last for two fights of 6 rounds.

Why are your hasted fights taking so long?

The competence bonus isn't worth using for it's cost and suggestion is kinda bad if you don't have a high charisma.
Like those are things I've seen tried to be used once I think in over the last 2 years of actively playing with bards. The only bardic performance I've seen is inspire courage or thudercall. Everything else might as well not exists for the bards I've seen, so needing to not use these things they don't use to use something good is a pure plus for them.


I think everyone is skipping over the fact it's quickly a move/ swift action to start too.

Which is vastly superior to casting haste, no matter how many rounds per day.


Chess Pwn wrote:

Why are your hasted fights taking so long?

- Pre-Combat or Early-in-Combat Buffing

- Chase Events
- Different Terrain Encounters
- Invisible Foe Finding
- Positioning Requirements
- Bad Dice
- Enemy Damage Spikes
- Enemy Counter Spells
- Mixed Party vs. the All Weapon Squad
etc.

There are many potential reasons. Mostly it is due to more frivolous and early usage of Haste at higher levels rather than keeping it bound on a tight leash.

Cavall wrote:

I think everyone is skipping over the fact it's quickly a move/ swift action to start too.

Which is vastly superior to casting haste, no matter how many rounds per day.

Level 13 is more towards end game, but you have a valid point.

Swift Action - Blazing Rondo
Move Action - Inspire Courage
Standard Action - Free

A vanilla bard would need a Lesser Rod of Quicken Spell in hand to match that.

EDIT: Just an errant thought...

At level 13, for the cost of the Lesser Rod of Extend Spell and Gloves of Spell Storing to treat it as if "in hand", the whole party could eliminate the need for Haste to be cast by all of them having Boots of Speed.

Sure, Blazing Rondo is +1 more to hit and Reflex saves, but that isn't much considering activation cost (even as a swift action - which can be pretty powerful by that level) and opportunity cost (group healing potential is now available with Bardic Performance rounds as well).


Yeah which is massively huge cost (well less so for lesser rods and up to level 6 max spells but).. It's certainly more expensive a cost than a spell known.

Sure level 13 is closer to end game. But blazing rondo is 7 ranks to take, and songs start as a move action (which is to say they can) at the same level. The lists are very specific that if it says you can start as standard it can go move and standard.

So really, this song is haste STARTS as a move action.

You could cast slow and give the group haste in the same action, for example.


Is everyone ignoring the "action" line in a masterpiece's writeup?

Blazing Rondo, for example, specifically says it takes 1 standard action. Even if it counted as a performance, you still couldn't start it up as a move action and also cast Slow.


Cavall wrote:

Sure level 13 is closer to end game. But blazing rondo is 7 ranks to take, and songs start as a move action (which is to say they can) at the same level. The lists are very specific that if it says you can start as standard it can go move and standard.

So really, this song is haste STARTS as a move action.

You could cast slow and give the group haste in the same action, for example.

(you meant "same round" and not "same action")

Correct. That is the way masterpieces work with spells. You can do the same with Inspire Courage and Slow spell as well.

However, the FAQ is how masterpieces work with bardic performances.


shaventalz wrote:

Is everyone ignoring the "action" line in a masterpiece's writeup?

Blazing Rondo, for example, specifically says it takes 1 standard action. Even if it counted as a performance, you still couldn't start it up as a move action and also cast Slow.

If a masterpiece takes a standard action or less, then the bard ability to start performance for less (7th and 13th) applies as well. Longer masterpieces never shrink to start, though.


ohako wrote:
shaventalz wrote:

Is everyone ignoring the "action" line in a masterpiece's writeup?

Blazing Rondo, for example, specifically says it takes 1 standard action. Even if it counted as a performance, you still couldn't start it up as a move action and also cast Slow.

If a masterpiece takes a standard action or less, then the bard ability to start performance for less (7th and 13th) applies as well. Longer masterpieces never shrink to start, though.

When actually doubling bardsong+masterpiece, yes. It doesn't let you cast and also start a masterpiece, though, which some were trying.


Hey, here's a silly question.

Bardic masterpieces are like performances in that they cannot be disrupted except for some nasty edge cases (death, sleep, paralysis, stun, etc). Nowhere in that list does it mention 'grappled'. However, the grapple rules say you can't do anything that requires two hands while you're grappled.

1) If I've already spent the action to start the symphony of the Elysian heart, and am maintaining it as a free action, and a vampire comes up and grapples me, can I get out of the grapple for free (per freedom of movement)? Or does my masterpiece end, because the free action to maintain the masterpiece involves holding and using my instrument?

2) Say I'm dancing the pallavi of Nirvana's blossoming. I haven't spent the full 3 rounds dancing it yet, and I get grappled again by a (desperate) vampire. Can I continue the dance with my feet? Or am I prevented from continuing the pallavi because my hands are occupied?


To Summarize:

Blazing Rondo is a case that will need to be looked at by the FAQ committee.

Blazing Rondo: Haste Masterpiece
- Requires Level 7
- Costs level 3 spell known (e.g. replaces Haste spell known)
- Inferior to Haste spell effects (shorter duration, chained to bard, negative effect potential) until level 9
- Considered a strong combat boost at early levels as a move/standard action, since Haste costs a VALUABLE spell slot
- Power fades some as more level 3+ spell slots come online
- Power increases at level 10 giving +1 to hit and reflex about Haste
- Greatly reduces any other usage of Bardic Performance except in combat
- Level 13 presents swift/move/standard action haste that costs a Vanilla Bard (or the party) ~50k to duplicate

Did I miss anything?


Rory wrote:

To Summarize:

Blazing Rondo is a case that will need to be looked at by the FAQ committee.

Blazing Rondo: Haste Masterpiece
- Requires Level 7
- Costs level 3 spell known (e.g. replaces Haste spell known)
- Inferior to Haste spell effects (shorter duration, chained to bard, negative effect potential) until level 9
- Considered a strong combat boost at early levels as a move/standard action, since Haste costs a VALUABLE spell slot
- Power fades some as more level 3+ spell slots come online
- Power increases at level 10 giving +1 to hit and reflex about Haste
- Greatly reduces any other usage of Bardic Performance except in combat
- Level 13 presents swift action haste that costs a Vanilla Bard (or the party) ~50k to duplicate

Did I miss anything?

Yes, the "action" line in the masterpiece writeup.

Blazing Rondo can never be started faster than one standard action, so you never get "swift action Haste" (or even move action Haste.) You could potentially still use your move/swift actions for more "normal" performances (depending on how this gets ruled), but the masterpiece is essentially an unquickenable Haste.


shaventalz wrote:
Blazing Rondo can never be started faster than one standard action, so you never get "swift action Haste" (or even move action Haste.) You could potentially still use your move/swift actions for more "normal" performances (depending on how this gets ruled), but the masterpiece is essentially an unquickenable Haste.

Here is how masterpieces work.

Action: This line indicates the type of action performing the masterpiece requires. If it only requires a standard action to activate, being able to activate a bardic performance more quickly (at 7th level, activation is a move action, and at 13th, it becomes a swift action) applies to the masterpiece as well.

Here is Blazing Rondo (for reference):

Blazing Rondo

Thundering rhythms quicken your allies’ movements, but the effort of keeping up with the beat is wearying.

Prerequisite: Perform (oratory) 7 ranks or Perform (percussion) 7 ranks.

Cost: Feat or 3rd-level bard spell known.

Effect: Up to one ally per bard level gains the benefits of haste while you maintain this masterpiece, except the bonus to AC and on attack rolls and Reflex saves is one-fifth of your bard level. These allies must be within 60 feet of you to receive this benefit. When you cease performing this masterpiece, any creature that received this benefit for at least 3 rounds must succeed at a Fortitude save at this masterpiece’s DC or be fatigued for twice as many rounds as they were affected.

Use: 1 round of bardic performance per round.

Action: 1 standard action.


Rory wrote:
Cavall wrote:

Sure level 13 is closer to end game. But blazing rondo is 7 ranks to take, and songs start as a move action (which is to say they can) at the same level. The lists are very specific that if it says you can start as standard it can go move and standard.

So really, this song is haste STARTS as a move action.

You could cast slow and give the group haste in the same action, for example.

(you meant "same round" and not "same action")

Correct. That is the way masterpieces work with spells. You can do the same with Inspire Courage and Slow spell as well.

However, the FAQ is how masterpieces work with bardic performances.

Yes. So. This would be important. Swift for inspire, move to Rondo, standard available.

You see how the FAQ becomes important then on these actions.


Cavall wrote:

Yes. So. This would be important. Swift for inspire, move to Rondo, standard available.

You see how the FAQ becomes important then on these actions.

I agreed with you above on this above, said it was a valid point, stated the costs associated for a Vanilla Bard to match it and listed it out in the summary. Or at least, I tried my best to capture it properly. :-)


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Rory wrote:
shaventalz wrote:
Blazing Rondo can never be started faster than one standard action, so you never get "swift action Haste" (or even move action Haste.) You could potentially still use your move/swift actions for more "normal" performances (depending on how this gets ruled), but the masterpiece is essentially an unquickenable Haste.

Here is how masterpieces work.

Action: This line indicates the type of action performing the masterpiece requires. If it only requires a standard action to activate, being able to activate a bardic performance more quickly (at 7th level, activation is a move action, and at 13th, it becomes a swift action) applies to the masterpiece as well.

*rereads*

Right you are. I didn't see that section of the rules, and retract that objection.


Cavall wrote:

I think everyone is skipping over the fact it's quickly a move/ swift action to start too.

Which is vastly superior to casting haste, no matter how many rounds per day.

If we are discussing option 3, which I think we are, then we are not skipping over it, it is simply not the case. If it were option 3 then it would not be a performance and we could not start it faster.

As for the person who said that blazing rondo+inspire courage+slow is strong, I agree, although this assumes precasting of virtuoso performance, which means you've spent the first round of battle unbuffed.

What it looks like more right now is:

Swift action inspire courage, standard action virtuoso performance, move action blazing rondo. A powerful opening for sure, but at least you're not debuffing.

There's also other fun combos to be had if you have virtuoso performance up, such as canticle of joy+dirge of doom+ Resonating word/Ki shout (dirge of doom first) for a whopping minus 8 to saves right before a debuff.

But then that also takes massive prep. In my experience, if the PC's start the fight with 1round/level buffs on, that fight is pretty much done. And we can't use that as a baseline for power comparison.


Rory wrote:

To Summarize:

Blazing Rondo is a case that will need to be looked at by the FAQ committee.

Blazing Rondo: Haste Masterpiece
- Requires Level 7
- Costs level 3 spell known (e.g. replaces Haste spell known)
- Inferior to Haste spell effects (shorter duration, chained to bard, negative effect potential) until level 9
- Considered a strong combat boost at early levels as a move/standard action, since Haste costs a VALUABLE spell slot
- Power fades some as more level 3+ spell slots come online
- Power increases at level 10 giving +1 to hit and reflex about Haste
- Greatly reduces any other usage of Bardic Performance except in combat
- Level 13 presents swift/move/standard action haste that costs a Vanilla Bard (or the party) ~50k to duplicate

Did I miss anything?

Allow me to disagree.

In the current scenario, Blazing rondo does not stack with inspire courage (baring specific action consuming spells such as virtuoso performance or shadowbard), and so in almost all cases having Inspire Courage + Haster on is gonna be better.

Even worse, if you DO have virtuoso performance up, dirge of doom or Inspire Heroics/Greatness on your Hammer is gonna be a better call than starting a haste effect on your group, because you can, you know, just cast haste. Or have your familiar use a wand of haste.

In Scenario #3 outlined earlier, Blazing rondo can be used at the same time as inspire courage but always takes a standard to activate, takes bardic rounds per round and takes a skill commitment to unlock. It becomes ''the bard's haste''.

I for one find that freaking awesome, yet still balanced.


AlastarOG wrote:
Rory wrote:

To Summarize:

Blazing Rondo is a case that will need to be looked at by the FAQ committee.

Blazing Rondo: Haste Masterpiece
- Requires Level 7
- Costs level 3 spell known (e.g. replaces Haste spell known)
- Inferior to Haste spell effects (shorter duration, chained to bard, negative effect potential) until level 9
- Considered a strong combat boost at early levels as a move/standard action, since Haste costs a VALUABLE spell slot
- Power fades some as more level 3+ spell slots come online
- Power increases at level 10 giving +1 to hit and reflex about Haste
- Greatly reduces any other usage of Bardic Performance except in combat
- Level 13 presents swift/move/standard action haste that costs a Vanilla Bard (or the party) ~50k to duplicate

Did I miss anything?

Allow me to disagree.

In the current scenario, Blazing rondo does not stack with inspire courage (baring specific action consuming spells such as virtuoso performance or shadowbard), and so in almost all cases having Inspire Courage + Haster on is gonna be better.

Even worse, if you DO have virtuoso performance up, dirge of doom or Inspire Heroics/Greatness on your Hammer is gonna be a better call than starting a haste effect on your group, because you can, you know, just cast haste. Or have your familiar use a wand of haste.

In Scenario #3 outlined earlier, Blazing rondo can be used at the same time as inspire courage but always takes a standard to activate, takes bardic rounds per round and takes a skill commitment to unlock. It becomes ''the bard's haste''.

I for one find that freaking awesome, yet still balanced.

You must not be following along because it's been proven that it's not "always takes a standard action to activate" but that it's activation time goes down as the bard can inspire faster.

So it's haste that can come out faster than haste gives bigger bonuses than haste, takes a skill commitment.

So what's the reasoning for the bard NOT to take this and take haste instead if they go at the same time as inspire courage? Not enough skill points?


Believe me Chessy I've been following :)

In Option 3, masterpieces are not considered performances, and thus cannot go faster.

In current standard, masterpieces are considered performances, can go faster, but cannot be up (baring specific circumstances) at the same time as inspire courage.


AlastarOG wrote:

Believe me Chessy I've been following :)

In Option 3, masterpieces are not considered performances, and thus cannot go faster.

In current standard, masterpieces are considered performances, can go faster, but cannot be up (baring specific circumstances) at the same time as inspire courage.

Masterpieces not being considered performances in no ways changes the line,

"If it only requires a standard action to activate, being able to activate a bardic performance more quickly (at 7th level, activation is a move action, and at 13th, it becomes a swift action) applies to the masterpiece as well."

This could be treated as spells for all we care, if the activation is a standard it gets faster when our bardic performance goes faster.


Chess Pwn wrote:
AlastarOG wrote:

Believe me Chessy I've been following :)

In Option 3, masterpieces are not considered performances, and thus cannot go faster.

In current standard, masterpieces are considered performances, can go faster, but cannot be up (baring specific circumstances) at the same time as inspire courage.

Masterpieces not being considered performances in no ways changes the line,

"If it only requires a standard action to activate, being able to activate a bardic performance more quickly (at 7th level, activation is a move action, and at 13th, it becomes a swift action) applies to the masterpiece as well."

This could be treated as spells for all we care, if the activation is a standard it gets faster when our bardic performance goes faster.

In option 3: [...] They do not interact

Refer to bolded statement. In what way shape or form is this sentence a justification that the masterpieces under ruling 3 would activate faster, if they are not considered performances and it is specified that they do not interact.

I think it's pretty obvious that option 3 ruling would prevent faster activation, this being the opportunity cost of this choice.

If you decide to try to rules lawyer it so it still starts fast then OF COURSE it's gonna be broken.


Nevertheless you do bring up the need for clarification, I'd reestablish the options as follow:

**********************************************************

Position #1 - Masterpieces are Bardic Performance are Masterpieces

Position #1 FAQ:

Masterpieces are bardic performances and follow bardic performance rules. If a bard starts a new masterpiece or other bardic performance, any existing masterpiece effect immediately ends. A bard does not need to spend a free action to maintain masterpieces, nor does a masterpiece effect immediately end if the bard falls unconscious, etc. The masterpiece effects linger until their duration expires, or until a new masterpiece or other bardic performance is started.

Example: If a bard has activated Triple Time on an ally, whenever they start to activate another bardic performance (or masterpiece), Triple Time wears off immediately, no matter where the ally is.

Position #2 - Masterpieces are unusual applications of the bardic performance ability. Any masterpiece that is completed and has a duration independent of the bard no longer counts against the maintained performance limit.

Position #2 FAQ:

Masterpieces can be separated into two categories: maintained and independent. A masterpiece is maintained if it requires the bard to spend actions in subsequent rounds or else the masterpiece will end. A masterpiece is independent of the bard if no action must be taken after the masterpiece is activated for the effect to continue for its entire duration.

A maintained masterpiece immediately ends if a bard starts a new masterpiece or bardic performance. An independent masterpiece does not end if a bard starts a new masterpiece or bardic performance. It lasts until its duration expires.

Example: If a bard has completed the activation of the Triple Time masterpiece on an ally, the ally retains the bonus even if the bard starts another Bardic Performance or Masterpiece.

Example: If a bard has the masterpiece The Depths of the Mountain activated, since it is a maintained Masterpiece, the bard must end that masterpiece if Inspire Courage is started.

Position #3 - Masterpieces are unusual applications of the bardic performance ability. They are not actual Bardic Performances.

Position #3 FAQ:

Masterpieces and Bardic Performances are independent of each other. They do not interact nor do they prevent or cancel each other. It is not possible for a bard of sufficient level to activate masterpieces faster if they have a base activation of 1 standard action. Both can be active at the same time, although they each require separate activation actions.

Example: A bard has Inspire Courage going in battle. The battle is almost finished, so the bard starts the masterpiece Triple Time while Inspire Courage is still up and running. Rounds of Bardic Performance are spent simultaneously on both abilities.

Example 2: A bard has Inspire Courage going in battle. He wants to start Blazing Rondo, he has to take a standard action, but otherwise both inspire courage and Blazing Rondo take effect simultaneously


It would not cancel out the fact it's specifically called out in masterpieces as bring the case.

No option looked at invalidated the fact they were specifically written like this.

So no. Option 1 2 or 3.. It's still swift or move to start a standard action song at later levels.

They are written to do this.


Cavall wrote:

It would not cancel out the fact it's specifically called out in masterpieces as bring the case.

No option looked at invalidated the fact they were specifically written like this.

So no. Option 1 2 or 3.. It's still swift or move to start a standard action song at later levels.

They are written to do this.

And we are suggesting an Errata in the rules. Thus you cannot take unretroed rules and apply them to retroed rules.

Nevertheless I see you and chessy's point, I have taken the liberty of updating option 3.


AlastarOG wrote:

And we are suggesting an Errata in the rules. Thus you cannot take unretroed rules and apply them to retroed rules.

Nevertheless I see you and chessy's point, I have taken the liberty of updating option 3.

I'm on the fence with the changes. Masterpieces are a specialized application of the bardic performance ability (using performance rounds to fuel their abilities) and Lingering Song can be used with some of them. Allowing swift/move actions to activate a masterpiece might be acceptable (or at least allowable) unless we have a (multiple, actually) really compelling reason(s) not to.


At this point we have a divergence of opinions.

Options 1 and 2 are both legit and build on the existing foundation. They are FAQs answers and completely appropriate.

Option 3 is an ease of use errata. Allowing move and Swift action activation whithout it canceling other inspirations is clearly overpowered. You could dish out quickened spells every round and I'm not talking about haste here. I'm talking wall spells aevery round as Swift's or bestow curse at range every round.

You can't have both, no matter how tempting, it's simply not balanced. Now I'd like to present the suggestions in an official manner to paizo, but if it's stupid OP it's not gonna even be considered, so I'd rather we agree on that before discussing forward.


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I'm glad folks are getting use out of Blazing Rondo, at least. I didn't know if it'd be popular at all. ^_^


Isabelle Lee wrote:
I'm glad folks are getting use out of Blazing Rondo, at least. I didn't know if it'd be popular at all. ^_^

Your tone seems to suggest you helped design it? I don't want to seem disrespectful but I'll have to disagree here.

As is, it's not very useful imo (as we've discussed earlier). What the discussion was about earlier was how strong it would be if it could be started as a swift action simultaneously with inspire courage. (An option I consider to fall in the stupid OP category)

If it were under option 3 errata ruling, it would be freaking awesome. You could use it instead of haste and it would have that bardique feelz to it. So I love the design idea, it's dripping with flavor and I can imagine it in my head.

Rules wise it falls under masterpieces and as is masterpieces are almost always going to be inferior to standard performances such as inspire courage (it's just so strong!)


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Isabelle Lee wrote:
I'm glad folks are getting use out of Blazing Rondo, at least. I didn't know if it'd be popular at all. ^_^

I think it's pretty awesome. The whole poi t to the FAQ is to make it and all masterpieces more popular.


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Cavall wrote:
Isabelle Lee wrote:
I'm glad folks are getting use out of Blazing Rondo, at least. I didn't know if it'd be popular at all. ^_^
I think it's pretty awesome. The whole poi t to the FAQ is to make it and all masterpieces more popular.

Precisely :-)

Silver Crusade

I have the feeling we're at it the wrong way. Blazing Rondo needs no FAQ.

To be clear, I'm talking about option #3.

Blazing Rondo starting as a move at 7 and a swift at 13 is incorporated in the masterpiece itself. So a level 13 bard can haste the party as a swift action, no matter what option we pick.

The further question is whether it's overpowered or not that at level 13, said bard is able to start two masterpieces and a performance in one round, which, for earlier named red tongue skald (I'm not that knowledgeable on bards) might look like this:
Swift - Blazing Rondo (party is hasted with better bonuses)
Move - raging song (party gets rage bonuses, 4 rage powers, and a rogue talent)
Standard - Battle Song of the People's Revolt (party gets a teamwork feat)

Cost to maintain: three bardic performance rounds per actual round, which, assuming cha 22, would mean 10 rounds per day.

10 rounds per day is nothing... Intelligent enemies will see the sweat on the skald's brow and use evasive guerilla tactics for a while, and the skald will be burned up after encounter one or two.
If the bard/skald decides to start up even more masterpieces in the next round, they'll burn up even quicker.

In light of this being very manageable by a skilled GM, I can in no way consider this overpowered. It's just a way for bards 'n skalds to go nova.

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